Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6576654]
So you have no problem with the current language? You just want more vigorous enforcement?

I did ask two questions; you’ve answered one.

G.[/QUOTE]

http://www.forthetwh.com/HPA-HR6388%20comparison.pdf

This is the original language from the Federal law, italics and bolding mine:

“(3) The term “sore” when used to describe a horse
means that—
(A) an irritating or blistering agent has been
applied, internally or externally, by a person to any
limb of a horse,
(B) any burn, cut, or laceration has been inflicted
by a person on any limb of a horse,
© any tack, nail, screw, or chemical agent has
been injected by a person into or used by a person on
any limb of a horse, or
(D) any other substance or device has been used
by a person on any limb of a horse or a person has
engaged in a practice involving a horse, and, as a
result of such application, infliction, injection, use, or
practice, such horse suffers, or can reasonably be
expected to suffer, physical pain or distress,
inflammation, or lameness when walking, trotting, or
otherwise moving, except that such term does not
include such an application, infliction, injection, use,
or practice in connection with the therapeutic
treatment of a horse by or under the supervision of a
person licensed to practice veterinary medicine in the
State in which such treatment was given.”

The local law further addresses responsibilities of Ringmasters, covers forfeiture of animals and provides further penalties.
http://asci.uvm.edu/equine/law/cruelty/tn_cruel.htm

I have no problem with the original language.
I support vigorous enforcement.

From another angle; what penalties would the State or Federal gov’t be liable for in the event of proof of failure to prosecute a crime?
Other than firing the hapless law enforcement officer who is the lowest man on the chain?

[Renae]

[QUOTE=luvmytbs;6576784]
So why then, since your breed is not TWH and this doesn’t concern you or your horses, are you constantly coming back to this thread to argue?[/QUOTE]

Because there are people who can not make the distinction betwen gaited horses that are shown saddle seat and trotting horses that are shown saddle seat. Trotting horses that are shown saddle seat are not sored. Yet how this law is changed could effect us. It would be like if there were laws changed that were meant to effect horse racing and as a unintended consequence impacted everyone who owned a Thoroughbred in a way the placed undo burden upon all Thoroughbred owners for things they had never been a part of.

[hurleycane]

[QUOTE=aarpaso;6576709]
the USDA has given the TWH trainers and owners time to end the problems in their industry,many many violations have been written,many many violations have been ignored,people like David Howard and the twhnc have placed abusive trainer’s names in the Hall of Fame, Jackie McConnell’s name removed after a video they could not cover up was shown world wide.does this sound like trying to change,NO. it does not take 40 yrs to change it takes people that want to change. they don’t

some are saying well the Law is on the books just enforce it,when done in dark barns,having the HIO looking the other way,judges bein told what horse to pin.and people that know a trainer sores,people will not turn them in to the Law so it can be enforced.

I blame YOU the ONES that scream i don’t sore my Horse, you that turned a blind eye,you yes you are guilty if you had stood up these past forty years forced your registry to do something. we would not be here. Soring and beating would have ended.[/QUOTE]

Most quote worthy post aarpaso. In particular the bolded words ring loud for me. I am also totally with you in the sentiment that looking the other way is a big part of the reason it went on. My own personal reasoning for letting the pads and grotesque movement perpetuate without my vocal protest was it was considered perfectly legal by the HPA. With the HPA letting the stacks, the heavy shoes (nailed by the plantation pound), the chains, the cut tails the incredible shanks… etc… enter the ring unchallenged they in essence legitimized it and worse yet made it legal to stack, weight and chain them. So for me - other than shunning it and all those who participate in it - there was no way to stop it. And unfortunately I was for a time limiting my comments of the TWH mechanical crap to only a here and there suggestion that it might be good to settle for a little less stack and lose the chain. Worse yet I actually bought the hype that they were no longer soring.

No more. I will not buy it.

So yes - turning away from the problem did perpetuate it.

[WalkInTheWoods]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6576889]

No more. I will not buy it.[/QUOTE]

Neither does the AVMA and AAEP.

