Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[Malda]

That would be absolutely wonderful. The only thing the BL horses are bred for is the pace, and this is the reason it’s so rare for TWH’s to gait anymore. I’ve shopped for gaited horses twice now, and only once have I ridden a true running walk, all the other TWH’s paced, and a couple racked. By all means, remove the BL bloodlines and only breed natural walkers.

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6705933]
With the demise of the BL and what I have read here, that certain bloodlines are specifically bred for BL and its action abilities…will these just be discontinued and is that going to impact the genetic availability of the breed?

[katarine]

go to YouTube
Look up Hannah Pulvers.
Look at the names of the horses she rides. Jose Jose. Titleist. Main Power. Those are very modern “BL” lines doing very well on barefeet/keg shoes/lite shod shoes. And walking, shaking natural moving horses. In snaffles.

The lack of a good running walk- IMO- is more about rushed and hurried training, and nailing on ’ I want a big moving walk now’ than it is the lack of running walk talent. I trail ride with some folks who will run the walk right out of a horse-So everybody ends up racking or saddle gaiting to survive. A smooth moving running walk is not supposed to be ‘fast’ …and fast lately is fashionable. In my limited experience a lot of these modern bloodlines are slow to mature but no one’s got time for that. That’s horses these days: Everyone wants to win yesterday.

Don’t take my word for it. Look up the horses on Hannah’s channel.

[katarine]

Another very nice young horse I have no relation to in any way. A three year old by Titleist. Barefoot and I believe he’s in a snaffle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6lBIQ1L7ro&feature=youtu.be

I do hope I’m permitted to submit examples of modern bloodlines that naturally exhibit the good walks of a TWH.

[sunridge1]

I don’t like that horse at all. That is not a good example IMO. The horse has no rear engine.

[katarine]

meh, he’s an out of shape 3 YO. Feel free to post better examples. the longer he walks on that video the better he does.

[sunridge1]

You know that is the hard part. Very few are correct in form or conformation. If I had video of my Merry Go Boy grandson from 40 years ago I could show you…They don’t breed them like that anymore. There may a few out there but not many.

[cordial]

[QUOTE=katarine;6707414]
go to YouTube
Look up Hannah Pulvers.
Look at the names of the horses she rides. Jose Jose. Titleist. Main Power. Those are very modern “BL” lines doing very well on barefeet/keg shoes/lite shod shoes. And walking, shaking natural moving horses. In snaffles.

The lack of a good running walk- IMO- is more about rushed and hurried training, and nailing on ’ I want a big moving walk now’ than it is the lack of running walk talent. I trail ride with some folks who will run the walk right out of a horse-So everybody ends up racking or saddle gaiting to survive. A smooth moving running walk is not supposed to be ‘fast’ …and fast lately is fashionable. In my limited experience a lot of these modern bloodlines are slow to mature but no one’s got time for that. That’s horses these days: Everyone wants to win yesterday.

Don’t take my word for it. Look up the horses on Hannah’s channel.[/QUOTE]

Hannah is a new , young, up-coming trainer that moved to Tenn. from the west. She has some amazing young horses that anybody would love to own.
I might add that most of her flat-shod horses blood lines come from Padded horses

[WalkInTheWoods]

[QUOTE=katarine;6707897]
Another very nice young horse I have no relation to in any way. A three year old by Titleist. Barefoot and I believe he’s in a snaffle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6lBIQ1L7ro&feature=youtu.be

I do hope I’m permitted to submit examples of modern bloodlines that naturally exhibit the good walks of a TWH.[/QUOTE]

@sunridge1;6707919

I don’t like that horse at all. That is not a good example IMO. The horse has no rear engine.

Here’s a Titleist 2YO with a rear engine. Too bad it had to be engineered in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea9QeTMcQi8

[katarine]

No horse would do all of that without stuff attached to him, no.

You know that what he is exhibiting is altered/created by weight and pads, sure. You cannot say what this horse could do without all the stuff. You just don’t know.

