Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[katarine]

And I saw him totally lose his *hit and refuse the water obstacle at the AHC Horse Fair, the first year they did the Trail Horse competition. You bought CW and some black mare, Jennie rode them both.

He was overfaced,unsure, and upset. He didn’t place well, not at all. I was into QHs and knew vaguely who he was. I know that the riding and exhibiting I witnessed was deplorable.
The same year Jennie gigged the everlivin’ *hit out of a black mare afraid of an obstacle near the end. Gigged gigged GIGGED. It was UGLY riding.

We placed in the top 5 out of 70. How did yall do? You finally quit hollering about how great thou art when the black mare just sulled up and by God quit. Good for her, as it was ugly.

Must we, Preacher? Must we?

You are not in it for the horses. I’ll never be convinced it’s not all about you.

Notice you didn’t mention his performance at WEG. It was an ugly, disunited mess. You’ve made a circus trick out of a kind, willing horse. An ugly circus trick.

[aarpaso]

if you have so much to say katarine what about Ironworks Tin Man,what happened to him,what happened to the horse Jackie McConnell beat,Moody Star
lets get back on the subject of the abuse the Big Lick trainers do to the Tn Walking Horse.
those for the end of stackes and pads count more than your dislike for someone.thats what the subject is here not you.

[katarine]

I don’t know anything about the outcome on those two horses: do you?

There are only about five active posters on this thread. I think there is room for me. Too bad if you don’t care for it. Questions and challenges were offered and answered. Whether or not I ‘enjoy’ a sidebar with your man Nathaniel will not alter the plight of the TWH. Not one bit.

[Shansurri]

Moody Star is back in the ring. Can’t remember who is showing him now. Someone with a load of HPA violations. Seems like it’s someone connected with McConnell, or used to be. He shows under the name Star now.

That’s justice (or lack of it) for you.

[hurleycane]

Preacher - It will not be possible for any amount of digging or slapping to slide you and your family out of your good place in TWH history. Your horse is honest - and that says a lot. And your efforts are brave - specially back in the day.

And good for you for promoting your horse. He did put a good one or two on the earth with his genes I am sure. And no matter what any one says, both in and out of TWH land - people know your horse. Can’t say that about many horses of any breed.

Your CW has a place in history. One that your promoting gave him. And you are in the business of showing and promoting - well - you did good.

Not sure what bit and such CW was ridden in for the Stackabration, but I would love to see a re-match with your daughter on your big horse in his same tack up against all those stacked horses - - only this time have that same competition wear the same bridle and shoe.

It would be something to see I am sure.

[hurleycane]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4anIouEWqhw

This was well put together. He seems to be hitting a good comfy stride too. Four beating shows well with the rider (look at the chest). Head up or down on the horse - he’s a gaiting!

[sunridge1]

I swear…What a bunch penny ante BS by a bunch of petty ass people. Get rid of Big Lick. The Preacher rocks! even you hate his horse.

If the rest of you are so Effing bold. Get YOUR back-yard asses out there and make difference. OR STFU!

Go EVERYONE that believes the abuse exists. Sheeez I feel I’m debating Climate Change. Like it doesn’t exist or something…

[hurleycane]

Gotta share a great comment from a friend. She compared the TWH stack of pads as being like strapping 4 Volkswagons to the horse’s feet. Who knows, maybe one day 50 clowns will roll out of each foot onto center ring.

It needs to stop.

[CFFarm]

[QUOTE=katarine;6706373]
And I saw him totally lose his *hit and refuse the water obstacle at the AHC Horse Fair, the first year they did the Trail Horse competition. You bought CW and some black mare, Jennie rode them both.

He was overfaced,unsure, and upset. He didn’t place well, not at all. I was into QHs and knew vaguely who he was. I know that the riding and exhibiting I witnessed was deplorable.
The same year Jennie gigged the everlivin’ *hit out of a black mare afraid of an obstacle near the end. Gigged gigged GIGGED. It was UGLY riding.

We placed in the top 5 out of 70. How did yall do? You finally quit hollering about how great thou art when the black mare just sulled up and by God quit. Good for her, as it was ugly.

Must we, Preacher? Must we?

You are not in it for the horses. I’ll never be convinced it’s not all about you.

Notice you didn’t mention his performance at WEG. It was an ugly, disunited mess. You’ve made a circus trick out of a kind, willing horse. An ugly circus trick.[/QUOTE]

In case you didn’t know, showing is about the best horse that day. It must be nice to never have had a less than perfect show. This is why all this crap started. Egos plain and simple.

