.
[QUOTE=ThisTooShallPass;6325405]
It is just LEO/fairfax intentionally derailing the thread once again. He needs to start his own Thread about hi favor of appliances.[/QUOTE]
Nope…wrong again
I am concerned that the best intentions i.e. stop ALL cruelty regarding the TW be extended to a point that all “tools” i.e. equipment be abolished.
When Senators, Governors etc become involved in an emotionally packed occurance such as what was presented and the ongoing exploitation of the breed via B.L. they tend to over react and look towards the perceived experts (self proclaimed at best)
That is why I wanted to know how big a problem B.L. is today. Some say hardly any participants and it wouldn’t hurt the breed to see it gone…others say it is huge.
A poster has proven TW CAN BE TRAINED using non abusive corrosive substances to train high action. Since the owner of a horse who was able to perform without pads etc…can that person please tell me if they used ANY training tools i.e. enhancers…chains…rollers…
I believe it is better to have ALL information rather than just hysteria.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6325390]
Pads can extend the life of a show horse (pleasure divisions) and also trail horses. Navicular disease is helped with pads.
I use chains and wood rollers to teach the younger stock to lift and exercise their muscles. It is a helpful tool
and it does not create any weight problems on their backs at a early age.
I abhor cruelty and abuse and can differentiate between the big lick (we imported one in the early 60’s and he had to be put down due to hoof rot caused by chemicals)
If I was to support you and your views that would also mean supporting HSUS and its affiliates who want to remove horses (all, any breed…as Wayne Pacelle states: They are ALL MAN MADE so extinction is to be encouraged) from any use.
While you may enjoy a peaceful ride across the countryside that is often not available to others. Many of use enjoy shows and showing. AND we do not use cruel nor abusive training but we do utilize training equipment.
Sorry…I can not support your attempt to bring down the shows to support your cause to remove cruelty with ONE BREED and ONE DISCIPLINE…Big Lick.
Before many Cother’s jump on the wagon…just think…first it may be chains…then bits…then any type of shoeing…then (one lady is trying to eliminate ALL saddles as they are restrictive and cruel) horse racing, evening, driving, riding…
as I stated…the road to heck is smeared with good intentions.[/QUOTE]
This is JUST plain BULLsh*T! You have shown your ignorance by claiming that the use of chemical soring agents caused your horse to have hoof rot. What causes hoof rot or severe thrush infections in horses that wear pads is the creation of an ideal medium UNDER the pad for the growth of thrush and other fungi that CAUSE the hoof rot-- NOT any soring chemicals-- which are applied to the horse’s pasterns on its forelegs only-- you know the hairy part above the coronet band but below the ankle joint- as opposed to the knee joint on a horse’s forelegs.
The use of “training aids” to teach a horse to raise its legs or exptend its hooves is the use of someting artificial, imo, that changes the gait of the horse. It “trains” the horse to move in a way that is not natural to that horse.
Walking horSEs are supposed to be able to do their gaits naturally, anything “extra” like chains, pads or action devices that changes that gait is CHEATING in my book- I don’t care if it causes pain or not. It is not natural, it is artificial so it is CHEATING.
Don’t try to confuse the subject by trying to claim I support HSUS becasue I am against the use of action devices, pads and etc to alter a horses’s natural gait.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6325425]
Nope…wrong again
A poster has proven TW CAN BE TRAINED using non abusive corrosive substances to train high action. Since the owner of a horse who was able to perform without pads etc…can that person please tell me if they used ANY training tools i.e. enhancers…chains…rollers…
I believe it is better to have ALL information rather than just hysteria.[/QUOTE]
Where is the video proof of your assertion that a TWH can be trained to do the freaky, creaky BL crab crawl BL without the use of ARTIFICIAL means such as weighted shoes- chains, pads and etc. and will the horse continue to do such a gait-- when at liberty?
