When I was a kid (about 9 yrs old) my dad bought me a daughter of Merry Go Boy. She had been a successful show horse. You couldn’t tie her up and get near her feet, and men couldn’t pick out her hooves or get near her feet. I have a good idea now, why she was like that.
We had her shod in regular shoes, and just pleasure rode. I didn’t know about soring, back then.
[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6325485]
… to sell the breedings… and reap the benefits of training bills and showing expenses for the offspring.[/QUOTE]
well the money is made for the stallion owners by winning a WGC class…the money is made by the trainers in boarding and training fees…the owners care only about the breeding fees which is why they will look the other way…
Tamara
[QUOTE=sunridge1;6325781]
He was entered in the World’s Grand Championship a class for BL horses. Watchout was not a BL horse. It’s impossible to get the winning BL gait without the pads ETA and chains.[/QUOTE]
umm actually he was wearing a pad…the smallest possible to skirt the rules to enter the class…
history forgets and/or revises what suits it sometimes
Tamara
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6325771]
Was this not a Big Lick entry then?[/QUOTE]
NO!! Fairfax–The horse Champagne Watchout was entered in a Big Lick padded horse class where the horses wear stacks of pads, heavy shoes, and hoofbands to hold it all together and on their front hooves-- and they wear chains or rollers in the class too. BUT he is NOT a Big Lick horse.
In fact, Watchout was entered in the final class at the Celebration-- the class that determines THE World Grand Champion Walking Horse for that year–1999. THAT is a BL class. A horse had to wear at least one pad to enter but does not have to wear a chain or rollers in the class. I’m guessing the pad rule was clanged to require stacks of pads AFTER CW was shown to aviod THAT happening again.
BUT this horse did NOT wear all of that stuff for that class in 1999-- and if you watch the video you will see he did not really perform the BIG LICK that the padded horses do- he performed a very animated running walk- but it was not the SAME BIG LICK that the other horses were performing- watch the video. He also did not travel with the speed of the other padded and chained horses. You can see the padded BL horses lapping him, if you watch closely.
And Tamara is right- he wore a heavy plantation shoe and one pad because without the pad, he, as other flat shod horses before him, would have been denied entry in the class.
WATCH THE VIDEO please before making any more posts so you will maybe understand what we who KNOW the breed and its history are talking about.
The main point is that many people are like me and believe the BL horse does not represent the TRUE naturally gaited TWH. Some believe it is okay to use heavy shoes and or training devices like chains and even pads in training to 'develop" the gait.
Purists like me beileve this is cheating. We believe the horse’s gaits should be developed using only the shoes and the equipment allowed in the ring and lots of riding-- and these should NOT include anything heavier than store-bought keg shoes- like Midnight Sun, Merry Go Boy and the rest of the pre-soring and pre-action device wearing horses wore in the ring.
The natural running walk of the TWH is supposed to be a bred-in gait that does not require any “special” knowledge or action devices to develop.
Unable to watch video as I am on dial up however I have seen Big Lick and I do understand the difference regarding the extreme exageration and natural plantation.
I do understand he did not wear any of the acruetemonts however I am asking if he was trained using any action devices i.e. stretchies, chains, rollers etc
I do understand your “purist” stance however I do not believe that making ALL devices against the law for all breeds is either going to pass as a law, will be followed if it is a law however it will give "HSUS and other radical groups an opportunity to close down all shows for all horses.
I am all for banning any substance causing soring and pain however it is a slippery slope when you ask for ALL action devices to be banned based on your purist position regarding action.
A horse with poor action can not do the impossible however a talented individual can, with training and resistence tools learn how to perform to their physical best.
You enjoy plantation however if Gilda gets her way you would be forced to use a halter bridle (the type dogs use over the muzzle) and would not be allowed to use a saddle…only a felt pad with a bland cinch (not very safe but can never pinch the stomach).
She too, is a purist. She also does not agree with purebred anything and clearly states it creates elitism and therefore ALL registration bodies should be closed.
She is a purist for “the horse”
Responsible owners and breeders have no complaint regarding your concerns over soring. It is the next slippery slope step you want to take.
Not all of us just want to amble over the country side.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6325964]
Unable to watch video as I am on dial up however I have seen Big Lick and I do understand the difference regarding the extreme exageration and natural plantation.
