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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

Off Course
#461

[QUOTE=lifesabreeze;6326862]
Again I deplore what I have seen of Big Lick horses. And I do want it stopped.

I disagree with the non-specific wording of the proposed law in the petition that is being circulated.

I very much like the idea of funding being applied to shows that they can all have inspectors. I do like the idea of making the participants and show venues pay for those inspections.

I do want exact rules as to how many and/or how tall a stack/pad can be. I do want those rules continuously tweeked until the abusers cannot get around them.

I do want pressure put on those that sponsor or support these abusive practices.

I do not support a broad brush condemnation of all TWH or Saddle Seat horsemen for the abusive practices of some.[/QUOTE]

I think that is what everyone wants. They/we have had 50 years to clean it up. 50 years for them to change on their own volition, 50 years for disgusted people to come forward, to stand up. Brave the intimidation tactics. However if you want to belong or be a part of the cult… I mean club, you keep your mouth shut MYOB or suffer the consequences. Unlike sound horse training, they make doing right thing more difficult. Oh wait…

Believe me when I say, they will go down screaming rather than change.

#462

What if you use a chain or pad for purposes other than action? All kinds of horses wear pads for various reasons and I recall another poster (perhaps in another topic) saying that he used chains in training police horses.

I use chains in teaching my filly to trot. She is double gaited, and racked as much as she trotted when I got her. Trotting is more important to me, and I want her to know the difference and understand the ques. And it’s working.

The claim that a horse will go back to it’s natural way of going as soon as you take the “action” device off is false. When my filly is worked in the chains regularly she trots and has stopped racking even when I don’t use them, aside from a few steps here and there when she is frustrated or excited. Before she started wearing them, she alternated between both trot and amble/rack, and then just cantered because she didn’t know what else to do. It was like she had 8 legs going in all different directions. Once she has a strong confident trot, I will go back to racking if she still shows the inclination to do it. If she loses the inclination, that’s ok with me too. The argument of natural vs. unnatural in the training of horses is just ridiculous to me. I suppose I should just ride her and let her flip flop between gaits whenever she wants?

Caustic chemicals and foreign objects causing painful pressure on the sole are cruel and are meant to cause discomfort to alter the horses way of going–we all acknowledge that. Other artificial aids have a reasonable purpose but can be misused.

Let’s focus on the truly abusive practices and not the non-abusive practices used on abused horses. I feel like the Big Lick folks want to throw other similarly trained (non-soring) breeds under the bus and take them down with them, and the people who are unfamiliar with some training devises are buying into it. :no:

#463

This 1985 expose done by CNN goes into great detail about the methods, caustic agents, soring, chains, pads, etc., used on TW show horses. It also shows the corruption within the industry, including threats of violence made against those trying to enforce the rules against soring and those who have spoken out against it. Very interesting, and this was more than 25 years ago, and it’s still going on…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3UeGJT_WOg

If this link doesn’t work, just go to You Tube and search for 1985 CNN How to Sore a Horse.

You have to wonder if it can ever be stopped.

#464

[QUOTE=lifesabreeze;6326831]
And you do not know how side reins change a horse’s action/stride? You don’t know how various gear applied to a horse’s head can change their stride? Are you a beginner just taking your first couple of lessons?

Or are you just quacking before thinking?[/QUOTE]

They don’t change knee action as in the previous posters definition.

Are you just being obtuse to be nasty???

#465

Even crazier check out this article from Sports Illustrated dated 1960. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1134385/1/index.htm

You know back when most horse shows were considered sport and the stands were full. When/why/how did that change? American Saddlebred’s once graced SI covers.

#466

[QUOTE=sunridge1;6327031]
Even crazier check out this article from Sports Illustrated dated 1960. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1134385/1/index.htm

.[/QUOTE]

So sad that these anaimals have been tortured all of these years, and it still continues.

#467

Good research sunridge ! Unfortunately my eyes have said enough and i will read it tomorrow.