A trained gait is still NOT the horse’s natural gait. it is a TRAINED gait. The POINT of a walking horse is that it should be able to be ridden by anyone without any “special training” needed for the horse to do its gait. A walking horse should gait naturally under saddle just like a Paso fino or a Peruvian Paso.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6325425]
A poster has proven TW CAN BE TRAINED using non abusive corrosive substances to train high action. Since the owner of a horse who was able to perform without pads etc…can that person please tell me if they used ANY training tools i.e. enhancers…chains…rollers…
I believe it is better to have ALL information rather than just hysteria.[/QUOTE]
I believe education is the key. Educate people not to value something as useless and non-beneficial to the horse as an exaggerated high action and the problem will simply disappear.
there have always been non sored padded horses here…however they have no shot at placing above 5 or 6th in any class at the Celebration (the only show that really matters all year) so many simply understand that placing that high and winning “clean” matter more than being sored and taking it all
but honestly one WGC under your belt and a stallion is pretty much set for life in the breeding shed…which is why it’s done to begin with…to sell the breedings…
Tamara
… to sell the breedings… and reap the benefits of training bills and showing expenses for the offspring.
[QUOTE=ThisTooShallPass;6325405]
It is just LEO/fairfax intentionally derailing the thread once again. He needs to start his own Thread about hi favor of appliances.[/QUOTE]
I believe it is you that is trying to derail the thread with a reference in your prior post that has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
Fairfax brings up an interesting point to consider.
What about sidereins, drop,figure 8, crank,etc nosebands. Blinkers, blinders, earnets. Wedges,half pads,full pads, breakover toes. Two bits in a double bridal. All the many head setting devices.???
Where is the line drawn for “action device” or “padded shoes”?
All the above are artificial training aids and/or performance aids.
And just to make it clear I do NOT condone the practices I saw on those videos. I am just not so sure the petition is specific enough as to what is being “outlawed”.
I am new to COTH and I haven’t read all 360+ posts in this thread, but of those that I have read, I am of the following thoughts.
The TWH soring situation is above and beyond cruelty. It is premeditated, it is mean and it is done solely for some human’s financial support or an owner’s bragging rights. While the same can be said for several other breeds, it is the TWH ‘big lick’ horses that suffer the most and most prevalent in that breed. Come on… 52 out of 52 tested positive!!!
Winning Morgans are subject to having the actual shoes pulled, weighed and hooves/legs checked. Arabians have length and weight limitations also. The Saddlebred has it’s own rules per division. Stock horses and hunter/jumper/dressage have their rules. While some of it is questionable, it is not the blatant cruelty of the magnitude that this TWH big lick training is.
It is the TWH big lick horses who are asked to perform beyond their natural way of going and that is what this particular post is about.
I am sure there are those (PETA) who would love to see no horses ridden or used by mankind, but that will not deter me from helping to see this deplorable TWH situation put to it’s end. It’s been on the books since 1970 (forty-two years for pete’s sake) what is wrong with people.
Pads (necessary for many horses, show and pleasure), shoes, rollers, tie downs, martingales, draw reins, bits, whips, spurs and a zillion other pieces of training equipment are only as kind as the rider/trainer wants to be with using them. These big lick people are NOT KIND.
The TWH industry needs to take a long hard look at what they are doing. The rest of the equine world need to fix their own houses so that the PETA types can’t find fault.
Thank you for your time.
I didn’t read this whole thread. But I’ll say the same thing I said in the other thread. It’s sick. The people who do the abusing are sick, the people who work for the abusers are sick, the people who cheer them on in the ring are sick, the people who go and watch them are sick because it all encourages something that personally gives me chills an I’d love to go into on of those “shows” and get myself arrested for making them pay.
I am no saint but my god, it doesn’t take a horse person to know thats discusting.
[QUOTE=lifesabreeze;6325487]
I believe it is you that is trying to derail the thread with a reference in your prior post that has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
Fairfax brings up an interesting point to consider.
What about sidereins, drop,figure 8, crank,etc nosebands. Blinkers, blinders, earnets. Wedges,half pads,full pads, breakover toes. Two bits in a double bridal. All the many head setting devices.???
Where is the line drawn for “action device” or “padded shoes”?
All the above are artificial training aids and/or performance aids.
And just to make it clear I do NOT condone the practices I saw on those videos. I am just not so sure the petition is specific enough as to what is being “outlawed”.[/QUOTE]
non of what you listed is made and used to deliberately make a horse sore. granted used wrongly it can but they are not specified for that. chemicals, chains, whippings, stack… those are to make the horse uncomfortable. That’s when it draws the line. not that hard to understand
[QUOTE=DreamBignRide;6325502]
non of what you listed is made and used to deliberately make a horse sore. granted used wrongly it can but they are not specified for that. chemicals, chains, whippings, stack… those are to make the horse uncomfortable. That’s when it draws the line. not that hard to understand[/QUOTE]
The petition does not specify as to what devices are to be banned. It only says “action devices” and “padded shoes”. So while I have no problem understanding what is cruel and what is not, I am not so sure the law the petition asks for, is specific enough as to what they want banned.