If the horses had the choice between stacked and flat shod, I wonder what they’d pick?

[The_Preacher]

Mornin;

The people above who have painted such un-colorful pictures and images of not only, my horse, my wife’s training and myself all I can say is bless your hearts.

Haters are confused admirers who can’t understand why everybody loves you.

also; If you listen verrrry closely to haters & critics, you’ll hear the death gargle of a non achiever

Here’s what they are afraid of folks;

Yesterday The HSUS filed a brief as it were, with 11 different Tennessee’s County District Attorneys,

What does that mean?

Disclaimer; No one has told me anything about what I “think” it all means.

By filing this request with the state’s DA the HSUS has asked that their offices investigate not only the published result of, but recheck the swabs taken of horses feet before a horse show, occurring after July 1, 2012 read in part;

Since July 1, Tennessee’s new felony aggravated cruelty to livestock law has been in effect, making it a Class E felony for any person to apply “acid or other caustic substance or chemical to any exposed area of an animal or forcing the animal to ingest the substance,” if such activity is carried out in a “depraved and sadistic manner.” According to The HSUS’s letter, any samples taken after that date that test positive for the presence of caustic chemicals could therefore indicate a possible violation of this law and be grounds for enforcement.

The request ask they re-test any swabs obtained by The Walking Horse Trainers’ Association headquarter in Shelbyville, TN, it also ask for the results also obtained by The USDA since Jul 1, 2012. the swabs to also include the 2012 Celebration Horse Show.

So in my opinion this is what all this means, The HSUS sent out these request to 11 of Tennessee’s County District Attorneys, so there could be several cases going on at one time in several different counties in TN.

Should this happen, many trainer’s and possibility their owners face felony charges under the new Tennessee Animal Cruelty Laws.

What does it mean? Well, for one, every class that these horses may have been in or which a convicted trainer showed in (that would have disqualified him to show in any class after the date he was convicted) would be re-tied, ribbons returned and any cash won also returned, the show managers will have to re-tie the class.

Champagne Watchout could come out as the 2012 Tennessee Walking Horse World Grand Champion!!

[Guilherme]

A bunch of you deserve a 15 yard penalty and loss of down for roughing the poster, piling on, and ad hominem argument.

But the worst sin is “thread drift.” CW is not issue; was not the issue; and ought not to be the issue. Neither is the Preacher’s character or lack thereof. Or Jenny Jackson’s riding skill or lack thereof.

It’s the prevalence of injury to horses trained in the BL process. That includes the illegal practices of soring AND the legal, but injurious, practice of padding up horses as early as 12 months.

I’m not the “hall monitor” but merely a voice crying in the wilderness, “Keep to the issue, people.”

G.

[hurleycane]

I sorta agree G - purpose becomes a bit of a jellied blob when folks take any topic personal. But it is a tactic in any political arena - to discredit. Sometimes it works for you or against you.

Getting this law passed - though full of good purpose - is very political by nature.

So thread drift and frustration are gonna happen.

I vote you hall monitor.

[hurleycane]

[QUOTE=The Preacher;6706725]
Mornin;

The people above who have painted such un-colorful pictures and images of not only, my horse, my wife’s training and myself all I can say is bless your hearts.

Haters are confused admirers who can’t understand why everybody loves you.

also; If you listen verrrry closely to haters & critics, you’ll hear the death gargle of a non achiever

Here’s what they are afraid of folks;

Yesterday The HSUS filed a brief as it were, with 11 different Tennessee’s County District Attorneys,

What does that mean?

Disclaimer; No one has told me anything about what I “think” it all means.

By filing this request with the state’s DA the HSUS has asked that their offices investigate not only the published result of, but recheck the swabs taken of horses feet before a horse show, occurring after July 1, 2012 read in part;

Since July 1, Tennessee’s new felony aggravated cruelty to livestock law has been in effect, making it a Class E felony for any person to apply “acid or other caustic substance or chemical to any exposed area of an animal or forcing the animal to ingest the substance,” if such activity is carried out in a “depraved and sadistic manner.” According to The HSUS’s letter, any samples taken after that date that test positive for the presence of caustic chemicals could therefore indicate a possible violation of this law and be grounds for enforcement.

The request ask they re-test any swabs obtained by The Walking Horse Trainers’ Association headquarter in Shelbyville, TN, it also ask for the results also obtained by The USDA since Jul 1, 2012. the swabs to also include the 2012 Celebration Horse Show.

