MAN, you guys are right on! I too am really angry that the true FW/RW has been bred right out of the TWH. Finding one that can truly walk is becoming very rare. But at least there are breeders out there who are working to keep that true FW/RW in place. They are the ones we’re going to be going to WHEN the Big Lick dies. (I say WHEN to keep us working hard to end this!)
Well, with regard to my view on gaits - I think it goes against the grain of most here on this thread. And I think it is because 1)my view arises from having been acquainted with a breed that values gaited-ness as well as non gaited-ness and 2) the very natural ability for a horse to have within it more than one gait 3) the firm belief that what a horse does with his feet is very dependent on the rider.
Oh - and I am not so much disagreeing with purists - but I think the more folks come to understand what a true running walk is - the more they appreciate that many a horse - TWH or not - is simply blown past the gait.
And I say TWH or not - cause most “American Breeds” are relatively young/new and very closely related. And as an example I will say I knew a fully registered RMH that had an incredible FW/RW and a get it going rack. And as another example I watched a fully registered TWH do his FW RW Canter and then a very lovely trot and rack.
Sure, for the most part, dependent on breeding/conformation any horse will be brilliant in one or the other gait. But for sure must horses have within them more than one gait - regardless of breeding.
So, my mantra of the breeding potential of a rw/fw gait is they all have more than one gear - only the papers say otherwise and a lot of the gaiting depends on the rider and training of the two.
Watch em in the fields - they offer up a lot more than the registries permit.
For the folks that breed: A question.
I have for a long time heard that the breeding of the stacked horses has ruined the gait. And I do see where some of these successful stacked horses have traits that do not lend well to working in a smooth gait without stacks and weights.
One of those bad traits is that I hear some breeders select for crookedness in breeding gaiters. “The crookeder they are the better they gait.” And this is where I see significant toeing out, cow hocks, camped under, leg winging, butt high etc etc etc horses. And though these horses do not suspend a gait and are therefore smooth - I do question whether they are sound and useful. Cause in many cases I think they lack suspension only because of poor conformation.
So my question is, other than “paciness” what conformation attributes trends do you see being recognizable in the stacked lines that differ from the true TWH?
And BTW my fav TWH olde is this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmExC0boot4
BTW - I think her shoe is a little heavy and would love to have seen her on a loser rein, but my my my she had it!
Malda - I agree . TWH does not recognize any smooth gait other than RW/FW as show worthy for their breed. Well, their regulations do let in a canter and dog walk. But never heard of them desiring a rack or step pace on a show horse.
[QUOTE=Malda;6808793]
You forgot education. People need to stop breeding papers, and learn what a running walk is.[/QUOTE]
No, not really! 
The requirement to “breed for desired traits” implies that the humans have the ability to identify the traits in question, place them in the context of the entire horse, and then select brood stock that will transmit the traits to future offspring.
I don’t suggest in my comments on gait that the rules (in this case, the judging standards) have changed. I do suggest that the running walk has become so astonishingly rare that no one really knows what it looks like and judges end up pinning off gaited horses because that’s all that’s in front of them. Sort of like the “what you see is what you get” approach. It’s a terrible policy but one that’s gone on a very long time.
The Walker is a young breed (compared to the likes of the TB or Arabian). The TWHBEA does not have a breed standard, only a description. Allen F-1 was reputed to have been nine gaited (including the trot). Much of the foundation stock of the TWH was selected by performance testing. Many demonstrated the trot among their other gaits. The “gait jingoists” get wildly exorcised over the possibility of a gaited horse trotting. That, to me, demonstrates deficiency in both historical and equine bio-mechanical knowledge.
A horse with a very lateral gait and any overstride will often have a rear leg slightly longer than might be considered “normal.” This is not a conformation defect if the leg is normally shaped and properly attached to the hip. This will give the impression of being built “downhill” but, again, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. As long as it’s a fully functional part of the whole horse I don’t see any issues. If the leg is not well attached or if, as is common, is “sickle hocked” then you’ve got a serious flaw. A crooked leg is not as strong as a straight leg (“straight” here meaning the leg has proper articulations). The bent hock actually is an advantage in over stride and that is an advantage in some gaits. But the bent leg will break down sooner that the straight leg and the horse’s performance career will likely be shorter.