Not all of us just want to amble over the country side.[/QUOTE]
You would have to ask ChaMpagne Watchout’s owner/ trainer Mr. Nathaniel Jakson, who has posted here asking for us to sign a petition to ban the aforementioned “action devices” or “training tools” if he used any of these in training his horse.
And if you, or anyone else, don’t want to amble over the country side, then go find another horse breed. Do not pervert the gaits of a horse that was BRED for more than 100 years to do just that- amble over the country side doing a naturally bred in- not nailed on running walk that is relatively fast and ground covering, smooth and easy for anyone to ride.
I wouldn’t have any problem using a bitless bridle- a natural walking horse will gait using a halter and a lead rope tied to make reins. I also would not have any problem using a felt pad either as long as I could have stirrups for balance- I am in my 60s and not as spry as I once was.
I would also like to see the severe bits with 8 and 10 inch shanks, gag bits, and bits with bicycle chain mouth pieces or double twisted wire snaffles mouthpieces and overly tight curb chains prohibited in the show ring- too.
When we were showing, the flat shod horses could not be shown with any shanks longer than 8 inches. Judges were supposed to take notice of horses that would gait using shoter-shanked bits like the six and three inche shanks. Gag bits were prohibited in ALL the flat shod classes. Judges were supposed to favor horse with loose curbs over horses with tight ones. NO additional hair pieces could be worn in the tails. Horse whose hocks twisted or wrung excessively were also supposed to be counted down for placement over horses whose hocks did not twist and wring excessively.
NO hoofbands could be worn to hold on the shoes and there was a measurement limit and a weight limit for the shoes- that was way less than what is allowed now for these same flatshod classes. In fact, I believe the “lite shod” shoes are heavier than what was allowed for shoes in the heavier shod plantation classes.
The working of horses anywhere on the show grounds using any action devices for the flat shod horses was strictly prohibited- this included out on the grounds as well as in the practice ring.
IMO, instead of the flat shod people reforming the corrupt Big Lick people as many of us had hoped did not happen jusging form the rules that allow heavier shoes, more severe bits and hoofbands in flat shod classes today. The opposite has happened and the BL supporters have corrupted the flat shod people.
All of the HIOs need to go back to the shoes that were allowed in the lite shod and plantion clases of the mid-1980s and ALL shoes too heavy to stay on by themselves need to be prohibited as well as the use of hoof bands. Absolutely NO pads and no fillers or acrylics should be allowed in the flat shod classes.
The action devices should be prohibited in the show ring for all classes and their use and possession on show grounds should be prohibited as well.
Until the former BL people can get over their withdrawal from the use of chains and etc, pads and hoofbands, the use of no more padding than Saddlebreds use could be allowed for a year or two until they, too are phased out.
All horses should be subjected to inspection for ANY foreign substances on the pasterns- presence of ANY chemical substances of ANY kind should be grounds for arrest and prosecution of both the trainer and the owner under the HPA because there isn’t any good reason for any horse to test positive for mustard oil, salycilic acid, croton oil, anti-freeze, Preparation H, methol, used motor oil, Kopertox, super glue, paint thinner, paint stripper, any numbing agents like what is found in Ambusol for tooth aches, and etc on their front pasterns.
BTW- Do you even HAVE any TWHs? If not, go start your own thread in praise of using action devices on your breed of horse.
[QUOTE=bayou_bengal;6325988]
You would have to ask ChaMpagne Watchout’s owner/ trainer Mr. Nathaniel Jakson, who has posted here asking for us to sign a petition to ban the aforementioned “action devices” or “training tools” if he used any of these in training his horse.
And if you, or anyone else, don’t want to amble over the country side, then go find another horse breed. Do not pervert the gaits of a horse that was BRED for more than 100 years to do just that- amble over the country side doing a naturally bred in- not nailed on running walk that is relatively fast and ground covering, smooth and easy for anyone to ride.
I wouldn’t have any problem using a bitless bridle- a natural walking horse will gait using a halter and a lead rope tied to make reins. I also would not have any problem using a felt pad either as long as I could have stirrups for balance- I am in my 60s and not as spry as I once was.
I would also like to see the severe bits with 8 and 10 inch shanks, gag bits, and bits with bicycle chain mouth pieces or double twisted wire snaffles mouthpieces and overly tight curb chains prohibited in the show ring- too.
