I disagree. I’m 54, have owned and been involved with horses since I was kid, and owned Arabians since 1983. Show ring issues play a significant part with why people are not renewing their membership.
I see similarities between the TWH and the Arabian as trainers demand more and more action out of their horses in order to win. As that continues, the original movement looks nothing like what has been created using pads, weights, etc. .
[QUOTE=sunridge1;6583057]
So are you saying that picture posted on ABN has better farrier care than average?
Then the following posts by TN are wrong. That there isn’t a huge time frame to rehab these dished, contracted, crumbling hooves. I have to tell you I disagree, since I’ve had to do a few over the years. It takes a year of good trimming to get them back.
What if they are sore equally? How can they limp? If they are driven forward in a head set that never moves, how do they express pain? Don’t tell me horses aren’t stoic enough to work through pain. They were evolved to work through pain or they were dinner. That is exactly why the TWH’s and all other competitive disciplines can use pain to gain. The perfect storm on a prey animal.
I just don’t buy it, I actually have seen the kind of pain they will work through and tolerate.
ETA and yes they do mask pain. Does cobra venom ring any bells?[/QUOTE]
Mary…your last statement just discounted EVERYTHING you have said. SORING DOES NOT WORK…it causes lameness, limping…and therefore if you have a horse that is doing that you want to give it something to stop the pain so it will not limp…
[QUOTE=kathy s.;6583089]
I disagree. I’m 54, have owned and been involved with horses since I was kid, and owned Arabians since 1983. Show ring issues play a significant part with why people are not renewing their membership.
I see similarities between the TWH and the Arabian as trainers demand more and more action out of their horses in order to win. As that continues, the original movement looks nothing like what has been created using pads, weights, etc. .[/QUOTE]
Kathy
Arab. Morgans. Saddlebreds. Hackneys have issues but soring is NOT one of them. Trainers, owners, riders etc try their darndest to make sure their horse is NOT sore for any reason.
The AHA issue is another thread …not applicable to this one
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6583128]
Mary…your last statement just discounted EVERYTHING you have said. SORING DOES NOT WORK…it causes lameness, limping…and therefore if you have a horse that is doing that you want to give it something to stop the pain so it will not limp…[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately for horses they are very adept at learning conditioned response. It’s the whole science behind horse training. Hence soring continues in TWH’s and in part the reason they can pass inspection.
I swear one of these days I’m going to conduct my own experiment with pressure shoeing. Just to see what indeed a highly strung horse kept in a stall for 23 hours and 40 minutes a day, fed the best feed, an absolute locked in head set along with a conditioned response to go forward through anything. I think they would probably be REALLY light on their feet and I think they would go forward until you told them to stop. In fact I know my best horse would.
Why don’t BL TWH ‘limp’? Are they really that good at soring equally in the front? Please don’t say the head nod, it really is part of the gait even though it is extreme with the BL. Could it be that soring does not equal lameness?:eek:
I see NO reason why Kathy can’t talk about AHA, FairFax you brought the ASB into this thread pages and pages back. the subject has been stacks and pkges,for a few pages now and an admenment that speaks to the action devices being include into the HPA,its good conversation FairFax don’t ya think. even if its only for gaited horses,oh could you be afraid it mean a 3 gaited or a 5 gaited ASB. you seem to be of the mind that you and only you have any knowledge of horses, hooves ect.well let me bust your little bubble buddy,their are alot of ppl here on coth that have you beat HANDS DOWN.
they know this is about the TWH SSH racking horses.
[QUOTE=sunridge1;6583200]
Why don’t BL TWH ‘limp’? Are they really that good at soring equally in the front? Please don’t say the head nod, it really is part of the gait even though it is extreme with the BL. Could it be that soring does not equal lameness?:eek:[/QUOTE]
Mary are you really this clueless? It is because a Walking Horse only has to perform a 4 beat gait in the show ring. They never perform a 2 beat gait. They don’t have to perform a gait that requires a moment of suspension, a period of “jumping” from one pair of legs to the other. When a horse is doing a running walk they alternate between having 2 hooves on the ground to 3 hooves on the ground. They don’t “limp” because they always have at least 2 hooves on the ground to support them.