[luvmytbs]

@Renae;6576884

Because there are people who can not make the distinction betwen gaited horses that are shown saddle seat and trotting horses that are shown saddle seat. Trotting horses that are shown saddle seat are not sored. Yet how this law is changed could effect us. It would be like if there were laws changed that were meant to effect horse racing and as a unintended consequence impacted everyone who owned a Thoroughbred in a way the placed undo burden upon all Thoroughbred owners for things they had never been a part of.

There is this “what if” again.

Hypothetically: If I were to, for whatever idiotic reason, ‘sore’ or ‘steward’ my TBs, I would expect for me to get charged with animal cruelty if I got busted.

It’s that simple.

So for certain individuals to be all worried about an Act which addresses a “breed specific” cruelty (Big Lick), I have to wonder if those training methods are also used in other disciplines (breeds).

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=luvmytbs;6576915]
There is this “what if” again.

Hypothetically: If I were to, for whatever idiotic reason, ‘sore’ or ‘steward’ my TBs, I would expect for me to get charged with animal cruelty if I got busted.

It’s that simple.

So for certain individuals to be all worried about an Act which addresses a “breed specific” cruelty (Big Lick), I have to wonder if those training methods are also used in other disciplines (breeds).

[/QUOTE]

These are from the proposed amendments to the HPA Federal law = Nationwide:
"…(1) The term “action device” means any boot, collar,
chain, roller, or other device that encircles or is placed
upon the lower extremity of the leg of a horse in such a
manner that it can—
(A) rotate around the leg or slide up and down the
leg, so as to cause friction; or
(B) strike the hoof, coronet band, fetlock joint, or
pastern of the horse.
…

…(12) The use of an action device on any limb of a
Tennessee Walking, a Racking, or a Spotted Saddle
Horse at a horse show, horse exhibition, or horse sale or
auction.
(13) The use of a weighted shoe, pad, wedge, hoof
band, or other device or material at a horse show, horse
exhibition, or horse sale or action that—
(A) is placed on, inserted in, or attached to any
limb of a Tennessee Walking, a Racking, or a
Spotted Saddle horse;
(B) is constructed to artificially alter the gait of
such a horse; and
© is not strictly protective or therapeutic in
nature.
…"

THIS

Now if you are jumping with a boot, maybe a bell boot that may rotate (could chafe, note the wording can above), or perhaps you have your horse shod with a slightly lighter or heavier shoe or with special sliding plates or even pull shoes for a hack class, or have a pad on your dressage horse.
Or are in warmup or on the show grounds with any of the above… if your breed happens to be TWH or their derivatives you are UNLAWFUL.

Federal law, remember = anywhere in the USA.
Now IF that were to pass, don’t you think there is a very likely possibility that it would be declared breed bias and would have to be broadened to encompass generic ‘horses’ so as not to seem unfair?

The existing law says anything done to sore is wrong and criminal. It does not make any device unlawful UNLESS used to sore. Further clarification is unneeded.

[aarpaso]

12 the use ofany action deviceon any limb of aTennessee Walking Horse Spotted Saddle Hat a Horse Show horse exhibition sale or auctionorse or Racking Horse

it does not say American Saddle Bred or AQHA

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;6576875]
http://www.forthetwh.com/HPA-HR6388%20comparison.pdf

This is the original language from the Federal law, italics and bolding mine:

“(3) The term “sore” when used to describe a horse
means that—
(A) an irritating or blistering agent has been
applied, internally or externally, by a person to any
limb of a horse,
(B) any burn, cut, or laceration has been inflicted
by a person on any limb of a horse,
© any tack, nail, screw, or chemical agent has
been injected by a person into or used by a person on
any limb of a horse, or
(D) any other substance or device has been used
by a person on any limb of a horse or a person has
engaged in a practice involving a horse, and, as a
result of such application, infliction, injection, use, or
practice, such horse suffers, or can reasonably be
expected to suffer, physical pain or distress,
inflammation, or lameness when walking, trotting, or
otherwise moving, except that such term does not
include such an application, infliction, injection, use,
or practice in connection with the therapeutic
treatment of a horse by or under the supervision of a
person licensed to practice veterinary medicine in the
State in which such treatment was given.”