When we were showing, the flat shod horses could not be shown with any shanks longer than 8 inches. Judges were supposed to take notice of horses that would gait using shoter-shanked bits like the six and three inche shanks. Gag bits were prohibited in ALL the flat shod classes. Judges were supposed to favor horse with loose curbs over horses with tight ones. NO additional hair pieces could be worn in the tails. Horse whose hocks twisted or wrung excessively were also supposed to be counted down for placement over horses whose hocks did not twist and wring excessively.
NO hoofbands could be worn to hold on the shoes and there was a measurement limit and a weight limit for the shoes- that was way less than what is allowed now for these same flatshod classes. In fact, I believe the “lite shod” shoes are heavier than what was allowed for shoes in the heavier shod plantation classes.
The working of horses anywhere on the show grounds using any action devices for the flat shod horses was strictly prohibited- this included out on the grounds as well as in the practice ring.
IMO, instead of the flat shod people reforming the corrupt Big Lick people as many of us had hoped did not happen jusging form the rules that allow heavier shoes, more severe bits and hoofbands in flat shod classes today. The opposite has happened and the BL supporters have corrupted the flat shod people.
All of the HIOs need to go back to the shoes that were allowed in the lite shod and plantion clases of the mid-1980s and ALL shoes too heavy to stay on by themselves need to be prohibited as well as the use of hoof bands. Absolutely NO pads and no fillers or acrylics should be allowed in the flat shod classes.
The action devices should be prohibited in the show ring for all classes and their use and possession on show grounds should be prohibited as well.
Until the former BL people can get over their withdrawal from the use of chains and etc, pads and hoofbands, the use of no more padding than Saddlebreds use could be allowed for a year or two until they, too are phased out.
All horses should be subjected to inspection for ANY foreign substances on the pasterns- presence of ANY chemical substances of ANY kind should be grounds for arrest and prosecution of both the trainer and the owner under the HPA because there isn’t any good reason for any horse to test positive for mustard oil, salycilic acid, croton oil, anti-freeze, Preparation H, methol, used motor oil, Kopertox, super glue, paint thinner, paint stripper, any numbing agents like what is found in Ambusol for tooth aches, and etc on their front pasterns.
BTW- Do you even HAVE any TWHs? If not, go start your own thread in praise of using action devices on your breed of horse.[/QUOTE]
You were doing ok until your attack on Fairfax in your last sentence. That is a stupid view therefore, not worth anyone’s consideration.
I am sorry you are 60 and not spry. I will be 62 this fall and I am very spry. I would not want saddles, bridles, bits, shoes, or many other riding , harness or using equipment banned because of one breed.
I would ask then that you stipulate that it would ONLY be for TWH breed.
My problem is as follows. I have watched cities start to outlaw horses in parades (bad dodo), removal of horses from beaches and or sides of lakes, removal of horses from Federal parks as they poop grain which is a foreign substance, limit the number of horses (not depending on land size, stall size or availability of hay–two Oregon counties are in the process of trying to do this to run the trainers and academy’s out of town)
It ALL starts with someone trying to do something positive and it gets out of hand. How many of you TRUST YOUR POLITICIANS TO PROTECT YOUR HORSE OWNERSHIP RIGHTS?
I will explain how livestock laws come to be. A group will petition the government, their congressman/governor…and low and behold HSUS OFFER AT NO CHARGE their lawyers (they have 52 full timers) to “assist” in drawing up the legislation. Governments are BROKE. They accept this assistance gladly however the devil is in the details. Before you know it there is legislation regarding seizures as I posted on another thread. You can lose your horses EVEN IF YOU ARE FOUND NOT GUILTY. (Oregon)…and you have to pay for their board.
Consider the fact that the majority of AC officers do not have ANY equine knowledge or training. They are going to interpret the law…with the assistance of HSUS who make sure they have their agents always available.
You want to ban ANY device that YOU do not approve of. Could be right down to bitless bridles and no leather saddles, no buggy or sleighs and the list goes on…You have EVERY RIGHT to protest ABUSE but using horses is not abuse and I do not see why I, and others should be restrained because you are a self appointed purist.
Do what you want to the TWH…but I will challenge you if you try and make legislation that imnpacts other breeds.
My family owned the TWH. I do not believe I must own a TWH in order to recognize abuse both of the horse, and of power.