I’ve known many horse owners consult with their vets on proper shoeing. And I’ve never heard of a farrier who wouldn’t work with a vet. Vet/farrier combo’s are usually done when there is a lameness issue. When the article said “should be determined by veterinarians, not those in the pay of trainers”, I took that to mean that shoeing should be decided by someone whose main interest is the health of the horse, not someone (a trainer) whose main interest is a blue ribbon so they can keep clients.
BTW, to those who say that trotting horses can’t be sored because they would come up lame don’t understand how walkers are sored. They too, would show up lame only if one foot was sore. Soreing both feet equally prevents the horse from being “off” and having an uneven gait. This is how big lick people get away with claiming that their horses aren’t sored. I just don’t know what effect it would have on a trotting horse’s gait.
Regarding this picture http://forums.arabianbreeders.net/topic/18388-type-of-shoe-used/page__st__10
Crap, they’re going in the same direction of the big lick.
[QUOTE=Renae;6582919]
Malda, I hope vets are never put in charge of telling us how to shoe our horses. Few of them specialize in farrier work and the mechinics of how every type of sport and performance horse moves and how shoeing can help and hinder them. That should be between a farrier and whoever is in charge of the horse, wether it be a trainer or owner. Vets do not dictate to a jumper or eventer trainer/rider when they can use studs and what type to use, vets do not tell a reining trainer/rider wether or not they can use sliding plates, vets should not be in charge of telling a saddle seat or gaited trainer/rider under what conditions and in what manner they may shoe their horse./QUOTE]
When I was 4 or 5 y/o, we had family friends that raised and showed TWH. This was around 1962-63. They had a son of Merry Go Boy and he was just beautiful. I remember watching the husband ride that stallion, and his wife lamenting the horse just “wouldn’t walk.” Heck, he was walking just fine to me. 
How things have changed…
[QUOTE=Renae;6583308]
Mary are you really this clueless? It is because a Walking Horse only has to perform a 4 beat gait in the show ring. They never perform a 2 beat gait. They don’t have to perform a gait that requires a moment of suspension, a period of “jumping” from one pair of legs to the other. When a horse is doing a running walk they alternate between having 2 hooves on the ground to 3 hooves on the ground. They don’t “limp” because they always have at least 2 hooves on the ground to support them.[/QUOTE]
You are just repeating what you’ve told. You don’t really know. Just saying it over and over doesn’t make it true. I know some people will do anything for that prize. Especially those big money classes with those young horses.
I see uneven gaits in the show ring ALL the time. Only but a few trot square these days. Maybe they never did trot square and I never noticed in my younger days. I don’t think brilliance should ever trump evenness but it does when all you see is how high they can go.
IMO the Arabian Park horses are the absolute worst. They LOOK like TWH’s and many are not even trotting anymore. That is not the Arabian I grew up with.
Mary…for you to even imply the Park Arabian moves anything close to the BL means either you have never seen a BL nor a Park horse or you are just trying to “join the TWH anti soring group and get a blue ribbon”
I will repeat the Sun will come up tomorrow. Can I prove it today? NOPE…but it will
You are the one saying over and over with absolutely no proof and those of us who have decades with Arabs and performance Saddlebreds DO KNOW.
YOu do NOT WANT TO SORE A TROTTING HORSE.
Again…over on TROT it was discussed to death by the sport horse group trying to prove why their discipline was superior and they were proven wrong BY QUALIFIED vets who specialize in lameness.
[QUOTE=aarpaso;6583242]
I see NO reason why Kathy can’t talk about AHA, FairFax you brought the ASB into this thread pages and pages back. the subject has been stacks and pkges,for a few pages now and an admenment that speaks to the action devices being include into the HPA,its good conversation FairFax don’t ya think. even if its only for gaited horses,oh could you be afraid it mean a 3 gaited or a 5 gaited ASB. you seem to be of the mind that you and only you have any knowledge of horses, hooves ect.well let me bust your little bubble buddy,their are alot of ppl here on coth that have you beat HANDS DOWN.
they know this is about the TWH SSH racking horses.[/QUOTE]
Okay…lets discuss the AHA lack of Class A shows, the abundance (too many) classes at Nationals and the cost of showing…darn…nothing about soring there and there isn’t anything about soring with Arabians but I don’t mind taking this thread in a different direction…
Lots of people have me beat hands down and that is why they are not posting about soring ASB’s, Arabs, Morgans etc. They know that is NOT what a troting horse requires.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6583609]
Mary…for you to even imply the Park Arabian moves anything close to the BL means either you have never seen a BL nor a Park horse or you are just trying to “join the TWH anti soring group and get a blue ribbon”
I will repeat the Sun will come up tomorrow. Can I prove it today? NOPE…but it will
You are the one saying over and over with absolutely no proof and those of us who have decades with Arabs and performance Saddlebreds DO KNOW.