The local law further addresses responsibilities of Ringmasters, covers forfeiture of animals and provides further penalties.
http://asci.uvm.edu/equine/law/cruelty/tn_cruel.htm

I have no problem with the original language.
I support vigorous enforcement.

From another angle; what penalties would the State or Federal gov’t be liable for in the event of proof of failure to prosecute a crime?
Other than firing the hapless law enforcement officer who is the lowest man on the chain?[/QUOTE]

You really don’t answer the question, so let’s try another tack.

Why does a long toe work to exaggerate the front end action of a horse? What is/are the mechanical principle(s) involved?

I’d be interested in your answer (as well as one from Codial, Fairfax, or any other who believes that these devices are benign if used “properly”).

G.

[aarpaso]

Fair fax your Tin Foil Hat is on backassward.
3gaited 5 gaited BS is all you spuu.

the fact that a video has shown light on the abuse of the Big Lick,just jerks your chain, well it has and you can’t do a da-- thing about it. but throw mud.

keep posting enjoy.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6577235]
You really don’t answer the question, so let’s try another tack.

Why does a long toe work to exaggerate the front end action of a horse? What is/are the mechanical principle(s) involved?

I’d be interested in your answer (as well as one from Codial, Fairfax, or any other who believes that these devices are benign if used “properly”).

G.[/QUOTE]

I’ve forgotten the question, but if I am able to answer I will if you ask again.

About the long toe: A horse gets much of it’s movement from loading and unloading the tendon systems in the lower legs. Any angle changes or toe length changes will alter the ‘flight path’ of the hoof.

If you only grow the toe forward (no shoeing, weight, etc.)you have increased the loading on the tendons and ligaments on the back of the leg during the second part of the stance phase of the gait.
In an ideal world where everything goes to plan, this should ‘pop’ the limb off the ground with a spring-launch action when the weight is shifted off that foot.
In theory this could result in more time airborne and added stride length -but-
As the world is seldom ideal it is also possible to create too much stress and damage the tendons and ligaments; cause a faulty landing of the hoof which may result in excess concussion -which will damage whatever weak area in the column of the leg as it travels upward; induce trauma in the hoof capsule because of excess loading on the toe part of the wall and predisposing to mechanical founder and seems to often associate with underrun heels.

A smidge might be good. It might make a huge difference to the way the horse is able to use itself.

a lot might be a catastrophe.

This is also why (small) weight judiciously placed can move flight paths on horses without over lengthening toes and ‘alter gait’ in a beneficial way to avoid interference, move the highest point of the flight path arc slightly forward or back.

please note: This is observation and personal opinion only. I am not a farrier, nor do I pretend to be. Your vet and or farrier may have different opinions on equine biomechanics.

By the way, the ‘long toe’ is not a device or appliance and there is no reference to it within either Statute cited. Not covered under Soring.

so, back at you: what does a short toe/high heel broken angle do? What is/are the mechanical principle(s) involved?

[The_Preacher]

A few months ago my wife Jennie and I attended a DQP Clinic hosted by a HIO & USDA.

The point was made and gone over several times, “We are not out looking for the clean, sound moving horse, we are after the horse that is sore, bathed in chemicals that are used to irritate (Sore) the horse’s feet OR masking agents that are used to cover up that a horse has been sored”

They are well aware of chemicals that may have found their way down to the feet, show sheen, soap from bathing, fly spray etc.

The Bell Boots are not used to hit upon, rest upon or twirl upon irritated skin to cause a reaction in the horse to try to evade the pain that area being stimulated. (The Big Lick).

In every breed of horse it is not only well known but industry accepted that a light, rubberized, some with sheep skin lining to “Protect” the horse especially in events that might cause the horse’s back feet to clip the front foot, is being humane and careful.

These folks arguing this know that, they simply wanna deflect you away from the main issues. No other reason, they are experienced horse people and know and understand the use of every piece of horse equipment.

Arguing with them is a tactic they wanna keep you engaged in, you are not educating them on anything, or changing their minds, they are very cognizant of the implications of the proposed law and know that these laws set up for certain breeds of horses, that have been identified as breeds historically documented to cheat in order to win and are well aware what the laws are for only those breeds that utilizes techniques to enhance the horse’s gait.

