It may have been explained but no one has been able to prove that it can’t be done. Just because someone ‘says’ it can’t be done? Sore does not mean the same as lame.
[QUOTE=sunridge1;6582493]
It may have been explained but no one has been able to prove that it can’t be done. Just because someone ‘says’ it can’t be done? Sore does not mean the same as lame.[/QUOTE]
Mary…this was discussed on TROT over and over and over. Dr Cindy LaCroix ( a specialist in lameness) through Kathleen Ross, explained the dynamics as to WHY it would NOT work.
What has been done is IF a horse becomes sore due to overwork, pain killers have been used. Of course REST is the best cure for soreness in trotting horses.]
You know that and why you continue to insinuate otherwise just to be part of a crowd and try and make others think you have something to say…is silly
You are above that and I hope not that desperate for attention that you will destroy your credibility
Folks;
The resignation of Dr. Mullins on the surface appears to be a good thing; I would like to share my thoughts. In my personal opinion, there have been many well-meaning, good people who have and do try to work diligently to earnestly improve this breed, I believe they have honorable intentions.
They are extravagantly courted by The Celebration intending to harvest them for their credibility, reputations and history of being respectable people in the horse community.
What I have observed is a system of well-orchestrated insidious undermining of these same people.
Over a period of time I believe these people start seeing the pattern of; for lack of a better description, dishonorable dealings, illegal behavior and the culture of corruption. Try as they may to do the honorable thing, they reach a point where I believe they realize that they are selling their soul to the devil.
I have personally seen this, dealt with it and knew what I was looking at when I saw it. I knew Dr. Meadows before he signed on to the Celebration, I have met and spoken with Dr. Mullins after he took the job, I have spoken to Ron Thomas and in all of them I discerned a pattern between all of them.
They all love this breed, I sensed they truly wanted to make a difference in this breed and felt they were the right person to help turn around the perceptions and traditions to become compliant, work with and not be evasive to the USDA.
There is an evil persona behind the curtain in all of this and must be dealt with, the good part about this is that I believe under the right circumstances these men will explain what they know.
There will be a day of reckoning with all of this soon, mark my word. So for now, let’s not jump up and down on seeing these people abandon the ship as my daughter said in another post, there is a reason for these people leaving, let’s wait and see how this all plays out.
a quote from Dr Mullins letter:
“I also know that you will be approached with a new proposal for SHOW HIO within the next few weeks. I believe this will help the Celebration with the financial burden of SHOW and will also potentially get the TWHNC out of the inspection business”.
This concerns me. Wonder what the puppet master has up his sleeve now. History shows that a new alphabet soup group always materializes after controversy, and dirty business goes on as usual.
What an emotional rollercoaster ride this has been. And its far from over.
When I looked up what a hose clamp was (still don’t know how it’s used on Arabs) I found this article.
http://www.justiceforspeedy.com/justiceforspeedyblog.php?s=whats-with-the-package-deals
Interesting comparison to the brides running for a dress. The writer isn’t talking about soring, but how the package itself can injure the horse, and how trainers, not vets, are deciding what to put on horses’ feet.
I thought the story about a big lick package being flung off and hitting a spectator was pretty funny, assuming the spectator was cheering for the big lick.
[QUOTE=kathy s.;6582246]
This makes me sick to my stomach, and furious. As an Arabian owner with youngsters bred to trot, I have watched this thread closely. Thanks to all of you that have been diligent in keeping this issue in the forefront. I was aware of some of the abusive practices, hoping TWH owners would keep the pressure on BL fans to stop it. You guys are making real progress and I for one, thank you.
AHA is loosing members at a rapid rate and part of it can be attributed to the excessive use of pads and hose clamps on our english horses. And I’ve recently learned of the use of pads on our WP horses as well. WTF?? I am afraid our breed may be heading towards soring if something isn’t done soon.
I refuse to put my horses through that. And before I get slammed, I breed for english horses with lots of bone b/c of how athletic they are. In fact, my yearling filly can trot over her ears but when she gets older I’ll take her towards working cow and reining. At least I can keep her barefoot or in plates with no problem.
