Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[hurleycane]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;6578590]
If they are lame they should not pass inspection.
OR should be excused by the ringmaster if they are lame in the ring. -That is the existing law, HPA and Tennessee.

If it is true that horses sored away from the show will step higher than horses not sored even without the 'devices’and high stepping is winning why do you think people who sore at home will stop? See explanation below please.

The HPA only affects horses at shows, exhibitions, auctions, and in transport, not at home. Wrong - the wording is any horse intended for

I do ‘infer’ because that is the letter of the proposed amendment, as an inspector is likely to see and apply.

I thought you were asking people to support THIS amendment, I don’t understand why you would ask an outsider to rewrite it for you if you support it as presented - nor am I paid to do so.Since your posts indicate you are interested in it and that your worry over it and continuously misunderstand it, I thought perhaps the exercise of rewriting it to your liking would raise your understanding or evolve solutions. Not sure if you are involved in this matter other than to worry how it may affect your particular breed of choice but unless it is SSH TWH or Racking registered and shown - it will not affect you and yours. And most likely an exercise in understanding this is of no benefit to you. [/QUOTE]

I support this amendment. I see why it is needed. And I see that it will work. For what ever reason you seem to miss and then twist any and all explanation of soring I have offered. What I have said is that if all the action devices are removed or disallowed from the show ring, soring will not work.

Remember the discussion of the whip? Once the horse feels the whip all one need do is raise a whip and a horse will respond??? Well, see if you can follow this: If your forearm receives a nice 1st degree sun burn, as long as nothing touches it or brushes against it you might not remember you had a sunburn. But lets say we put a bracelet on and make you swing your arm up and down - well you are gonna feel that burn and maybe not want that bracelet and maybe you might associate that bracelet with the pain EVEN WHEN THE BURN IS GONE. Follow me??

And now lets say you are Jackie MCConnell. You want that horse off its front end and onto its back end. You stack em up and well you blistered them front feet just right. Now you get that horse up off the floor and you slap on some chains to the pasterns with a good measure of slathery grease (so you don’t rub the hair off) and you holler “H’up here!” spit a little tobacci and and growl and commence the crack whipping and whooping to get that sore horse moving and you make him march forward with that chain clapping up and down for 20 mins or so and you repeat this as much as you can without tearing up the skin on that pastern cause you do not want a scar ruling against you but you do want the horse to associate the burn with the chain - cause each time that chain goes on it burns… and the horse gets on his haunches much as he can to take the pain of the fronts.

Kinda like the whip mentioned above you are conditioning the pain and on hauches crawl into the horse.

You have “trained” your horse to the pain of the chain and maybe even the growl and tobacci spitting. Hopefully, you have not put any disqualifying scars on his pasterns. So, now it is show time. And so you put the chains on and you commence the whooping and h’up here-in when the class is called.

You getting the picture???

On the other hand, let us say my horse has an abscess or some sore to his pastern or a quicked nail and his gait is altered some how. The alteration of his gait will only last as long as that pain persists. As long as I do not try to associate the pain with lets say a piece of equipment like a chain - he will not be conditioned to expect pain from the chain. The flinching response will not be there. He won’t get on his haunches in anticipation. So once the the pain or the sore is gone - my horse will not have any association or reason to alter his gait. SO soring would have no effect on his gait if he is not sore and he is not conditioned to associate a device with the pain.

Now I am sure there is more “technique” to soring than I offered here but if you follow any part of what I said you will see why the removal of action devices is a must for the TWH, Racking and SSH horses. This law is not directed at any other breeds. Saddlebreds for instance do not try to set their horses on their haunches through pain, they do not show them with chains on their feet. They are not included in this law.

[aarpaso]

Hurleycane:in the most part thats how the BL trainers do it.

if all the crap on the front end is gone,the Bl will be gone,along with pressure shoes and all the other junk thats done to the Walking and Racking breeds.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6578735]
I support this amendment. I see why it is needed. And I see that it will work. For what ever reason you seem to miss and then twist any and all explanation of soring I have offered. What I have said is that if all the action devices are removed or disallowed from the show ring, soring will not work.