#468

[QUOTE=jetsmom;6327024]
They don’t change knee action as in the previous posters definition.

Are you just being obtuse to be nasty???[/QUOTE]

Well, 'not trying to be argumentative, but side reins can be used to lower head carriage. Lower head carriage typically translates into less knee action.

#469

the TWHBEA can change the rule book at their next board meeting,NO stacks higher than a half inch No chains,YOU must pass the DQPif ya have to pull shoes than put it in the rule book and all horses in riding class winning a first or reserve can show in the WGC class. just change the rule stop the reason for the soring, STOP THE BIG LICK

#470

The point that needs to be made to them in doing so is the simple truth that all this “action” is a “gait” that has no function in the real world. Was the TWH NOT a horse whose original “job” was to be ridden many miles every day, by plantation overseers, itinerant preachers, country doctors, et. al.? That to me says a long, efficient, level, ground-covering stride, dare I even say “daisy-clipping.”

It certainly would NOT get you very far for a horse to be straining its hocks, popping its knees, feathering over its forefeet in this hellish parody of a farrier’s worst “breakover” nightmare, all the while hyperextending its front tendons and pasterns? This “gait” is a recipe for crippling, nothing more; I think the best analogy might be the foot-binding that was eventually outlawed in China!

Time for EVERYONE to INSIST that the TWHBEA either return to the roots of the breed or just plain cease to exist. Perhaps a “reboot” with a new breed organization is what it takes.
Hey, they’re already bitching about how they’ve had to downsize; let’s take it to the next level! This is INSANE.

#471

Reading the differences in opinion as to what constitutes an action device from COTH equine authorities, can you imagine the hay day the government is going to have with HSUS as their advisors.

Rather than trying to determine what is a device, they may just go to the extreme route and start banning everything that has an appearance or could ever be used in an abusive manner.

This is my concern.

#472

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6326575]
What was the reason given for the mare not rising. I received a phone call from a person who told me a sore (d) horse would NOT lie down and be looking at its flank.

They wondered if there was another reason such as the start of colic or could the horse have received a mild sedative?

These are questions to which I have no response. Does anyone on COTH have first hand information?

It is a long weekend so my professor of veterinary medicine is not available for a call from me until Tuesday[/QUOTE]

Again WRONG information being passed along, this time second hand- Fairfax- by someone who does not own a TWH-- you.

FYI- A sored walker will indeed lie down if in enough pain. As for looking at her flank- she could have been simply raising her head to look backward at the men tryng to force her to her feet.

And, believe it or not, a walker that has been overly sored will sometines colic as a result-- there is even a name fo the condition among the BL trainers-- “chemical colic.” The high incidence of colic is one of the rasons why mortality insurance forTWH show horses has such high premiums.

#473

[QUOTE=hundredacres;6326682]
For those of us who don’t use any of those methods in other disciplines…bring it on. No guilt = no fear.[/QUOTE]

<LIKE> That’s 100% right—love how Farifax is so concerned about losing his/ her “training devices.”

It’s the use of “action devices” and “training devices” that got the TWH people started on the original path to Perdition anyway.

And FYI- Fairfax- the HPA of 1970 has only been applied to TWH and their offshoot breed the Spotted Saddle Horse. And all of that is really moot-becasue the plain old baseball bat beating McConnell gave those horses qualifires as “animal cruelty” under almost any state law in the nation. It was the “gratitous and intentional infliction of pain” to an animal-- The beatings are directly connected to the soring issue because if they didn’t sore, they would not have to “steward” to teach their horses not to react at the show inspections.

And I see nothing wrong with being a purist when you are dealing with a horse breed whose gait is supposed to be a NATURAL result of selective BREEDING, not use of hoof angles, action devices, pads, heavy shoes, calks and etc. WITH or WITHOUT the addition of the chemical soring. The Peruvians show barefoot. They have their problem, but it is probably a genetic one. There are several other gaited breeds that show without any “action devices” or pads and they do just fine.