[Shansurri]

[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6708014]
Here’s a Titleist 2YO with a rear engine. Too bad it had to be engineered in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea9QeTMcQi8[/QUOTE]

No… no… no.

This is the whole problem with people in this industry. Why on earth would you say that the horse on stacks has a ‘bigger engine’? A more appropriate form? People in the industry are seriously barn blind. I would even call them breed blind.

A proper running walk (or flat walk) has several undeniable characteristics that must be met in order for the gait to be true. The footfall patterns must follow a consistent 1-2-3-4 even beat. The pattern (in no particular starting point) is RH,RF,LH,LF.

In addition to that, the front and rear legs on the same side should NOT lift at the same time. That is a pace motion, and it is less secure and balanced than a gait in which first the hind foot, and then the front foot leave the ground.

The back should be long, loose, and relaxed, with a slight lift-- a gaited dressage horse is going to be closer to ‘neutral’ than a trotting dressage horse would be. That doesn’t allow a horse that is hollow. No, not ever. It also does not allow for a braced back. Not even on a rail horse.

The head shake is a natural, desirable trait. It exists because of a deep reaching hind step on a gaited horse, and therefore in a nongaited horse on a long strong walk you will also find a head nod. The head nods up and down (not side to side), and it comes down as the hind foot comes down. The head and hind feet meet, so to speak, so that the head and back motion offer a nice easy counterbalance to that deep hind end.

Overall balance is not supposed to be heavy on the hind end. Leave Crouching Dragon, Hidden Running Walk to the movies. A balanced horse in a running walk has slightly more weight on the hind end, to compensate for rider weight and to allow for a free movement of the shoulders and back.

The running walk exists because it was coveted for being smooth (Big Lick loses here), balanced (BL loses again), and surefooted (another BL ftl). Trying to dream up some bizarre flatshod version that crouches on its butt and step paces around the ring with a shoulder driven head shake that is false and trained into it is exactly what brought everyone into soring in the first place. That BL colt is exactly what is wrong with the entire industry-- a false image is being feted and approved.

He is step pacing, shaking his head side to side, and when he does go into an up and down head shake he is timing it with his shoulders, not his hind feet. He is braced through the back and neck, and he is refusing to maintain balance front to back, instead choosing to sit on his haunches and stiffly stagger his way across the field in a mockery of a running walk. No, and no again.

[The_Preacher]

It keeps on rolling for those that like to break the law ~~~~ and might I add ~~~ makes those that are in support of it look not so sympathetic

Look at the 1st two and the 4th from the bottom

Me? I’d just sit on my hands until the final descision has been made knock clean, keg shod sound moving horses because they don’t Look Like padded or ex-padded horses is just foolheartedly

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/hp/downloads/reports/USDAHPDQ_Nov2012.pdf

[sunridge1]

[QUOTE=Shansurri;6708053]
No… no… no.

This is the whole problem with people in this industry. Why on earth would you say that the horse on stacks has a ‘bigger engine’? A more appropriate form? People in the industry are seriously barn blind. I would even call them breed blind.

A proper running walk (or flat walk) has several undeniable characteristics that must be met in order for the gait to be true. The footfall patterns must follow a consistent 1-2-3-4 even beat. The pattern (in no particular starting point) is RH,RF,LH,LF.

In addition to that, the front and rear legs on the same side should NOT lift at the same time. That is a pace motion, and it is less secure and balanced than a gait in which first the hind foot, and then the front foot leave the ground.

The back should be long, loose, and relaxed, with a slight lift-- a gaited dressage horse is going to be closer to ‘neutral’ than a trotting dressage horse would be. That doesn’t allow a horse that is hollow. No, not ever. It also does not allow for a braced back. Not even on a rail horse.

The head shake is a natural, desirable trait. It exists because of a deep reaching hind step on a gaited horse, and therefore in a nongaited horse on a long strong walk you will also find a head nod. The head nods up and down (not side to side), and it comes down as the hind foot comes down. The head and hind feet meet, so to speak, so that the head and back motion offer a nice easy counterbalance to that deep hind end.