Remember the discussion of the whip? Once the horse feels the whip all one need do is raise a whip and a horse will respond??? Well, see if you can follow this: If your forearm receives a nice 1st degree sun burn, as long as nothing touches it or brushes against it you might not remember you had a sunburn. But lets say we put a bracelet on and make you swing your arm up and down - well you are gonna feel that burn and maybe not want that bracelet and maybe you might associate that bracelet with the pain EVEN WHEN THE BURN IS GONE. Follow me??

And now lets say you are Jackie MCConnell. You want that horse off its front end and onto its back end. You stack em up and well you blistered them front feet just right. Now you get that horse up off the floor and you slap on some chains to the pasterns with a good measure of slathery grease (so you don’t rub the hair off) and you holler “H’up here!” spit a little tobacci and and growl and commence the crack whipping and whooping to get that sore horse moving and you make him march forward with that chain clapping up and down for 20 mins or so and you repeat this as much as you can without tearing up the skin on that pastern cause you do not want a scar ruling against you but you do want the horse to associate the burn with the chain - cause each time that chain goes on it burns… and the horse gets on his haunches much as he can to take the pain of the fronts.

Kinda like the whip mentioned above you are conditioning the pain and on hauches crawl into the horse.

You have “trained” your horse to the pain of the chain and maybe even the growl and tobacci spitting. Hopefully, you have not put any disqualifying scars on his pasterns. So, now it is show time. And so you put the chains on and you commence the whooping and h’up here-in when the class is called.

You getting the picture???

On the other hand, let us say my horse has an abscess or some sore to his pastern or a quicked nail and his gait is altered some how. The alteration of his gait will only last as long as that pain persists. As long as I do not try to associate the pain with lets say a piece of equipment like a chain - he will not be conditioned to expect pain from the chain. The flinching response will not be there. He won’t get on his haunches in anticipation. So once the the pain or the sore is gone - my horse will not have any association or reason to alter his gait. SO soring would have no effect on his gait if he is not sore and he is not conditioned to associate a device with the pain.

Now I am sure there is more “technique” to soring than I offered here but if you follow any part of what I said you will see why the removal of action devices is a must for the TWH, Racking and SSH horses. This law is not directed at any other breeds. Saddlebreds for instance do not try to set their horses on their haunches through pain, they do not show them with chains on their feet. They are not included in this law.[/QUOTE]

The HPA only affects horses at shows, exhibitions, auctions, and in transport, not at home.Wrong - the wording is any horse intended for

+++

I could not find this word intended nor a fragment of it in either HPA doc or Tennessee Statute, nor could the search function.

I post directly from the docs. That is not twisting.

This is from preamble of ‘for the twh blog’
http://forthetnwalkinghorse.blogspot.com/2012/09/research-comparison-of-original-hpa.html

“Please remember: those who oppose this are clearly not for the horse or upholding the law. I think it’s obvious that those who oppose H.R. 6388 are in support of the abuse or are abusers themselves. Let’s do our best to stop these monsters by continuing to contact…”

My breed does Rack in show performances.

The videoed abusers are being punished under the existing laws -amazing what enforcement will do, eh?

Carry on.

[hurleycane]

Your breed is???

[D_BaldStockings]

I own Saddlebreds.
And crosses.

I’ve owned a variety of horses over the decades

Your breed is?

[hurleycane]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;6580190]
I own Saddlebreds.
And crosses.

I’ve owned a variety of horses over the decades

Your breed is?[/QUOTE]

Gaitors. Had a show walk trot saddlebred for a good while and I had him when he was not a show saddlebred. Got him when he was 12 or 13 and had him till he passed at 28.