I am another person who has “walked away” from the TWHBEA. I currently own three TWHs that have registration papers or had them at one time, and I didn’t bother to transfer the papers on ANY of them into my name because I did not want to send money to the TWHBEA as long as it supports the BL TWH.

One is a daughter of WGC The Pusher, and two are grandsons of WGC Pride of Midnight and WGC Sun’s Delight D. One is a half brother to Double Delight of Pride (same dam) and the other has the same sire as Double Delight of Pride, who was exported to Germany and stands at stud there.

All that needs to happen, as one other poster posted earlier is that the TWNBEA needs to say that people caught soring will have membership and ability to register and transfer horses stripped from them. And the various HIOs need to change their rules to prohibit the use of action devices, pads, heavy shoes, rollers, and hoobands in the ring or on the show grounds.

You will probly NEVER be able to stop those who rely of such things from using them at home in their own barns on their own property-- but you can keep them off the show grounds and OUT of the ring. And you don’t NEED a Federal or even a state law to do it eather— so you see Fairfax-- you can relax now – if the TWHBEA and the HIOs do what is right.

#474

[QUOTE=JackieBlue;6327116]
Well, 'not trying to be argumentative, but side reins can be used to lower head carriage. Lower head carriage typically translates into less knee action.[/QUOTE]

But so can just asking for bend, and using leg. And people generally longe in sidereins more for safety than trying to change knee action. Which can’t be said for the TWH stacked pads, chains, etc.

They should just eliminate Big Lick, ban chains on the showgrounds, and limit pad heights to 1" or something. Any sored horse is eliminated from the class, and owner/trainer banned for a year for first offence, permanantly for the 2nd.

#475

This is the first in the step…of that slippery slope. Note it is NOT breed specific

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/hp/hp_listening_sessions.shtml

Horse Protection Program Listening Sessions The Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service’s

The Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service’s (APHIS) Animal Care Program will hold listening sessions throughout the United States to obtain public feedback on the Horse Protection Program. In particular, APHIS is interested in hearing feedback on the questions below:

•Congress passed the Horse Protection Act in 1970 to eliminate the cruel and inhumane practice of soring horses. How close are we to achieving the goal?

•Can the industry achieve a consensus on how to carry out a self-regulatory program to enforce the Horse Protection Act in a consistent way?

•What responsibilities should USDA-certified Horse Industry Organizations (HIOs) have within the industry?

•How can the industry reconcile its inherent competition aspect with ensuring compliance with the Horse Protection Act?

•What can USDA do now (and in the future) to ensure compliance?

•What responsibilities should USDA have within the industry with respect to enforcement and what hinders oversight of the HIOs and/or industry?

•Should there be a prohibition of all action devices?

•Should there be a prohibition of pads?

•Currently the Horse Protection regulations have a shoe weight limit on yearlings. Should there now be a shoe weight limit for all aged horses?

According to the HSUS rep they are hoping that THE INDUSTRY will have bans put in place not only on show grounds BUT ALSO ON PRIVATE PROPERTY

AGAIN;;; I am AGAINST SORING however I am also AGAINST TRAMPLING OF PROPERTY RIGHTS…the logical step would be that they HSUS OR an affiliate could enter your property at any time to inspect your horses.

In Oregon, if horses are seized the animal control officers or HSUS reps can enter YOUR HOME WITHOUT A WARRANT looking for any information regarding the horses they seized…that includes pictures, photo albums, accounting receipts, computers…AGAIN>> WITHOUT A WARRANT.

This is what scares the heck out of people…

My HSUS contact tells me “they” are expecting this to be a million dollar donation bonanza AND they will NOT have to spend any money…their Congressman from Oregon has stated the TWH BL needs to be investigated AT TAX PAYERS EXPENSE.

This is what HSUS wants…then people who are fighting to keep their homes…get food on the table…will start programs to outlaw horses …why should tax payers pay for the recreation of the idle rich.

THIS IS WHY asking for bans without specifics is very important.