"Now is the time to once and for all end ALL forms of Abuse, Soring & Associated Corruption within the breed of Tennsess Walking Horses.
By enacting a law banning The Pads & Action Devices, the common practices of Soring will be unnecessary.
Increase the allocated budget of the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Services (APHIS) of the USDA the delegated branch to enforcer of the1970 Horse Protection Act ( HPA) "
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6325425]
A poster has proven TW CAN BE TRAINED using non abusive corrosive substances to train high action. Since the owner of a horse who was able to perform without pads etc…can that person please tell me if they used ANY training tools i.e. enhancers…chains…rollers…
I believe it is better to have ALL information rather than just hysteria.[/QUOTE]
Fairfax- I am still waiting for your “proof” to back up this assertion like the name of the specific horse, its owner, its trainer and a video. Where is it?
ANY BL person worth his or her salt will TELL you that while soring exists-- “MY horse is NEVER sored” or “MY trainer would NEVER do this”- and they will maintain that PoV UNTIL their horses is turned down at the inspection station. AND then they will try to say the DQP or vet was incompetent, too inexperienced or made a mistake.
I personall know the woman in Texas that another poster identified as owning the horse down in the HSUS video. I am not a personal friend. We were merely horse show acqualitences. We showed horses at some of the same shows and we belonged to some of the same associations, went to the same receptions at the shows.
I have heard her- HEARD her with my own two ears, in years past when I was showing-- say more than once that her family’s horses were NEVER sored and that HER trainers didn’t sore horses- Want to guess who is one of her main long-time trainers? They have used him off and on for years and years among other trainers? Well he got arrested and charged with animal abuse and it it has been said it was one of her horses AT HIS BARN DOWN IN ITS STALL and beiong tortured to make it get up.
I bet if she is asked about it, she will say she had “no idea” that kind of thing went on. But before you give her a “pass” read the article, because it will show you they have their own in-house training barn on their Texas farm. HOW COULD THEY NOT KNOW?
That almost that whole family has shown BL walkers for years and years. They were even featured on the cover of The Voice of the Tennessee Walking Horse in 2005- the official TWBEA house organ.http://www.twhbea.com/voice/Features/Sherman.htm
Boy, I would LOVE to hear what she is saying NOW.
.
[QUOTE=bayou_bengal;6325444]
This is JUST plain BULLsh*T! You have shown your ignorance by claiming that the use of chemical soring agents caused your horse to have hoof rot. What causes hoof rot or severe thrush infections in horses that wear pads is the creation of an ideal medium UNDER the pad for the growth of thrush and other fungi that CAUSE the hoof rot-- NOT any soring chemicals-- which are applied to the horse’s pasterns on its forelegs only-- you know the hairy part above the coronet band but below the ankle joint- as opposed to the knee joint on a horse’s forelegs.
The use of “training aids” to teach a horse to raise its legs or exptend its hooves is the use of someting artificial, imo, that changes the gait of the horse. It “trains” the horse to move in a way that is not natural to that horse.
Walking horSEs are supposed to be able to do their gaits naturally, anything “extra” like chains, pads or action devices that changes that gait is CHEATING in my book- I don’t care if it causes pain or not. It is not natural, it is artificial so it is CHEATING.
Don’t try to confuse the subject by trying to claim I support HSUS becasue I am against the use of action devices, pads and etc to alter a horses’s natural gait.[/QUOTE]
I wonder what Ms. Manners would say about your language?
The son of Merry Boy was imported by my Grandfather. All I was ever told was he had been trained as a 'licker" and they “believed” he had chemicals injected into the soft sole of his hooves. What ever the truth was, he did “slough” his hoof and the vet told my Grandfather that was the reason.
I have never been around TWH’s and only rode one once when I received an invitation from an advertiser in our equine publication to come and enjoy the experience. She had plantation style horses.
Sensible use of equipment is not in my view, cheating. A person can develope their “running legs” for marathons by only doing stairs…but it still does not do the job that resistence training with weights can accomplish. I would not call that cheating.