Why not an inspection tax on every TWH participating in any class with high shoes, big lick etc. It could be $50.00 PER CLASS PER HORSE and each horse would have mandatory inspections They would come out of a class and immediately go into a ring for inspection.
ALL barns and stalls would have to be available to inspection officers at all times and all tack rooms could also be inspected for illegal substances.
That would not be violating property rights as the horses are at a show on property not owned by the trainers. ALL Big Lick classes or competitions held in any state would be subject to those fees and mandatory inspections.
Expulsion and fines for the trainer, rider and owner of up to Ten Thousand Dollars per person per offence would be the penalty. One would have to sign an agreement BEFORE they entered stating that if they are found gulty, all registrations on the horses would be cancelled.
I’m really late in replying to this thread, but… I watched this video this morning and it has haunted me all day. This “Big Lick” gait, looks disgusting!
Those “riders” look like fat slobs, hunched over, hanging on the bit, and loose legs. Artificial everything! No horsemanship going on there! Simply abuse!
I really hope this makes more awareness and brings back the natural TWH gait, which I know nothing about, but after watching the Champagne clips from '99, it actually looks much better!
I was also finding this thread very informative and positive until we stepped onto that slippery slope of “purist” thinking. And it does threaten to undo all of the good trying to be done to fight the real abuse.
Terri
The HPA ACT of 1970 is very breed specific to the sored gaited horse. The petition is to ask for more stringent enforcement of the law already on the books and to give the law some more teeth by aboloshing some of the equipment used by the Big Lick folks to produce that gait. Without the equipment, there is no BL gait.
Fairfax, you mentioned earlier that you had heard there was a horse that can perform BL without the stacked pads. You may have been mistakenly referring to Champagne Watchout or you may have read that someone has a BL horse that can move like that w/o stacks. I also, would like to see video proof that a horse like that exists. It is common for BL folks to say that what they are doing is totally natural and their horse will do it unstacked, at will, at liberty. But i have yet to see visual proof of it. BL is a totally manufactured gait that cannot be done without the equipment.
I am extremely leery of the HSUS. But Jackie McConnell broke a federal law, the HPA ACT of 1970, by showing sored horses. Some people are very concerned about the HSUS involvement. The HSUS didnt get McConnell in trouble, McConnell and his three cohorts broke a federal law and got themselves in trouble. The HSUS footage gave visual proof of the abuse back at a training barn, but McConnell got in trouble when the horses were inspected at a show. They broke the law, a federal law.
I think most everyone here who has bothered to read all the posts (yikes), can see the majority understand that the HSUS is not a group to be trusted, and if they came into the thread not knowing that, perhaps they do now. This information sharing is a good thing.
Again, the petition is to enforce and enhance an existing law that protects sored horses. It is directed at a segment of a breed that is being sored. It is very specific.
If i felt that HSUS was unfairly targeting any breed, whichever it is, i would support efforts to keep things real. But this is NOT about HSUS. This is about a Federal Law, already on the books.
I was introduced to the Big Lick way of going at a Walker show in MD in 1987 or '88. My wife wanted a Walker and we were looking around so we took in a show. My first response was “Whiskey Tango Foxtrot???” That response remains today.
Frank and Fairfax are quite right in pointing out that government solutions to this issue are highly problematical.
The first, big issue is that 52 years of governmental solutions have not solved the problem. That’s the first hint that maybe this is not the most productive route.
The second is that few people here seem to have read and mastered the HPA and the USDA/APHIS Regulations issued pursuant to the HPA. The HPA does NOT outlaw “soring.” It outlaws the transportation, exhibiting, etc. of a horse that has been sored as defined in the HPA.
The third problem is that many demanding “action” have not read the Bill of Rights. In any criminal prosecution the government must prove each and every element of the offense beyond a reasonable doubt. In a civil prosecution the standard is preponderance of the evidence. This is why most prosecutions are for the civil offense of presenting a sored horse, not the criminal offense of presenting a sored horse.
The fourth governmental approach problem is that there have been few, if any, state prosecutions anywhere of people who have sored up a horse. TN has a specific statute that forbids it. Of course here, too, you have the problem of the state carrying its burden of proving the allegations beyond a reasonable doubt.
Another statute requires that show management inform the local district attorney general of citations issued under the HPA. I wonder how often that happens.