The one “mature” poster stated she wanted them all banned whether they are abusive or not…that is ALL devices…that could be draw reins according to some

#476

[QUOTE=bayou_bengal;6327265]
Again WRONG information being passed along, this time second hand- Fairfax- by someone who does not own a TWH-- you.

FYI- A sored walker will indeed lie down if in enough pain. As for looking at her flank- she could have been simply raising her head to look backward at the men tryng to force her to her feet.

And, believe it or not, a walker that has been overly sored will sometines colic as a result-- there is even a name fo the condition among the BL trainers-- “chemical colic.” The high incidence of colic is one of the rasons why mortality insurance forTWH show horses has such high premiums.[/QUOTE]

You sure are a challenge to remain pleasant to. I do wish you could or would make an effort to read my posts. I WAS ASKING for information regarding the mare lying down. I was told it could be colic (this was confirmed by another poster that it could be from toxic substances) OR they lay down to relieve the pain.

Please get off your high horse about not owning a TWH. I own horses. THAT should be enough OR do you require proof of TWH ownership to sign the petition? After a long time within the Arabian Horse breed (racing and halter and performance) I acquired American Saddlebreds about ten years ago. I have about 15 or so. I would say I do have a vested interest in any discussion where banning is discussed.

#477

I am NOT against banning the use of chains etc IN THE SHOW RING and ON THE GROUNDS…at the same time I have stated numerous times that ANY substance found by inspection agents to be related to soring should result in expulsion from the grounds and severe fines for owners, trainers, handlers etc.

The devil is in the details.

Ask anyone who breeds and shows dogs ( I do ) …they will tell you how out of line many town, city, county state and federal laws started out with GREAT INTENTIONS and now are used AGAINST dog owners and breeders.

Bayou…I am sorry you withdrew from your registration body. As imperfect as it is, you are denied a voice (even if you feel it is not listened to) if you have not paid your membership. That also goes with registrations. Should something happen to you…your GRADE horses would surely go to slaughter…even stating in a will what you want done is not always a guaranty.

#478

Blue type contains my answers within the quote.

#479

[QUOTE=lifesabreeze;6326849]
I believe you stated that you do Dressage? I do not see horses doing Dressage moves naturally out in the field. :wink:

I believe those in the Saddle Seat world that state they can use some devices just for teaching without any abuse. Just as I believe those in H/J and Dressage can use their various training devices without abuse.[/QUOTE]

Not to side track this thread but horses do perform dressage moves out in the field all the time. Classical dressage sought to allow the horse to move as at liberty with a rider. IMHO it’s morfing into man’s idea of what it should look like (and indeed looking more like saddle seat every year-along with the severe training methods). Big Lick has abuses built right into the discipline. As I’ve asked before “how can anyone find it beautiful??!!”

Maybe if these old men learned to actually ride…

#480

[QUOTE=CFFarm;6327407]

[QUOTE=lifesabreeze;6326849]I believe you stated that you do Dressage? I do not see horses doing Dressage moves naturally out in the field. :wink:

I believe those in the Saddle Seat world that state they can use some devices just for teaching without any abuse. Just as I believe those in H/J and Dressage can use their various training devices without abuse.[/QUOTE]

.[/QUOTE] to side track this thread but horses do perform dressage moves out in the field all the time. Classical dressage sought to allow the horse to move as at liberty with a rider. IMHO it’s morfing into man’s idea of what it should look like (and indeed looking more like saddle seat every year-along with the severe training methods). Big Lick has abuses built right into the discipline. As I’ve asked before “how can anyone find it beautiful??!!”

Maybe if these old men learned to actually ride…[/QUOTE]

I believe you stated you were a beginner at Dressage? Perhaps you need to go watch a few classes and then come back here and state how those horses are all moving “naturally”. :slight_smile: Then you can go over to the Dressage board and tell them not to use any pads or action devices on their horses. Ask them to sign a petition for a law to ban their training aides. Without any specifics as to which aides and what type of pads.

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