The conformational differences of a gaited horse vs. a trotting horse will be few and subtle. Just what they might be will be determined by breed (what does the breed standard require) and by way of going. A lateral gait might well have some differences to a more diagonal gait. But, again, these differences will be subtle. And in no case should they be outright flaws, like sickle hocks.
G.
This gelding is the most naturally gaited horse I own.
Notice he has normal shoes, nothing ‘gaited’ or weird.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/susanpr/8408639017/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/susanpr/8409738420/
this stepping under shot ( I think) shows how the angles can work together to create a deep reach -
Yea boy Katarine! - he is fingerlicking good to look at for sure. I remember the videos you posted of him before - nice natural relaxed mover. I bet he feels like a dream to ride.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;6807824]
I’ve been told, point blank and in person, by multiple TWH Names that you don’t use the leg or seat with a Walker, only the hand. On the rare occasion the leg is used it’s to spur the horse to greater effort. The butt stays against the cantle to encourage the horse to “raise” the front end (i.e., application of the “rocking horse theory of equine moment”).
And the Names are correct if you’re talking about the show ring. Just not anywhere else.
G.[/QUOTE]
You are very wrong about TWH riders only using their hands. Our trainer works alot with her clients to ride off your legs and your Butt. Our twh’s are so side sensitive that you can move them quickly in any direction. You must have never ridden a very talented TWH if you have never experienced that talent.
[QUOTE=cordial;6809353]
You are very wrong about TWH riders only using their hands. Our trainer works alot with her clients to ride off your legs and your Butt. Our twh’s are so side sensitive that you can move them quickly in any direction. You must have never ridden a very talented TWH if you have never experienced that talent.[/QUOTE]
Certainly couldn’t see any of that kind of work in the sales videos.
[QUOTE=cordial;6809353]
You are very wrong about TWH riders only using their hands. Our trainer works alot with her clients to ride off your legs and your Butt. Our twh’s are so side sensitive that you can move them quickly in any direction. You must have never ridden a very talented TWH if you have never experienced that talent.[/QUOTE]
No, I’m quite correct. Maybe your trainer does these things, but maybe not.
Why not post your trainer’s name and some video and we’ll see if what you say is correct or not?
Otherwise just spend some time on u-tube and watch and learn.
G.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;6809689]
No, I’m quite correct. Maybe your trainer does these things, but maybe not.
Why not post your trainer’s name and some video and we’ll see if what you say is correct or not?
Otherwise just spend some time on u-tube and watch and learn.
G.[/QUOTE]
AllI know that when anybody up North buys a TWH that has been trained and started in the south…most trainers up north have to train a horse and teach him or her to be side sensitive and to be able to use your butt when riding.
[QUOTE=CFFarm;6809457]
Certainly couldn’t see any of that kind of work in the sales videos.[/QUOTE]
Just because you don’t see it in your so-called video’s doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.
[QUOTE=cordial;6809799]
Just because you don’t see it in your so-called video’s doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.[/QUOTE]
You mean they aren’t videos, they are actually iguanas??
[QUOTE=Guilherme;6809689]
No, I’m quite correct. Maybe your trainer does these things, but maybe not.
Why not post your trainer’s name and some video and we’ll see if what you say is correct or not?
Otherwise just spend some time on u-tube and watch and learn.
G.[/QUOTE]
No, you are not correct…I am from the North where you see alot of pleasure horses that are trained to do , many other things ,then just go forward. You are always so certain of your damn facts about Walking Horses, and are always so sure of yoursel, but you are incorrect in many facts, and this is one of them. Our flat-shod horses can do Flying lead changes, side passes, 360, and are very side , also. Granted it is harder to ride a horse off your legs, and your seat then just pulling them in the mouth with your arms and hands, but we do it all the time, and I’ll bet there are other walkinghorse people that will agree with me and not you.
[QUOTE=cordial;6809813]
No, you are not correct…I am from the North where you see alot of pleasure horses that are trained to do , many other things ,then just go forward. You are always so certain of your damn facts about Walking Horses, and are always so sure of yoursel, but you are incorrect in many facts, and this is one of them. Our flat-shod horses can do Flying lead changes, side passes, 360, and are very side , also. Granted it is harder to ride a horse off your legs, and your seat then just pulling them in the mouth with your arms and hands, but we do it all the time, and I’ll bet there are other walkinghorse people that will agree with me and not you.[/QUOTE]
If you stop frothing at the mouth you won’t get your computer screen so wet.