Again, thanks for your diligence.[/QUOTE]
so it seems that the HR6388 is needed in more ways than one.
this sheds more light on why so many non twh folks are screaming foul.
thanks Malda very interesting story. i like the ginger Tee.
looks like the TWH soring issue will help other breeds too. WHO KNEW! the greedy bastards that do these things to a horse just for the money. thats WHO.
Soring a horse DOES NOT WORK on a trotting horse. Think about it…You would need to sore…then give them pain killers to stop the soring so they would not appear to be lame…
There are many OTHER issues with other breeds i.e. Arabs, Morgans and Saddlebreds, but soring is NOT ONE of them.
Arabs are restricted as to pads, weights etc under USEF rules. I would suggest you check them out.
Kathy S. DO YOUR HOMEWORK…AHA is losing members for a great number of issues. Soring performance horses is NOT one of them.
I know Tom Neese who wrote the post and also calls them clown shoes but he DOES NOT say soring is an issue. Doesn’t even mention soring.
Tom has shown on the National level and is also a brilliant eventer.
Aarpaso…start to do some learning…why not go to the USEF RULES and check out the breeds and see what the shoeing requirements and weights are.
I have used clown shoes and to be honest the stallion reduced his action and they were subsequently reduced WAY down. You are so desperate to drag other breeds into the TWH soring issue it is pathetic.
Others have come here bringin with them concerns about the BL troubles,bleeding into their show habits,FairFax you are the biggest one.As far as the USEF i wish they would get into the TWH SSH industry,alot of the problems would END.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6582814]
Soring a horse DOES NOT WORK on a trotting horse. Think about it…You would need to sore…then give them pain killers to stop the soring so they would not appear to be lame…
There are many OTHER issues with other breeds i.e. Arabs, Morgans and Saddlebreds, but soring is NOT ONE of them.
Arabs are restricted as to pads, weights etc under USEF rules. I would suggest you check them out.
Kathy S. DO YOUR HOMEWORK…AHA is losing members for a great number of issues. Soring performance horses is NOT one of them.[/QUOTE]
Leo, to clarify, I said I was concerned that Arabs were headed in that direction. Here is a direct quote of my comments; " AHA is loosing members at a rapid rate and part of it can be attributed to the excessive use of pads and hose clamps on our english horses. And I’ve recently learned of the use of pads on our WP horses as well. WTF?? I am afraid our breed may be heading towards soring if something isn’t done soon."
Please read the comments before flinging accusations. 
In addition, there are many people involved with Arabs that speak about SS classes lasting over an hour each b/c of shoe “packages” flying all over the place. A few years ago, shoeing was limited to a single pad however now we are up to how many? Yes, I can see competition escalating to the point that soring may become involved in order to win.
I looked at that photo,thats just how the BL got started back in the day.
FAIRFAX,don’t you remember that,its how they started the ASB too. or do you need to learn your breed history. you do not see any stacks or pkg on Wing Commander nor Colonel Boyle not even Technistar so what made the change, GREED Human GREED,ppl like YOU.
if the AHA doesn’t put a STOP to this NOW,they will be fieghting the same battle we are with the TWH. don’t give me the crap ya can’t sore a trotin horse. define SORE.(giving physical pain)
Malda, I hope vets are never put in charge of telling us how to shoe our horses. Few of them specialize in farrier work and the mechinics of how every type of sport and performance horse moves and how shoeing can help and hinder them. That should be between a farrier and whoever is in charge of the horse, wether it be a trainer or owner. Vets do not dictate to a jumper or eventer trainer/rider when they can use studs and what type to use, vets do not tell a reining trainer/rider wether or not they can use sliding plates, vets should not be in charge of telling a saddle seat or gaited trainer/rider under what conditions and in what manner they may shoe their horse.
aarpaso, the HPA Law defines sore. It has an exact legal definition. And it does not happen to Saddlebreds, Hackneys, Morgans or Arabians. Chains and action devices do not make a horse sore (the USDA specifically points this out in the power point presentation they use for training inspectors, chains are used for triaing Saddlebreds and Hackneys yet do not make them sore, and there was even an article published in The Horse about how chains and weighted boots used on the hind leg can be used in a physical therapy type way to help a horse recovering from stifle injury). Correct shoeing, including the use of pads and bands, does not make a horse sore. A band is simply a tool to keep a shoe on, and frankly is less invasive to the hoof than a nail is and puts less pressure on the hoof than a contraption such as an EZ Boot does when it is tightened to stay on.