Overall balance is not supposed to be heavy on the hind end. Leave Crouching Dragon, Hidden Running Walk to the movies. A balanced horse in a running walk has slightly more weight on the hind end, to compensate for rider weight and to allow for a free movement of the shoulders and back.

The running walk exists because it was coveted for being smooth (Big Lick loses here), balanced (BL loses again), and surefooted (another BL ftl). Trying to dream up some bizarre flatshod version that crouches on its butt and step paces around the ring with a shoulder driven head shake that is false and trained into it is exactly what brought everyone into soring in the first place. That BL colt is exactly what is wrong with the entire industry-- a false image is being feted and approved.

He is step pacing, shaking his head side to side, and when he does go into an up and down head shake he is timing it with his shoulders, not his hind feet. He is braced through the back and neck, and he is refusing to maintain balance front to back, instead choosing to sit on his haunches and stiffly stagger his way across the field in a mockery of a running walk. No, and no again.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, what she/he said exactly. I have a TWH that is pacey. Very difficult to get a true running walk. They were supposed to be BORN to it. Now they are long backed, and sickle hocked with a skinny rear end. Their conformation is not even conducive to do the gait naturally.

This my Johnny from the early 70’s.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f100/sunridge/10-16-2007114637AM.jpg

Look at the short back and substantial hip on the above horse. Compact iron horse that could go all day. Sorry these are all have of this horse. But you get the idea.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f100/sunridge/04-28-2008065655PM.jpg

[WalkInTheWoods]

Shansurri - good post and i was being sarcastic re: the back end on the padded colt.

sunridge - what a gorgeous hunk of horse he was.

[sunridge1]

[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6708131]
Shansurri - good post and i was being sarcastic re: the back end on the padded colt.

sunridge - what a gorgeous hunk of horse he was.[/QUOTE]

He was the best. The first horse I bought on my own at age 14/15. Showed him Open Pleasure for 4H and local shows. He was Grand Champion English Pleasure at our fair. I didn’t think we would have a snowballs chance in hell since we were the only TWH in the county. lol

I remember being disappointed that he wouldn’t go like the BL, with just a pad and a toe weight. Then my Dad explained… and I was horrified.

[hurleycane]

Real classy solid looking horse sunridge1! I bet he was a solid blast. Not sure what breeding he is but he puts me in mind of a TWH at local barn (I do not know his breeding either lol) But very similar in build and coupling as you put it - neck and head as well.

[Shansurri]

[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6708131]
Shansurri - good post and i was being sarcastic re: the back end on the padded colt.

sunridge - what a gorgeous hunk of horse he was.[/QUOTE]

Awe, thank you WalkInTheWoods. I did miss the sarcasm, but it let me vent about something that was bugging me. When WILL they give us a ‘sarcasm’ font?

[Dispatcher]

[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6708014]
Here’s a Titleist 2YO with a rear engine. Too bad it had to be engineered in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea9QeTMcQi8[/QUOTE]

He certainly is struggling to support all his weight on that rear end. That’s not an engine, that’s a STRUGGLE.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=sunridge1;6707955]
You know that is the hard part. Very few are correct in form or conformation. If I had video of my Merry Go Boy grandson from 40 years ago I could show you…They don’t breed them like that anymore. There may a few out there but not many.[/QUOTE]

PM me if you want to know who’s breeding some nice ones from the Old Lines.

[BradleyDick]

It’s a proven fact that the best flat shod AND pleasure horses come directly from big lick breeding.

And the big lick horses continue to get better and better, with more inborn ability, heart, and talent the better the flat shod horses get that come from their breeding.

This is fact.

[BradleyDick]

Jose’ Jose’, Lined With Cash, Armed and Dangerous, A Jazzman, Wicked Gold, GENERATOR’s Sundrop, are all BL horses that produce the best flat shod stock.