[hurleycane]

@ Preacher - I would say it is worse than cheating to win - the soring that is. It is geared to induce something ugly, forced and detrimental to the horse that somehow or another a group of people chose to place a value on and call it a high step.

And indeed there is no way any rational real horsemen would extrapolate the USDA is out to outlaw protective devices in horsemanship. Emphasis on rational.

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6577235]
Why does a long toe work to exaggerate the front end action of a horse? What is/are the mechanical principle(s) involved?[/QUOTE]

In simplest terms: It changes the ratios of the lengths between the joints in the leg. Any horse will move differently before and after a simple reset. Even if we are only talking a quarter of an inch.

[frugalannie]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;6577164]

Now if you are jumping with a boot, maybe a bell boot that may rotate (could chafe, note the wording can above), or perhaps you have your horse shod with a slightly lighter or heavier shoe or with special sliding plates or even pull shoes for a hack class, or have a pad on your dressage horse.
Or are in warmup or on the show grounds with any of the above… if your breed happens to be TWH or their derivatives you are UNLAWFUL.[/QUOTE]

Well, the FEI is waaaay ahead of you on this one, as you may know. They test jumpers for hypersensitivity, which is pretty controversial in itself, but can you imagine if their standards were applied to the gaited breeds?

Maybe that’s the solution: hire FEI vets to monitor the gaited shows.

[walknsound]

[QUOTE=The Preacher;6577416]
A few months ago my wife Jennie and I attended a DQP Clinic hosted by a HIO & USDA.

The point was made and gone over several times, “We are not out looking for the clean, sound moving horse, we are after the horse that is sore, bathed in chemicals that are used to irritate (Sore) the horse’s feet OR masking agents that are used to cover up that a horse has been sored”

They are well aware of chemicals that may have found their way down to the feet, show sheen, soap from bathing, fly spray etc.

The Bell Boots are not used to hit upon, rest upon or twirl upon irritated skin to cause a reaction in the horse to try to evade the pain that area being stimulated. (The Big Lick).

In every breed of horse it is not only well known but industry accepted that a light, rubberized, some with sheep skin lining to “Protect” the horse especially in events that might cause the horse’s back feet to clip the front foot, is being humane and careful.

These folks arguing this know that, they simply wanna deflect you away from the main issues. No other reason, they are experienced horse people and know and understand the use of every piece of horse equipment.

Arguing with them is a tactic they wanna keep you engaged in, you are not educating them on anything, or changing their minds, they are very cognizant of the implications of the proposed law and know that these laws set up for certain breeds of horses, that have been identified as breeds historically documented to cheat in order to win and are well aware what the laws are for only those breeds that utilizes techniques to enhance the horse’s gait.[/QUOTE]

Of course they know, and their arguments are meant to deflect.

[hurleycane]

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;6577500]
In simplest terms: It changes the ratios of the lengths between the joints in the leg. Any horse will move differently before and after a simple reset. Even if we are only talking a quarter of an inch.[/QUOTE]

… and the absolute cause or reason or governing law here is movement below the knee is reciprocal to the forces above and below it.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=frugalannie;6577505]
Well, the FEI is waaaay ahead of you on this one, as you may know. They test jumpers for hypersensitivity, which is pretty controversial in itself, but can you imagine if their standards were applied to the gaited breeds?

Maybe that’s the solution: hire FEI vets to monitor the gaited shows.[/QUOTE]

The FEI also disqualifies for boots that are overweight. But then, they actually tell exactly what overweight is, rather than simply stating "weighted’.

Loose, non-specific language is open to interpretation.
When that interpretation is made by non-horsemen judge and jury unexpected consequences are bound to ensue.

I have yet to hear from anyone what is acceptable, if anything. the gist of what I have read in your responses is that there is NOTHING except, perhaps a 4" barefoot hoof or perhaps a standard keg shoe only (which does have weight, of course).

So why isn’t that in the proposal if stacks, pads, bar shoes, and all the rest of any farrier work are anathema to the TWH and allied breeds? A bit draconian, perhaps?