Also aarpaso if you look at any pictures of Saddlebred show horses and they photo does not say “Unretouched” it has probably been retouched. In conformation shots of stalls they would fill in the back so it looked like the horse had a level topline, they could change a horse’s head seat or where his legs were. Only trust what you were actually there to see in person!
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6582529]
Mary…this was discussed on TROT over and over and over. Dr Cindy LaCroix ( a specialist in lameness) through Kathleen Ross, explained the dynamics as to WHY it would NOT work.
What has been done is IF a horse becomes sore due to overwork, pain killers have been used. Of course REST is the best cure for soreness in trotting horses.]
You know that and why you continue to insinuate otherwise just to be part of a crowd and try and make others think you have something to say…is silly
You are above that and I hope not that desperate for attention that you will destroy your credibility[/QUOTE]
I never saw that article. Where was it?
See how fast this morphs from this is only intended for Walking Horses, Racking Horses and Spotted Saddle Horses, the only breeds commonly sored under the legal definition of the HPA to we don’t like what you are doing with your horses so we are going to try to make it against the law to even though we have no evidence that what you do with your horses is harmful.
Did anyone look at the hoof of that Arabian? Jeez! The coronet band and growth rings look like roller coaster. The band is putting so much stress on the hoof there is blatant bruising ON TOP of the hoof. The angle is too steep and the whole thing is causing the heels to contract and become underslung. That is what this type of shoeing does to hoof.
It’s bad husbandry and bad for hooves. If people really can’t see it then I just don’t know what to say except you know NOTHING about hooves. And I don’t know much but I do know that much.
A photo of part of the hoof wall torn off due to the use of clamps/stacks.
http://fuglyblog.com/2012/07/12/guest-post-twh-stacks-a-shoers-perspective/
Renae…this thread morphs the more they think they can get away with. Now everyone is supposed to quit with any action devices as an unethical trainer could have sored a horse ten years ago and it will be sore now…if anything is used.
Kathy…I have had Arabs for longer than most…I am 62 and owned my first when I was 5 and we have had them since 1876…I do understand AHA and its problems and it has little to do with the actual show ring…That is another thread.
Mary…go to TROT and go looking for threads over the past four years…it is tucked in there somewhere…
Here is an excellent explaination as to WHY a trotting horse CAN NOT BE SORED…THEY LIMP…Kathy…they would be excused (or maybe not depending on the judging…)
This is written by a lady whose name is April
Ok my friends, since the question keeps coming up, today we are having a basic lesson on horse shoes: basic pinciple is for the shoe to end directly beneath the heal bulbs so that as the horse lands (he lands heal first, much like humans do) he has support for his legs and doesn’t rock back and damage tendons by over stretching them… now, often times farriers that shoe where a horse is turned freaquently (such as back yard barns and boarding barns) the farrier will make the shoes a bit “short” so they don’t hang out to the heal bulb but reduces the risk of the horse over reaching and ripping the shoe off (this is why it is critical to have your horse reset on time when your farrier makes the shoes short). Length of toe can help “enhance” (not create) natural motion. But we all know most horses grow forward as the toe gets long. This is where our “show package” comes in. In order to keep the angles right for the horse and not stress their ten…dons we add wedge pads, in order for the shoe to support the horse and give him something solid to land on, it must extend to the end of his heal bulbs, which on a long footed horse is further from the toe. This in turn creates a larger and heavier shoe (more iron = more weight). We do NOT sore our horses, the pads and shoes do not cause pain, they are really no different in principle than a normal keg shoe. It takes a good farrier to grow a long, pretty, balanced hoof. Our horses are sound (you can NOT sore a horse that trots, it will limp, period) they are happy and they are well cared for. Horses are 1000-1,200 pounds, a shoe that weighs 28-30 oz is not different than us wearing boots. And finally, I will say that long footed horses such as Saddlebreds, morgans and Arabs get better farrier care than the average short footed horse: they are reset on time, they wear custom made shoes that are shaped to the foot with a forge not hit with a hammer while cold (which twists the iron). So, just because it looks different doesn’t mean it is wrong.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6582814]
Soring a horse DOES NOT WORK on a trotting horse. Think about it…You would need to sore…then give them pain killers to stop the soring so they would not appear to be lame…
There are many OTHER issues with other breeds i.e. Arabs, Morgans and Saddlebreds, but soring is NOT ONE of them.