I have a keen interest in the smooth gaits and their high school potentials. Some (most) would not agree but I believe they are just beginning to unlock the potentials of gaited horses.

My interest in the TWH grew when I finally got a ride on a horse that could do a good running walk. Thing is I had no idea what it was. He was sold as a TWh (grade) but I figured what ever he was doing was like a rack (shows what I knew). So I racked him like a saddlebred - hands up and cluck. Had no idea what a great “other” gear he had. Then a trainer took my hands down relaxed my seat and leg and showed me what a deep nodding and deep striding gait was all about.

Incredible.

Question - you say you show a racking horse, does he use action devices? Do you have to go through HPA inspections at present in order to show your racking horse?

I am wondering cause to my knowledge no Saddlebred show comes under this scrutiny.

Oh - and to clarify “The HPA prohibits horses subjected to a process called soring from participating in exhibitions, sales, shows, or auctions.”

It matters not where the soring occurred. If the horse is sored and any effort to participate in those events is intended - well it is a violation. And that is why HPA included scars as violations. Certain pastern scars even with no tenderness will get you a ticket in DQP land. As will a heavy chain. They need not be sore - just scarred or too heavy a chain and you are in violation. Did you know that?

Below is part of the current law - see how it already had some wording that with your reasoning should already be affecting saddlebreds??

It did not affect saddlebreds cause they do not intentionally sore:

[INDENT]§1821. Definitions
As used in this chapter unless the context otherwise requires:
(1) The term “management” means any person who organizes, exercises control over, or administers or who is responsible for organizing, directing, or administering.
(2) The term “Secretary” means the Secretary of Agriculture.
(3) The term “sore” when used to describe a horse means that—
(A) an irritating or blistering agent has been applied, internally or externally, by a person to any limb of a horse,
(B) any burn, cut, or laceration has been inflicted by a person on any limb of a horse,
© any tack, nail, screw, or chemical agent has been injected by a person into or used by a person on any limb of a horse, or
(D) any other substance or device has been used by a person on any limb of a horse or a person has engaged in a practice involving a horse,

and, as a result of such application, infliction, injection, use, or practice, such horse suffers, or can reasonably be expected to suffer, physical pain or distress, inflammation, or lameness when walking, trotting, or otherwise moving, except that such term does not include such an application, infliction, injection, use, or practice in connection with the therapeutic treatment of a horse by or under the supervision of a person licensed to practice veterinary medicine in the State in which such treatment was given.[/INDENT]

So if you read it for intent on devices, the wording says “can reasonable be expected” to cause a horse to suffer. Protective boots were not banned. Nor were pads - but stacks of pads - well they do cause stocking up - which would come under inflammation - but I digress - Well even stacks of pads were not originally banned.

So I and I am sure others are at a loss as to why you are all “fearmongered” about the proposed changes which will only target TWH, SSH and Racking horses. BTW Racking is a proper name here referring to this Racking horse registry/association - not the gait. Lots of “walking horse style training” in that field.

[D_BaldStockings]

“Question - you say you show a racking horse, does he use action devices? Do you have to go through HPA inspections at present in order to show your racking horse?”

No, I do not show. I own. Retirees mostly. My breed is shown at a rack in shows. I spectate as often as I can.

I have heard of people who have shown Saddlebreds at mixed venues and they have stated they have gone through inspection without incident.

My horses react to any boot, strap, hobble, etc. as if it were an ‘action device’, snapping hinds to bellies and knees to chins. It takes quite a few sessions to get them moving nearly as if there were nothing on their legs.
I feel it is necessary for horses to get used to stuff on their legs for the safety factor alone.

And I have owned most of them from very young ages and most came to me prior to any training, so it is not a reaction to prior soring.

Most of the TWH I have seen at shows and barns in my area have been ‘unenhanced’ if I may put it that way.

There has been comment within the last several years in print in a major publication by a vet deliberately including Saddlebreds in the’ breeds that may be sored’ list. It was not an error.