[QUOTE=bayou_bengal;6325607]
Fairfax- I am still waiting for your “proof” to back up this assertion like the name of the specific horse, its owner, its trainer and a video. Where is it?
ANY BL person worth his or her salt will TELL you that while soring exists-- “MY horse is NEVER sored” or “MY trainer would NEVER do this”- and they will maintain that PoV UNTIL their horses is turned down at the inspection station. AND then they will try to say the DQP or vet was incompetent, too inexperienced or made a mistake.
I personall know the woman in Texas that another poster identified as owning the horse down in the HSUS video. I am not a personal friend. We were merely horse show acqualitences. We showed horses at some of the same shows and we belonged to some of the same associations, went to the same receptions at the shows.
I have heard her- HEARD her with my own two ears, in years past when I was showing-- say more than once that her family’s horses were NEVER sored and that HER trainers didn’t sore horses- Want to guess who is one of her main long-time trainers? They have used him off and on for years and years among other trainers? Well he got arrested and charged with animal abuse and it it has been said it was one of her horses AT HIS BARN DOWN IN ITS STALL and beiong tortured to make it get up.
I bet if she is asked about it, she will say she had “no idea” that kind of thing went on. But before you give her a “pass” read the article, because it will show you they have their own in-house training barn on their Texas farm. HOW COULD THEY NOT KNOW?
That almost that whole family has shown BL walkers for years and years. They were even featured on the cover of The Voice of the Tennessee Walking Horse in 2005- the official TWBEA house organ.http://www.twhbea.com/voice/Features/Sherman.htm
Boy, I would LOVE to hear what she is saying NOW.[/QUOTE]
I asked about the horse as he was mentioned here and someone said the Celebration tried to block his entry as he was flat shod. They were commenting about his ailbity to perform. Was that not for the Big Lick entry?
Many have stated there are lines that can be trained for higher action…is that true or false>
I understsand your concern and also your empathy for the horses.
I do not happen to agree with your assessment of training equipment but you did state you consider it to be cheating even if it doesn’t cause any pain.
I just don’t want legislation going on the books that reflects your personal view rather than one that is done to stop crippling abuse. It is not the roller nor the chain that causes the pain. It is the applied “hot mustard” (or whatever the forumla is) that causes the extreme tenderness that is defnitely affected by the chains, bells or rollers.
I will look back a couple of pages and see if I can locate the horse they were talking about. I am sure you would know his name immediately but I am not familar
[QUOTE=JackieBlue;6325219]
Is it just me, or is the TWHBEA saying, “If we don’t perpetuate our ‘tradition’ of horse abuse, our organization and breed won’t survive.”? Do they really think that’s a valid argument? It’s tantamount to the KKK saying, “If we outlaw lynching, our organization won’t survive.” :o If the TWHBEA is nothing more than a horse abuse special interest group, what’s there that’s worth saving? 
[/QUOTE]
At this point I think that’s an excellent analogy; and if there’s any group of people that’s ugly, it’s a bad case of “Failure to Evolve” crossed with Money.
[QUOTE=Babcock;6322799]
I apologize if this was mentioned earlier - but watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dhSP6muJwLk
It is the class tape from the 1999 World TWH Grand Championship at the Celebration (show mentioned on this thread). You can see a “keg-shod” (regular shod) TWH in the ring to compare/contrast to the other horses.
The Jackson Family (who showed their regularly shod horse) had to threaten the show with a lawsuit to let them enter (the horse was otherwise qualified).
Fascinating stuff and when you see them in the ring together it is HARDBREAKING to watch the crazily-shod/trained TWHs - especially at the canter (makes me ill).[/QUOTE]
Was this not a Big Lick entry then?
[QUOTE=Louise;6325230]
Copy and paste, by the way, is the way to go, even if there is a facebook icon right on the petition. That button asks you to share information, and I’m pretty sure it will automatically switch you to the Timeline format, if you’re lucky enough to be one of those who still has the old format, like me (shhhhhh, don’t tell facebook.)[/QUOTE]
Thanks for that, Louise! Signed and shared - via copy/paste! 
He was entered in the World’s Grand Championship a class for BL horses. Watchout was not a BL horse. It’s impossible to get the winning BL gait without the pads ETA and chains.