Arabs are restricted as to pads, weights etc under USEF rules. I would suggest you check them out.
Kathy S. DO YOUR HOMEWORK…AHA is losing members for a great number of issues. Soring performance horses is NOT one of them.[/QUOTE]
Chemically soring a trotting horse won’t work. But exaggerated mechanical devices are another issue. I’m not sure if they would work or not.
In any event, the exaggerated mechanical devices used to sore up Walkers seem headed for the dustbin of history. That’s one small step in the right direction.
G.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6583039]
Renae…this thread morphs the more they think they can get away with. Now everyone is supposed to quit with any action devices as an unethical trainer could have sored a horse ten years ago and it will be sore now…if anything is used.
Kathy…I have had Arabs for longer than most…I am 62 and owned my first when I was 5 and we have had them since 1876…I do understand AHA and its problems and it has little to do with the actual show ring…That is another thread.
Mary…go to TROT and go looking for threads over the past four years…it is tucked in there somewhere…
Here is an excellent explaination as to WHY a trotting horse CAN NOT BE SORED…THEY LIMP…Kathy…they would be excused (or maybe not depending on the judging…)
This is written by a lady whose name is April
Ok my friends, since the question keeps coming up, today we are having a basic lesson on horse shoes: basic pinciple is for the shoe to end directly beneath the heal bulbs so that as the horse lands (he lands heal first, much like humans do) he has support for his legs and doesn’t rock back and damage tendons by over stretching them… now, often times farriers that shoe where a horse is turned freaquently (such as back yard barns and boarding barns) the farrier will make the shoes a bit “short” so they don’t hang out to the heal bulb but reduces the risk of the horse over reaching and ripping the shoe off (this is why it is critical to have your horse reset on time when your farrier makes the shoes short). Length of toe can help “enhance” (not create) natural motion. But we all know most horses grow forward as the toe gets long. This is where our “show package” comes in. In order to keep the angles right for the horse and not stress their ten…dons we add wedge pads, in order for the shoe to support the horse and give him something solid to land on, it must extend to the end of his heal bulbs, which on a long footed horse is further from the toe. This in turn creates a larger and heavier shoe (more iron = more weight). We do NOT sore our horses, the pads and shoes do not cause pain, they are really no different in principle than a normal keg shoe. It takes a good farrier to grow a long, pretty, balanced hoof. Our horses are sound (you can NOT sore a horse that trots, it will limp, period) they are happy and they are well cared for. Horses are 1000-1,200 pounds, a shoe that weighs 28-30 oz is not different than us wearing boots. And finally, I will say that long footed horses such as Saddlebreds, morgans and Arabs get better farrier care than the average short footed horse: they are reset on time, they wear custom made shoes that are shaped to the foot with a forge not hit with a hammer while cold (which twists the iron). So, just because it looks different doesn’t mean it is wrong.[/QUOTE]
So are you saying that picture posted on ABN has better farrier care than average?
Then the following posts by TN are wrong. That there isn’t a huge time frame to rehab these dished, contracted, crumbling hooves. I have to tell you I disagree, since I’ve had to do a few over the years. It takes a year of good trimming to get them back.
What if they are sore equally? How can they limp? If they are driven forward in a head set that never moves, how do they express pain? Don’t tell me horses aren’t stoic enough to work through pain. They were evolved to work through pain or they were dinner. That is exactly why the TWH’s and all other competitive disciplines can use pain to gain. The perfect storm on a prey animal.
I just don’t buy it, I actually have seen the kind of pain they will work through and tolerate.
ETA and yes they do mask pain. Does cobra venom ring any bells?