I feel my concern regarding the amendment is a valid one.

My perspective.

[WalkInTheWoods]

Good conversation you two. Is anyone besides me seeing the HPA and the amendment in their sleep ?

[hurleycane]

Wanted to add that I got an explanation of the chemical colic that is caused by chemical soring. When I heard the term chemical colic - I had in my head a stress colic from the pain and duress of the burn. Unfortunately this term has a much more sinister implication. The chemical colic is the burn itself from the DMSO driving the caustic agents into the body, driving into the intestinal walls and the gut of the horse. And these were witnessed by necropsy.

[WalkInTheWoods]

Adding DMSO to a concoction takes “topical application” into a whole new realm.

[sunridge1]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6580689]
Wanted to add that I got an explanation of the chemical colic that is caused by chemical soring. When I heard the term chemical colic - I had in my head a stress colic from the pain and duress of the burn. Unfortunately this term has a much more sinister implication. The chemical colic is the burn itself from the DMSO driving the caustic agents into the body, driving into the intestinal walls and the gut of the horse. And these were witnessed by necropsy.[/QUOTE]

Really? I mean really. FFS I’m speechless. Really speechless. See…:mad:

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6580689]
Wanted to add that I got an explanation of the chemical colic that is caused by chemical soring. When I heard the term chemical colic - I had in my head a stress colic from the pain and duress of the burn. Unfortunately this term has a much more sinister implication. The chemical colic is the burn itself from the DMSO driving the caustic agents into the body, driving into the intestinal walls and the gut of the horse. And these were witnessed by necropsy.[/QUOTE]

This is one of the reasons show Walkers pay the same morbidity and mortality rates as Eventing Horses.

G.

[aarpaso]

Dr.Mullins has sent out a letter resigning from SHOW Inc. is this a case of the RATS leaving a sinking ship or is the Texas law suit not going as planned. he may be getting out while the gettin is good.

Just another chapter in this Soring mess.

[Renae]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6581325]
This is one of the reasons show Walkers pay the same morbidity and mortality rates as Eventing Horses.

G.[/QUOTE]

And interestingly enough Saddlebreds, Morgans and Arabians used for showing have a lower rate than just about any other breed/use.

[WalkInTheWoods]

Subject: Mullins Resigns From SHOW

The Report has learned that Dr. Stephen L. Mullins has resigned his position as President of the SHOW HIO. Mullins informed the SHOW board of directors at their meeting on September 27, 2012. Mullins has been the President of SHOW since 2009. Mullins will continue in his current role through the end of 2012 and will continue to support the SHOW HIO in an advisory capacity in the future.

During the board meeting Mullins thanked the board for their trust in him and read the following letter to the board of directors.

SHOW Board,

In November 2009, I gave up my Veterinary Practice and was honored to become President of SHOW HIO. I believe we, the TWHNC and SHOW have made great strides inside this industry. It has been a long winding road and this industry still has many hurdles to get over but I believe the industry is definitely headed in the correct direction.

I am very grateful to this Board for allowing me the freedom over the last 3 years to do the things which I and the advisors thought needed to be done. I also realize that quite often when tough choices had to be made on certain suspensions or when other circumstances came up, this Board stood behind my decisions even though it was potentially hurting this Board and its horse shows. I for one have come to know that the integrity of this Board is beyond what even I expected and for that I will be eternally grateful.

I can go on forever about my gratitude to this Board and to the TWHNC, but simply want to say thank you for your support throughout the last 3 years.

However, I am asking this Board to allow me to transition out of my position. I believe the industry has reached a point where it is time to move in a different direction. I also know that I personally have reached a point where I physically and mentally need to change. I also know that you will be approached with a new proposal for SHOW HIO within the next few weeks. I believe this will help the Celebration with the financial burden of SHOW and will also potentially get the TWHNC out of the inspection business.