So in my opinion this is what all this means, The HSUS sent out these request to 11 of Tennessee’s County District Attorneys, so there could be several cases going on at one time in several different counties in TN.

Should this happen, many trainer’s and possibility their owners face felony charges under the new Tennessee Animal Cruelty Laws.

What does it mean? Well, for one, every class that these horses may have been in or which a convicted trainer showed in (that would have disqualified him to show in any class after the date he was convicted) would be re-tied, ribbons returned and any cash won also returned, the show managers will have to re-tie the class.

Champagne Watchout could come out as the 2012 Tennessee Walking Horse World Grand Champion!![/QUOTE]

It would be fun to see em recount the money!:winkgrin:

ETA - IMO money well spent by HSUS for the welfare of the equine. Push it!

[The_Gringo]

[QUOTE=Gnalli;6704231]
He might have made his point better if he had a. been turned out properly, and b. had a horse with any talent. CW is beautiful and would be a good trail horse. He however, can not walk correctly. Put him up against 90 other barefoot or keg shod natural horses pulled out of the pasture and he won’t place high at all. He’s beautiful, and seems pleasant natured, but he hitches in the front end and his strides just aren’t there. Forget the rest of it for a moment. Put the horse in the class he belongs in and he still won’t do well, regardless of who is riding, who owns him, or anything at all.[/QUOTE]

Gnalli, I have to say I pretty much agree with everything you said in this post and the next one you made. I also agree with Katerine in that it is just a saddle. You can put the finest Whitman cutback saddle money can buy on this horse and it won’t improve him one bit.

You said he’d make a good trail horse which I can agree with unfortunately that’s not what he is being presented as. He’s been presented as a horse worthy of consideration for the highest of honors within the breed. Sound as he may be there isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that will ever happen. The reason being that besides what has been pointed out as to his lack of ability in the way he uses his legs he doesn’t set his head well and lacks the relaxed loose way of going the breed has become known for.

Putting all that aside what really puts this horse out of contention for World Grand Championship honors is his conformation. A walking horse should be closely coupled or short in the back if you will. Look at the length of this horse’s back and keep in mind that this horse is standing at stud.

Unless you are looking to replace the family sedan with a horse having a back so long you can transport your entire family there isn’t much reason to consider this horse as a potential sire.

Unfortunately the kind disposition the TWH is well known for is also a curse in that far too few are gelded as a result. Just because a horse has male parts doesn’t mean he was destined to become a breeding stallion. This lack of proper selection in breeding in addition to the soring issue has prevented the TWH from being more admired and accepted both by the general public as well as horse owners of other breeds.

[Fairfax]

What money was spent by HSUS? Writing 11 letters by their legal department? Notice HSUS has NOT spent any of their money on soring tests or anything that could be of value to law officials.

They are pounding the same abuse video in Europe collecting donations to end this barbaric American equine activity…

To be honest…owners of other breeds do not know much about the TWH. Mention Bask, Ruffian, Imperator or Sky Watch, Impressive etc and people recognize the name. Give them ANY name past or present of a TWH and all you will get is a blank look.

It would be a shame to have an average horse become a world champion…but then that is also what happens in the world of politics where the inept sneak through the middle of a split vote.

[cordial]

[QUOTE=katarine;6706373]
And I saw him totally lose his *hit and refuse the water obstacle at the AHC Horse Fair, the first year they did the Trail Horse competition. You bought CW and some black mare, Jennie rode them both.

He was overfaced,unsure, and upset. He didn’t place well, not at all. I was into QHs and knew vaguely who he was. I know that the riding and exhibiting I witnessed was deplorable.
The same year Jennie gigged the everlivin’ *hit out of a black mare afraid of an obstacle near the end. Gigged gigged GIGGED. It was UGLY riding.

We placed in the top 5 out of 70. How did yall do? You finally quit hollering about how great thou art when the black mare just sulled up and by God quit. Good for her, as it was ugly.

Must we, Preacher? Must we?

You are not in it for the horses. I’ll never be convinced it’s not all about you.

Notice you didn’t mention his performance at WEG. It was an ugly, disunited mess. You’ve made a circus trick out of a kind, willing horse. An ugly circus trick.[/QUOTE]

Everyting that The Preacher does is for him getting his name into the public. Even people who are against the pads and chains think he is big-loud mouth, always running his mouth. They just try and pretend he isn’t there.
Also, Mr, Preacher, I heard a nasty rumor that your wife got a ticket at one of the TWH’s show. Is this true?? Inquiring minds want to know.

[aarpaso]

Really than why would he have done this,knowing that most of the people in TWHBEA dislike him.

