Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[hurleycane]

For those that “know” or maybe wanna know I have to point out that some of the stills posted above show horses in a “pace” not a running walk. The stacked chestnut exampled is in a pace (off side legs are both off the ground) and so too is the baby.

The pacing horse does have great over stride. The stack breaks up the foot fall timing from 2 beat to 4 beat and makes it smooth but not a running walk.

Sure a lot of these stacked horses can do a running walk - but they can do it without the stack and chain. And without the chain and stack they can do it for miles - not just the few minutes the crawl subjects them to.

[WalkInTheWoods]

[QUOTE=cordial;6754264]
Beg your pardon…it is not going on in Ohio. Where do you get your very wrong information???[/QUOTE]

@cordial;6765559

No, you are not "hitting a nerve:, I know way more aboutt Ohio then you do, so keep on stirring the pot and trying to make all people in Ohio Look bad. Have a great New Year!You are so totally wrong, but Time will tell…won’t it!

hey there cordial - don’t put words in my mouth. I never said all Ohio TWH horsemen are bad. Those are your words. You are quoted saying that soring does not take place in your state of Ohio. The HPA Violation list proves that soring does indeed go on in the state of Ohio and by Ohio horsemen who travel out of state to show and there are many occurrences in the last 3 years. You have a happy new year too. :yes:

[BradleyDick]

Working hard, and having stresses applied to the body is nether cruel or damaging if the horse is properly conditioned to handle the stresses… It sounds like a lot of you are against a horse actually working in the show ring or giving any effort… But trail ridding in the mountains all day once or twice a week is ok…

[Rapaloosa]

Those poor horses show more signs of stress and exertion during a short jaunt around the show ring than my trail riders do in the course of a day long ride. The eye rolling, heavily sweating horses I see crawling around our local show ring do not appear to be properly conditioned, nor in my observation could those horses ever be very conditioned while being forced to totter around on those high shoes.

And just as a snarky comment, it is my opinion that part of the reason the horses are so padded up and chained up and sored is so that the so called “riders” can handle them. I bet most of those out of shape 20’s gangster costumed men couldn’t handle those same horses if they were allowed to perform normally without all the gimmicks. Sorry… just the way it looks to those of us on the outside…

[MistyBlue]

Th![](s isn’t Saddle Club. This is a BB with a heavy population of professionals.
So no, you’re not discussing this with mainly once a week trail riders. You’re discussing this with a board full of people with decades of experience and well versed in showing, training, breeding, conditioning, instructing and equine health and anatomy.
It’s not easy to snow people here with half truths or inexperience.

You, personally, have made blanket statements that either show little knowledge of equines and equine sports in general or that hint towards condescension of what you (erroneously) consider naive My Pretty Pony ladies.

I have also noticed that you fail to respond to certain questions or points.

A horse who’s angles have been lifted and changed to such an exaggerated degree for aesthetic purposes cannot be conditioned to those angles properly. It can become somewhat accustomed to having it’s conformation and movement changed. But how does one properly condition the horse with numerous pads/stacks? Conditioning requires slowly building up capacity, stamina and muscle over longer and longer working times over various terrain. Color me skeptical on Big Lick horses being taken out on conditioning rides.

Will you be replying to the earlier:

You:

Breathing heavy after an extensive work out is normal… In the ring these horses give it their all, and exert themselves… They don’t just piddle around the ring dragging their feet and going along lazily… They put forth effort and use their limbs… That requires effort, and lots of it, the result is breathing heavy… Breathing heavy is not abuse… Nor is exersizing the horse to that point…

Explain endurance horses then.
Field Hunters.
Speed equitation horses.
Haute Ecole.
Matadore or Picadore horses.
Eventers on cross country courses.
CDE horses.
Polo ponies.

Far more effort. Far longer time competing. Far less lather and heaving.

Horses are capable of being conditioned and trained up to be able to handle these levels of physical activity in sport without any of the lather and heaving seen in a BL horse.