I believe I need to remain at my position through the end of the year. This will get us through the Fall horse shows. We will then have appeals and hearings to get through and then will potentially have a new transition. I will then be glad to stay in an advisory role with SHOW and would be honored to help the Celebration in any way possible in the future.

I just want to say a simple, humble “Thank you” to each and every person on this board and to this great horse show. I hope I have done each of you the job this great horse show deserved and I will again always be grateful.

Sincerely,
Dr. Stephen L. Mullins

[kathy_s]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6580689]
Wanted to add that I got an explanation of the chemical colic that is caused by chemical soring. When I heard the term chemical colic - I had in my head a stress colic from the pain and duress of the burn. Unfortunately this term has a much more sinister implication. The chemical colic is the burn itself from the DMSO driving the caustic agents into the body, driving into the intestinal walls and the gut of the horse. And these were witnessed by necropsy.[/QUOTE]

This makes me sick to my stomach, and furious. As an Arabian owner with youngsters bred to trot, I have watched this thread closely. Thanks to all of you that have been diligent in keeping this issue in the forefront. I was aware of some of the abusive practices, hoping TWH owners would keep the pressure on BL fans to stop it. You guys are making real progress and I for one, thank you.
AHA is loosing members at a rapid rate and part of it can be attributed to the excessive use of pads and hose clamps on our english horses. And I’ve recently learned of the use of pads on our WP horses as well. WTF?? I am afraid our breed may be heading towards soring if something isn’t done soon.
I refuse to put my horses through that. And before I get slammed, I breed for english horses with lots of bone b/c of how athletic they are. In fact, my yearling filly can trot over her ears but when she gets older I’ll take her towards working cow and reining. At least I can keep her barefoot or in plates with no problem.
Again, thanks for your diligence.

[aarpaso]

after all the butt kissing,ole Doc Mullins seems to be doing alittle begging to stay on board.at least in an advisory role.

something is fishy,Has the TWHNC thrown Doc Mullins under the Bus?

after Appeals and Hearings,but before that he states a new proposal is coming.twhnc will be out of the inspection business.

so what will happens to SHOW INC,their HIO. another new member of the alphabet soup on the horizan.

[walknsound]

[QUOTE=kathy s.;6582246]
This makes me sick to my stomach, and furious. As an Arabian owner with youngsters bred to trot, I have watched this thread closely. Thanks to all of you that have been diligent in keeping this issue in the forefront. I was aware of some of the abusive practices, hoping TWH owners would keep the pressure on BL fans to stop it. You guys are making real progress and I for one, thank you.
AHA is loosing members at a rapid rate and part of it can be attributed to the excessive use of pads and hose clamps on our english horses. And I’ve recently learned of the use of pads on our WP horses as well. WTF?? I am afraid our breed may be heading towards soring if something isn’t done soon.
I refuse to put my horses through that. And before I get slammed, I breed for english horses with lots of bone b/c of how athletic they are. In fact, my yearling filly can trot over her ears but when she gets older I’ll take her towards working cow and reining. At least I can keep her barefoot or in plates with no problem.
Again, thanks for your diligence.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for your post Kathy.

[walknsound]

[QUOTE=aarpaso;6582270]
after all the butt kissing,ole Doc Mullins seems to be doing alittle begging to stay on board.at least in an advisory role.

something is fishy,Has the TWHNC thrown Doc Mullins under the Bus?

after Appeals and Hearings,but before that he states a new proposal is coming.twhnc will be out of the inspection business.

so what will happens to SHOW INC,their HIO. another new member of the alphabet soup on the horizan.[/QUOTE]

Too hot in Hell’s kitchen?

[Renae]

@kathy s.;6582246

As an Arabian owner with youngsters bred to trot, I have watched this thread closely.

I am afraid our breed may be heading towards soring if something isn’t done soon.

Kathy S,

You CAN NOT sore a horse that trots. It just does not work. It has been repeated over and over in this thread by those of us with trotting saddle seat horse experience.