Where are the sanctions for not remanding a case to legal authorities or failure of the authorities to follow through? Where is the leg veterinarian or lameness expert in the discussion?

Or is the contention that a sore horse might not be lame? Any good horseman ought to be able to see lameness within about 10-15 seconds of a horse moving or they have no right to call themselves same. ANY gait.

Non- horsemen? Might as well flip coins as to what their decisions reflect as to the state of the horse.

[hurleycane]

Well I think you have solved the problem for the TWH and boiled it down to one simple law:

Only horsemen are permitted to own, show, exhibit and transport the gaited horse.

Why didn’t anyone else think of that??

And D_Baldstockings you have really boarded exaggeration train if you think there has been no discussion of limits. I know this was already suggested to you - but it might be a good idea that you offer concrete suggestions that you feel would help HPA do its job rather that infer stuff as you did in this last post of yours. Try and come to terms with it and understand that 1)the sort of treatment you saw on that McConnell film does not take place at the shows it is done before the shows, 2) the McConnell’s work very hard at hiding their soring with other chemicals and stewarding the horse TO NOT TO REACT TO HOOF TESTS WHEN THE FOOT IS IN HAND (which is why they were beating the horse on the head while the guy had the foot in hand), 3) they do it cause it gives them the crawling lick they adore.

ANd for real - they are not horsemen by any stretch.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6578321]
Well I think you have solved the problem for the TWH and boiled it down to one simple law:

Only horsemen are permitted to own, show, exhibit and transport the gaited horse.

Why didn’t anyone else think of that??

And D_Baldstockings you have really boarded exaggeration train if you think there has been no discussion of limits. I know this was already suggested to you - but it might be a good idea that you offer concrete suggestions that you feel would help HPA do its job rather that infer stuff as you did in this last post of yours. Try and come to terms with it and understand that 1)the sort of treatment you saw on that McConnell film does not take place at the shows it is done before the shows, 2) the McConnell’s work very hard at hiding their soring with other chemicals and stewarding the horse TO NOT TO REACT TO HOOF TESTS WHEN THE FOOT IS IN HAND (which is why they were beating the horse on the head while the guy had the foot in hand), 3) they do it cause it gives them the crawling lick they adore.

ANd for real - they are not horsemen by any stretch.[/QUOTE]

If they are lame they should not pass inspection.
OR should be excused by the ringmaster if they are lame in the ring. -That is the existing law, HPA and Tennessee.

If it is true that horses sored away from the show will step higher than horses not sored even without the 'devices’and high stepping is winning why do you think people who sore at home will stop?

The HPA only affects horses at shows, exhibitions, auctions, and in transport, not at home.

I do ‘infer’ because that is the letter of the proposed amendment, as an inspector is likely to see and apply.

I thought you were asking people to support THIS amendment, I don’t understand why you would ask an outsider to rewrite it for you if you support it as presented - nor am I paid to do so.

[sunridge1]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;6578590]
If they are lame they should not pass inspection.
OR should be excused by the ringmaster if they are lame in the ring. -That is the existing law, HPA and Tennessee.

If it is true that horses sored away from the show will step higher than horses not sored even without the 'devices’and high stepping is winning why do you think people who sore at home will stop?

The HPA only affects horses at shows, exhibitions, auctions, and in transport, not at home.

I do ‘infer’ because that is the letter of the proposed amendment, as an inspector is likely to see and apply.

I thought you were asking people to support THIS amendment, I don’t understand why you would ask an outsider to rewrite it for you if you support it as presented - nor am I paid to do so.[/QUOTE]

Those Big Lick horses are so messed up they can’t even take steps normally. At least by normal horse standards known to anyone that knows how a horse is supposed to move at a walk (not running walk) they ARE lame.

Gah! I can’t stand it. I’m watching an online horse show right now. I see lame/hitching horses. Gah! I watch QH’s they are lame, Arabian park horses are lame, these ASB’s are lame.

I really cannot believe these industry’s have devolved to the point where those supposedly in the know (trainers, judges) are showing and pinning horses that are lame and they don’t know the difference. Can’t they see…!runs screaming