The fifth governmental approach problem is money. TN has maintained a balanced budget but there have been some big reductions for many agencies, including law enforcement. Due to cuts at the state crime lab we wait months for the most basic of forensic testing. The Feds are even worse from a financial perspective. So in the The Great Scheme of Criminal Enforcement are we going to spend time and money on prosecution of drug lords, insider traders, murderers, wife beaters, child molesters, etc. Or are we going to try and go after somebody who sores up or beats a horse? That’s a rhetorical question, of course.
There are lots of other reasons to mistrust a governmental solution, but I’ll let others think about them.
The use of action devices of any sort is a sign of incompetent training. They train nothing. Take them off and the effect that they’ve had goes away.
They can alter way of going; so can saddle placement, hoof angles, shoe types, and riding position. If we are going to regulate “action devices” are we going to regulate equitation practices, too? (Another rhetorical question.)
None of this is to suggest that governmental action, taken appropriately, can never be effective. It can be. The very presence of USDA vets will cause the “rats leaving a sinking ship” effect. I have personally observed this at a local show venue. Criminal prosecution under the HPA has been successful for the first time in Chattanooga. The U.S. Attorney is to be commended. But, as noted above, he has a full plate and just how much more he can do is open to question. The TN District Attorney General in the place where the taped actions happened should now be asked some pointed questions.
Consumers can “vote with their feet.” Maybe if Ford starts loosing big numbers of horse folk buying big pickups to Dodge and GM then they will rethink their “it’s a local issue” response. Ditto for any other Celebration advertiser. But remember that there are some deep pockets involved in the breed (including at least one owner of a very prestigious hotel chain; at they were there last time I looked). Economic Sanctions are the darling of the media; they have a very spotty track record.
As long as the crowd pays the gate fee and cheers the Big Lick horse and the breeders will pay big stud fees the problem will continue.
And the solution to the problem lies within the cadre of Walking Horse owners. I’ve had multiple experiences of folks very vocal in their opposition to soring and the Big Lick breed good mares to WGC horses “because they moved so well.” That, of course, is horse puckey. They did it because the foal will bring a bigger price. They ignore the fact that they just put a bunch of money into the system that they claim to abhor so much. When an opportunity and a program for real reform was presented in the mid-90s lots of them “walked away.”
G.
[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;6325812]
umm actually he was wearing a pad…the smallest possible to skirt the rules to enter the class…
history forgets and/or revises what suits it sometimes
Tamara[/QUOTE]
One pad is not what those BL horses wear. He is not a BL horse even with one pad. I fail to understand your point.
Head is spinning. What a David and Goliath scenario. If BL ceased to exist, mare owners would look beyond a WGC title when choosing a stallion. I need to reflect on all this information,Guilherme.
So then what can be done. The only thing I can see as much as I hate to see it is TOUGH regulations.
Define big lick and ban it. Just like they have banned cock fighting and dog fighting.
[QUOTE=sunridge1;6326211]
One pad is not what those BL horses wear. He is not a BL horse even with one pad. I fail to understand your point.[/QUOTE]
if we are to hold him up as a paragon of virtue for flat shod animals we should mention both the pad and the tail set I think…
Tamara
I don’t think he a paragon of virtue. I’m not even sure I like the horse as great representation of the TWH. (His running walk is not pure.) However he’s the only ‘normally’ shod horse in a class full of clowns. Easy to spot the difference.
We need a slogan; how about:
“BIG LICK=WAY TOO SICK!”
[QUOTE=sunridge1;6326230]
I don’t think he a paragon of virtue. I’m not even sure I like the horse as great representation of the TWH. (His running walk is not pure.) However he’s the only ‘normally’ shod horse in a class full of clowns. Easy to spot the difference.[/QUOTE]
again…he could have declined to put the pad and tailset on the horse and taken the higher road…he did not…
if the argument is “just one little pad for one class” how does that marry into “just a few more pads for a few more classes”…?
anyway…I was there in those days. I’m tickled that Jackie McConnell finally got caught.It was funny to hear Winky Groover talk about being a leader in clean showing considering every thing else
and yes as Guilherme says the chance was offered when Keith Dane still owned and showed flat shod horses and was still married to Bea, for some real reforms and the majority of the flat shod people “walked away” and left the rest of the people hanging…
so in that regard they are just about to reap what so many of us did back then…they deserve it.
Tamara