None of us have anything against working a healthy, fit, well conformed animal hard. Many of us are strong advocates for tougher conditioning of both horses and riders.
Nobody has any objections to a horse showing exertion or the effects of that after a ride.
Heavy breathing is fine.

Heaving sides, dripping sweat and lather/foan covering a horse after a few piddly minutes of performing a slow gait it was bred to perform is ridiculous. To the Nth degree.

Horses coming out of Tevis show a LOT less strain for heaven’s sake. And a few minutes of Big Licking around groomed footing with the rider looking like a monkey humping a football is not in any way physically comparable to 100 miles of this in a single day:
[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/MistyBlue5105/tevis_photo_zpsc23bb228.jpg)

[hurleycane]

[QUOTE=BradleyDick;6765779]
Working hard, and having stresses applied to the body is nether cruel or damaging if the horse is properly conditioned to handle the stresses… It sounds like a lot of you are against a horse actually working in the show ring or giving any effort… But trail ridding in the mountains all day once or twice a week is ok…[/QUOTE]

These stacked horses do “hard work???” Heck no!

Their “easy” work is made hard by the stacks and chains. They are made to struggle with each step. Common knowledge if they are not kept straight and moving or closed in a stall each step comes with great risk to the “stacked” horse. Simply walking on a lose rein on a flat show ring ground can put these stacked horses flat on their faces. We have all seen pictures and videos where simply stopping the poor horse is a calamity.

Like the above poster said - stacked horses are pretty much hobbled.

For a brief minute you sounded reasonable with offering to accept “some limits.” Not so with your subsequent posts. Par for the course that you play this distortion record over and over, skipping on the same bad groove.

ANd now the world knows why we need HR6388.

It is for those who simply have no ability to open their eyes and see.

[sunridge1]

sarcasm alert Yeah while keeping a horse in a stall all stacked/stocked up 24/7 is so MUCH better. Their bone density is like steel and their soles are hard as rocks. No thrush or P-3 rotation EVER happens.

not sarcasm Do you padded horse people know anything about healthy horse husbandry even just a tiny bit?

[remuda6]

Bradley are you pro horse slaughter? It seems that the walking horse show community thinks this is an answer to all of their problems?The Calvary Group LLC is based in MO, they are trying to open a horse slaughter plant there. Do you support The Calvary Group and why? How will becoming a member of this group help the TWH industry? They could care less about the problems of the THW industry, they just want horse meat! How would you feel if someone stole your new horse and it ended up on some frenchmen’s plate? I guess the logic is any TWH that doesn’t make it as a padded horse, isn’t worth anything. All this just because a small fraction of the TW

[frugalannie]

[QUOTE=BradleyDick;6765779]
Working hard, and having stresses applied to the body is nether cruel or damaging if the horse is properly conditioned to handle the stresses… It sounds like a lot of you are against a horse actually working in the show ring or giving any effort… But trail ridding in the mountains all day once or twice a week is ok…[/QUOTE]

Mr. Dick, I assume this is directed at me. For your reference, my equestrian background was in polo and I have been in eventing for more than 20 years, two disciplines that demand equine fitness for the safety of both horse and rider. I am very aware of the anatomy and physiology as well as the natural and trained capabilities of horses. As you may recall, I posted the video of a dressage horse performing a test as an example of an animal at the highest level of collection and performance but not exhibiting untoward stress.

As Misty Blue has noted, there is a level of knowledge among the posters on this board that is significant, and many are truly exceptional in their knowledge. That many of these posters do not feel that stacking and chaining (not to mention soring) are benign is an excellent barometer of the educated view of a broad cross section of concerned and knowedgeable horsemen/ horsewomen in this country.

[CFFarm]

[QUOTE=frugalannie;6765994]
Mr. Dick, I assume this is directed at me. For your reference, my equestrian background was in polo and I have been in eventing for more than 20 years, two disciplines that demand equine fitness for the safety of both horse and rider. I am very aware of the anatomy and physiology as well as the natural and trained capabilities of horses. As you may recall, I posted the video of a dressage horse performing a test as an example of an animal at the highest level of collection and performance but not exhibiting untoward stress.