YOu do NOT WANT TO SORE A TROTTING HORSE.
Again…over on TROT it was discussed to death by the sport horse group trying to prove why their discipline was superior and they were proven wrong BY QUALIFIED vets who specialize in lameness.[/QUOTE]
You are blind. If you can’t see the lack of true trot in these Park Arabians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owwXRlBn7UE
[QUOTE=sunridge1;6583645]
You are blind. If you can’t see the lack of true trot in these Park Arabians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owwXRlBn7UE[/QUOTE]
You do not have decades in the ASB business. Not to mention, showing in the states. I on the other hand owned my first ASB at age 13 (1973). I’ve been here through the progression from low backs to fire extinguishers to big purses in the futurity’s.
I was personally videoing and looking at your favorite stallion before you even owned an ASB. I think I know my breed and why they are trained the way they are.
I looked up Arabian Park horses. You’re right, they are getting the “flinging” foot of the big lick horses. Especially the grey one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owwXRlBn7UE
Then compare it to the Saddlebred, who the Arabs were basically copying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwdaCZFc2_g
Another good reason the big lick is under scrutiny. Hopefully it will protect other breeds.
[QUOTE=sunridge1;6583579]
You are just repeating what you’ve told. You don’t really know. Just saying it over and over doesn’t make it true. I know some people will do anything for that prize. Especially those big money classes with those young horses.
I see uneven gaits in the show ring ALL the time. Only but a few trot square these days. Maybe they never did trot square and I never noticed in my younger days. I don’t think brilliance should ever trump evenness but it does when all you see is how high they can go.
IMO the Arabian Park horses are the absolute worst. They LOOK like TWH’s and many are not even trotting anymore. That is not the Arabian I grew up with.[/QUOTE]
Boucheron is phenomenal. As was his trainer, who actually uses dressage principles, so the horse CAN really be all he can be. And it shows on all of his horses. Very square and correct.
[QUOTE=sunridge1;6583658]
You do not have decades in the ASB business. Not to mention, showing in the states. I on the other hand owned my first ASB at age 13 (1973). I’ve been here through the progression from low backs to fire extinguishers to big purses in the futurity’s.
I was personally videoing and looking at your favorite stallion before you even owned an ASB. I think I know my breed and why they are trained the way they are.[/QUOTE]
You are correct regarding ASB’s as I did not co-purchase my first one until 2005 however showing in the states. I showed at the first U.S. Nationals in 1958 at Estes Park.
Problem with Park horses is not soring. It has been altered in such a manner that no one can truly qualify for it. The EP class is closer to the Park Horse.
I did move over to the Saddlebred for a variety of reasons however I had “hung around” them at shows from the east coast to the west for 40 years.
We used to have all breed shows.
I am always disappointed that you always will glum onto the negative…if someone says they saw an extinguisher used,…then you state EVERYONE does it…
This thread, however, is about soring…and there is no reason to sore a trotting horse. It has been explained and if you are unable to grasp why, then there is no sense in trying to give you any more information.
[QUOTE=kathy s.;6582755]
Here is a photo …http://forums.arabianbreeders.net/topic/18388-type-of-shoe-used/page__st__10[/QUOTE]
ive been busy with hay for a couple days, just getting caught up here. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Here are some of those words.
wonky angle
underrun heels
crumbling left foot
dark toe areas - laminae compromised ?
and the bands ( you know those “protective” bands that keep the shoe on)
This white footed horse shows the bruising above the bands and below where the hoof is growing down. That bruising can lead to abcesses and damage to the laminae (WLD,seedy toe,etc). You might not see this bruising on a dark hoofed horse til it grew down and the trim revealed it.
That is one shocking shoe job. :eek:
[QUOTE=sunridge1;6583645]
You are blind. If you can’t see the lack of true trot in these Park Arabians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owwXRlBn7UE[/QUOTE]
You say that is not a true trot. What, in your opinion is a true trot, and why is this not acceptable?