Lewisburg TN - At the 2012 Tennessee Walking Horse Breeders’ And Exhibitors’ Association (TWHBEA) General Membership Meeting, held November 30, 2012, TWHBEA member from Tennessee Nathanael Jackson, with great support from President Marty Irby, motioned that a committee be established to help any Association members that find themselves in need. Included in his motion was the idea to name the committee Micah Care in honor of Micah Bailey, a Tennessee Walking Horse Youth Association member who recently lost his battle with cancer. The motion carried unanimously.

because he is a GOOD PERSON.

[Fairfax]

[I]The Jacksons, owners of Walkin On Ranch in Cooke*ville, Tenn., are the official breed representatives of the Tennessee walking horse at the Alltech FEI World Equestrian Games. Starting Sunday, Jennie Jackson will demonstrate a training technique she has devised called dressage en gait.

Nathanael and Jennie Jackson by Pablo Acala
The Jacksons are hoping those demonstrations will open the doors to a new dressage discipline that would allow gaited horses to compete against one another

Jennie Jackson and a growing number of other trainers and owners advocate a more natural way to improve the gait, but it takes longer for the horse to learn.
In her method, she said, “You have three aids: your legs, your seat and your hands. (Illegal trainers) like to use gimmicks

In 1983, Jennie Jackson decided not to use the soring technique, knowing that move alone might prevent her from fulfilling her dream of being named a Trainer of the Year for the breed.
From then on, “they rejected us in every way, in every form and fashion,” Nathanael Jackson said. “There were physical threats and slander.”

He said competitors also added horses after deadlines to try to push them out from finishing high.
“They would not accept us,” he said.[/I]

I did not realize that Jennie was so very unique in using the “natural” training techniques…legs, seat and hands. Training and Gaiting by Susanne would appear to agree however that book was written in 1943. Heads Up-Heels Down by C. W. Anderson was written 1961. Or how about Dressage, The Finer Points of Riding by Wynmalen in 1953. Try as I might…I can not locate a passage where any of these authors take credit for “that technique”

Of course, Merlene Davis, the author of the article about this couple was more interested in the inter-racial aspects of the marriage and horse training rather than accuracy.

Here is another gem

[I]"The Jacksons are hoping those demonstrations will open the doors to a new dressage discipline that would allow gaited horses to compete against one another.

WEG officials invited the Jacksons because Jennie Jackson developed the test and gait descriptions that were submitted to dressage and equestrian organizations.
That is just another chapter in the lives of a couple who have pushed boundaries in every area of their lives."[/I]

Is this an example of Fact … or Fiction… or just old fashioned P.R.?

http://merlenedavis.bloginky.com/2010/10/06/interracial-couple-seeks-acceptance-in-horse-industry/

Here is the link however it doesn’t seem to always work. If not, just google Mr. Jacksons name…go to page two of google and the link will appear

[spookhorse]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6707219]
[I]The Jacksons, owners of Walkin On Ranch in Cooke*ville, Tenn., are the official breed representatives of the Tennessee walking horse at the Alltech FEI World Equestrian Games. Starting Sunday, Jennie Jackson will demonstrate a training technique she has devised called dressage en gait.

Nathanael and Jennie Jackson by Pablo Acala
The Jacksons are hoping those demonstrations will open the doors to a new dressage discipline that would allow gaited horses to compete against one another

Jennie Jackson and a growing number of other trainers and owners advocate a more natural way to improve the gait, but it takes longer for the horse to learn.
In her method, she said, "You have three aids: your legs, your seat and your hands. (Illegal trainers) like to use gimmicks

In 1983, Jennie Jackson decided not to use the soring technique, knowing that move alone might prevent her from fulfilling her dream of being named a Trainer of the Year for the breed.
From then on, “they rejected us in every way, in every form and fashion,” Nathanael Jackson said. “There were physical threats and slander.”

He said competitors also added horses after deadlines to try to push them out from finishing high.
“They would not accept us,” he said.[/I]

I did not realize that Jennie was so very unique in using the “natural” training techniques…legs, seat and hands. Training and Gaiting by Susanne would appear to agree however that book was written in 1943. Heads Up-Heels Down by C. W. Anderson was written 1961. Or how about Dressage, The Finer Points of Riding by Wynmalen in 1953. Try as I might…I can not locate a passage where any of these authors take credit for “that technique”

Of course, Merlene Davis, the author of the article about this couple was more interested in the inter-racial aspects of the marriage and horse training rather than accuracy.