As Misty Blue has noted, there is a level of knowledge among the posters on this board that is significant, and many are truly exceptional in their knowledge. That many of these posters do not feel that stacking and chaining (not to mention soring) are benign is an excellent barometer of the educated view of a broad cross section of concerned and knowedgeable horsemen/ horsewomen in this country.[/QUOTE]

Maybe if Mr. Dick expanded his equine knowledge into more than just the discipline he’s involved in with the other “Good Ole Boys” (as he suggests the posters here need to do) he might realize that BL is harmful to the horse. I also suggest riding lessons to most of these guys.

[Shansurri]

[QUOTE=BradleyDick;6765779]
Working hard, and having stresses applied to the body is nether cruel or damaging if the horse is properly conditioned to handle the stresses… It sounds like a lot of you are against a horse actually working in the show ring or giving any effort… But trail ridding in the mountains all day once or twice a week is ok…[/QUOTE]

Working a horse and stressing it physically can indeed have longterm bad effects on a horse, even IF it is conditioned properly (the BL horses are poorly conditioned). Jumpers don’t jump their horses daily-- dressage horses don’t perform advanced maneuvers daily. Barrel horses don’t turn and burn on a daily basis.

Big Lick? They are on those pads 24/7, and every single time they are worked they must lug and drag those pads around (along with bicycle chain bits). Oh, and the chains, which everyone insists never get above 6 oz., even though the Auburn study conclusively proved that the horse’s motion with anything under 7 oz. chains did not discernibly change at ALL. In small words, what I am saying is that 6 oz. or less caused no damage, but ALSO no change in the horse’s gait. Anything over 6 oz. caused damage within a very short amount of time (2 fifteen minute sessions, IIRC). And also not much change in the horse’s gait. Hmmm… chains by themselves don’t cause a gait change? Why DO they use them then?

If the chains caused no damage, if the pads and weird angles caused no damage, the forced exertion beyond what a horse normally would do would STILL result in wear and tear on joints and posture. Wear and tear that occurs every single time the horse moves, because it has no way to escape the trappings that force it into that movement.

[rmh_rider]

I do not think ANY amount of conditioning (speaking from an endurance rider’s perspective) would make the padded/stacked horses BE in any better condition so they do not blow and sweat horribly.

It just is not natural to the way a body (horse) moves. Stacked/padded is NOT natural. Wear and tear on the body is the result.

And the result is the owner down the road (if the horse lives) bares the burden. Horse too.

[remuda6]

The only way the TWH industry is going to stop soring, is if they start using stick horses.

[Amwrider]

[QUOTE=Shansurri;6767231]
Oh, and the chains, which everyone insists never get above 6 oz., even though the Auburn study conclusively proved that the horse’s motion with anything under 7 oz. chains did not discernibly change at ALL. In small words, what I am saying is that 6 oz. or less caused no damage, but ALSO no change in the horse’s gait. Anything over 6 oz. caused damage within a very short amount of time (2 fifteen minute sessions, IIRC). And also not much change in the horse’s gait. Hmmm… chains by themselves don’t cause a gait change? Why DO they use them then? .[/QUOTE]

Just chiming in to say that this is NOT in the Auburn study and the Auburn study does not even address a horse’s motion. I am against Big Lick and soring, but please do NOT make up your own facts and claim that the study “proved conclusively” anything that isn’t even addressed.

Phase XI. Use of 2, 4 and 6 Ounce Chains
The objectives of this study were to evaluate the use of 2, 4
and 6 ounce chains in Tennessee Walking Horses, without using any
other chemical or mechanical technique to induce inflammation.
Use of 2, 4 and 6 oz. chains did not cause any detectable pain,
tissue damage. Thermographic and pressure evaluation did not change
significantly. Thus, it was concluded that the use of 2, 4 and 6 oz.
chains for a duration of 2to 3 weeks did not produce any harmful
effects to the horses’ legs, with exception to some loss of hair
from 6 oz. chains in the pastern areas.