Yes, I am “damn sure of myself.” Anybody who wants to verify what I’ve said only need spend some time with u-tube (if they don’t want to take the time to attend a TWH show).
Do some Walkers ride in a classical fashion. Yes; mine used to. But the numbers that follow that road are small. In the flat-shod show ring they are a clear minority. In the Big Lick show ring they are non-existent.
You see a lot of “forked seat” riding in Walkers (and in Racking and SSHs). This was the dominant style before the development of two things: posting and the Caprilli “forward seat.” Later these two styles would combine to form the “balanced seat.” Normally you don’t post on a Walker but that doesn’t mean you just sit up there like an old sack of wheat. Again, spend some time watching and you’ll see very little use of the leg except to spur forward and little use of the seat.
G.
P.S. How about that info on your trainer?
Somehow i just cant see a padded performance horse doing sidepasses. Clunk Clunk CLunk ooops Oh sorry just noticed it was cordial’s flatshods that do that (as they should be able to)
[QUOTE=Guilherme;6809821]
If you stop frothing at the mouth you won’t get your computer screen so wet.
Yes, I am “damn sure of myself.” Anybody who wants to verify what I’ve said only need spend some time with u-tube (if they don’t want to take the time to attend a TWH show).
Do some Walkers ride in a classical fashion. Yes; mine used to. But the numbers that follow that road are small. In the flat-shod show ring they are a clear minority. In the Big Lick show ring they are non-existent.
You see a lot of “forked seat” riding in Walkers (and in Racking and SSHs). This was the dominant style before the development of two things: posting and the Caprilli “forward seat.” Later these two styles would combine to form the “balanced seat.” Normally you don’t post on a Walker but that doesn’t mean you just sit up there like an old sack of wheat. Again, spend some time watching and you’ll see very little use of the leg except to spur forward and little use of the seat.
G.
P.S. How about that info on your trainer?[/QUOTE]
all over the screen
By the way…I am not about to “frouth” all over the screen…how rude and nasty are you? I will talk to my traner and ask her to video our horses and see if she is willing to take the time to do that, but you are a mean-spirited person .
[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6809879]
Somehow i just cant see a padded performance horse doing sidepasses. Clunk Clunk CLunk ooops Oh sorry just noticed it was cordial’s flatshods that do that (as they should be able to)[/QUOTE]
I never implied that our padded horse could do side-passages…I said our pleasure horses. By the way the Golf Coast Horse in Florida in April is back on again.
You know, Cordial, everyone’s been very kind about my TWH doing gaited dressage, I’ve posted videos of him here, no big deal.
If your Flat Shod horses/pleasure horses can do flying changes, sidepass, and spin ( I am guessing that’s what a 360 is) and all that jazz, the best way to shut up the ‘haters’ is to just show your cards and show them that it’s true. Doesn’t everyone that shows a horse have videos of that horse? Especially walking horse peeps- since it’s all about the gait they are forever taking videos.
Just prove it. That’s all you’d have to do.
[QUOTE=katarine;6809963]
You know, Cordial, everyone’s been very kind about my TWH doing gaited dressage, I’ve posted videos of him here, no big deal.
If your Flat Shod horses/pleasure horses can do flying changes, sidepass, and spin ( I am guessing that’s what a 360 is) and all that jazz, the best way to shut up the ‘haters’ is to just show your cards and show them that it’s true. Doesn’t everyone that shows a horse have videos of that horse? Especially walking horse peeps- since it’s all about the gait they are forever taking videos.
Just prove it. That’s all you’d have to do.[/QUOTE]
I appreciate your kind words, but because we own a padded horse the haters will never believe …even if I post a million pictures, that I am saying the truth. I am surprised that they don’t blash you for your dressage efforts. MY trainer also works in a little dressage with all her TWH clients…she just does alot of things that some trainers don’t bother with.
I know that there are other TWH posters on here that have Padded horses, and flat-shod for that matter, but don’t come on here anymore because of the bashing that they receive… I an due to go in and get my knee relolplaced in one week. When I am able to ride again, and the weather gets better I will get some videos. I might even throw one in of our wonderful padded horse. Then you watch them scream!!! LOL