Here is another gem

[I]"The Jacksons are hoping those demonstrations will open the doors to a new dressage discipline that would allow gaited horses to compete against one another.

WEG officials invited the Jacksons because Jennie Jackson developed the test and gait descriptions that were submitted to dressage and equestrian organizations.
That is just another chapter in the lives of a couple who have pushed boundaries in every area of their lives."[/I]

Is this an example of Fact … or Fiction… or just old fashioned P.R.?

http://merlenedavis.bloginky.com/2010/10/06/interracial-couple-seeks-acceptance-in-horse-industry/

Here is the link however it doesn’t seem to always work. If not, just google Mr. Jacksons name…go to page two of google and the link will appear[/QUOTE]

Merlene Davis doesn’t have a thing to do with the horse industry here so she likely wouldn’t know a thing about natural techniques in horsemanship. Mrs. Davis basically writes about family topics. Read the sidebar on that blog page and you’ll see she doesn’t claim to know anything about horses.

[spookhorse]

@The Gringo;6706813

Putting all that aside what really puts this horse out of contention for World Grand Championship honors is his conformation. A walking horse should be closely coupled or short in the back if you will. Look at the length of this horse’s back and keep in mind that this horse is standing at stud.

Well, if we’re going to judge the WGC according to the rule book, then every one of the horses showing needs to be knocked down for not gaiting correctly, because the Big Lick isn’t the desired, natural gait as described in the rulebook:

http://www.showhio.com/documents/Division%20and%20Class%20Rules%20&%20Requirements%20Section.pdf

The Performance Horse should move freely in each gait and proceed in a smooth, fluid, rhythmic manner. At all gaits the horse should be flexed at the poll with muzzle slightly tucked Stiff front or rear leg motion, stumbling, bucking knees, lack of rhythmic timing, pointing or favoring a particular leg, necessity for excessive pumping or bumping of the horse, or any tendency to rack pace or other deviation from the true walk are not typical of the breed. The preceding mannerisms are not considered good form and shall be penalized in judging.

-AND-

I Qualifying Gaits [/I]
I The Flat Walk should be a smooth four beat gait. The two factors that make this smooth gait distinctive to our breed are the overstride of the hind legs, along with a head shake. Overstride can be described as the hind foot sliding over the front tracks. While overstriding, the horse should have no vertical action with its hock, only forward motion. The head shake should be a vertical motion that is in perfect rhythm and cadence with the horses legs. The head shake, front legs, and rear legs should be in cadence/rhythm together. The forelegs should move straight, breaking at the knees and reaching forward in an elevated arc. The horse “rear end” should not be out behind, but up under itself. The horse should not have a tendency to pace, rack or trot. If he isn’t shaking he isn’t walking. [/I]
I The Running Walk is also a smooth, four beat gait. This is a faster gait where the horse “extends” his stride and covers more ground with each step. Excessive speed is not desirable. [/I]
I The Canter is a three beat gait. While traveling counter clockwise the horse should exhibit the left canter lead. The first beat of the left lead is the right rear leg, followed by the left rear and the right front together, ending with the left front. On the third beat, the horses left front and left rear legs will be ‘leading” the right. The reverse of this will be the right lead. The Tennessee Walking Horse has a distinct “rocking” motion while cantering, which has led it to being described as “The Rocking Chair Canter”. The canter should be smooth and straight on both leads comfortably in hand. Exaggerated “pumping” of the horse at the canter is not considered good form.

[/I]–AND–

Judges should value the innate grace and beauty of this breed instead of rewarding the manufactured extravagant and exaggerated gaits. This will facilitate a more rapid return to horsemanship and training devoid of intolerable abuses.

I’m sorry, but I see more twisting hocks, and riders pumping their horses than I can even describe, against the rules set forth. I don’t see fluid, gorgeous gaits, I see a spider crawling around the ring until it’s time to stop and take a breath and turn around and do it again. The gaits I see are “extravagant and exaggerated” which according to the most recent rules, are to be penalized against. The gaits I see deviate from the “true walk” of the breed. And I notice they took out the part about the horses not being allowed to stop for breathers…

As for Champagne Watchout being adorned in a Dressage saddle for the WGC classes, SHOW states that it is acceptable:

http://www.showhio.com/documents/Division%20and%20Class%20Rules%20&%20Requirements%20Section.pdf

I All horses must use an English saddle, except where divisions or class rules permit otherwise. A cutback English saddle is the traditional saddle for the walking horse, however, a dressage saddle is acceptable.[/I]