[aarpaso]

Maybe the Bedford County Sheriff,is getting ready to do a better job.

http://www.t-g.com/story/1825651.html

one can only HOPE

[aarpaso]

could the City of Shelbyville be rethinking its image?

http://www.t-g.com/story/1928455.html

one can only HOPE

[hurleycane]

Interesting stuff aarpaso.

This is a good example of the twisted “horsmanship” that has risen from the stacked crowd. And it examples the breakdown of breeding and use that many here speak of and want to move away from. But I am here to tell you there is NO way to educate the folks that are presenting this video. You see they think it is everyone else that is blind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo7b46YE6g0

[Malda]

Wow, that’s a pacey horse. No wonder so few TWH’s have a natural, square walk anymore.

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6771970]
Interesting stuff aarpaso.

This is a good example of the twisted “horsmanship” that has risen from the stacked crowd. And it examples the breakdown of breeding and use that many here speak of and want to move away from. But I am here to tell you there is NO way to educate the folks that are presenting this video. You see they think it is everyone else that is blind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo7b46YE6g0[/QUOTE]

[hurleycane]

Along with being pacey she is off behind. Do you see how bad the sickle hocks are? So she had bad breeding then the misfortune of being stacked. And she seems broken down because of the two.

And for me the sad thing is some say this sickling is what gives them their gait - you know the addage the crookeder they are the better they gait? And it most likely is true that a crooked legged horse will not offer a suspended pace or trot. I am sure the crookedness impairs such movement.

But the sad thing is that many people feel that is is the “sickle hock” that causes a horse to perform a running walk. In fact one of the “sound” horse folks recently promoted breeding a TWH horses with severe sickle hocks. The explanation offered when this horse was excused from a show ring was that the judges did not understand the walking horse.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii144/hurleycane2/backendcokecan.jpg

Above is the excused back end - and no he is not squatting - it is as straight as he can bring his back legs. IMO this physical trait may make him smooth in the short run - but over his life time it has to break him down.

Good riding or not.

http://www.freewebs.com/mmm202/backlegsside.jpg

[scrtwh]

[QUOTE=Shansurri;6767231]
Working a horse and stressing it physically can indeed have longterm bad effects on a horse, even IF it is conditioned properly (the BL horses are poorly conditioned). Jumpers don’t jump their horses daily-- dressage horses don’t perform advanced maneuvers daily. Barrel horses don’t turn and burn on a daily basis.

Big Lick? They are on those pads 24/7, and every single time they are worked they must lug and drag those pads around (along with bicycle chain bits). Oh, and the chains, which everyone insists never get above 6 oz., even though the Auburn study conclusively proved that the horse’s motion with anything under 7 oz. chains did not discernibly change at ALL. In small words, what I am saying is that 6 oz. or less caused no damage, but ALSO no change in the horse’s gait. Anything over 6 oz. caused damage within a very short amount of time (2 fifteen minute sessions, IIRC). And also not much change in the horse’s gait. Hmmm… chains by themselves don’t cause a gait change? Why DO they use them then?

If the chains caused no damage, if the pads and weird angles caused no damage, the forced exertion beyond what a horse normally would do would STILL result in wear and tear on joints and posture. Wear and tear that occurs every single time the horse moves, because it has no way to escape the trappings that force it into that movement.[/QUOTE]

Interestingly enough, if you go to TWH Sale, you can pick out the broken, off pads, Big Lickers in a heartbeat by the crampy, forced way of going. Extremely sad… You just want to shake some sense in these people. Such a wonderful, intelligent, versatile breed and those padded folks just do NOT GET simple, good horse stewardship, or do they care to get it, which is even sadder.