Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[IdahoRider]

Once again COTH is on the receiving end of a call to arms involving a very small forum made up of people that have been banned from numerous other forums (and those that chose to follow the banned as a show of support).

[I]SPREAD THE WORD ! ! ! !

Postby An American Breeder » Mon May 21, 2012 5:33 am
Leo has been busy defending the rights of all of us to have horses. Think of the millions this will bring HSUS and in the process eliminate your right to ride! ! ! ! While aimed at the BL (Big Lick) crowd this, if enacted, will have terrible consequences for all of us. AND where was the notice, which group, which association was spreading the word to all of us? Have any of you heard about this??? And why was there no action taken by every horse association to the public?
[/I]

For some reason these people are obsessed with COTH (believing that COTH was instrumental in getting Leo/Fairfax banned on ABN). Any time Leo involves himself with a thread here, the call for support goes out and Leo’s lovely “internet investigators” show up to defend whatever position he has taken. With the exception of one or two, they are all spillovers responding to the the above pasted post.

If you feel strongly that something needs to change regarding the TWHBEA and it’s lack of interest in “policing itself”, then ignore Fairfax and resist being drawn into the semantic pissing contests that he enjoys so much. It would be a shame to get this thread closed, because there is good, relevant information being shared.
Sheilah

[bayou_bengal]

[QUOTE=carolprudm;6328279]
Couldn’t find it with Google but weren’t some people opposed to soring murdered a few years ago?[/QUOTE]

One man, who was trying to end the soring by “taking over” the TWHBEA from within by getting anti-soring people elected to its board of directors in a board of directors election in the 1970s, was found murdered at his middle Tennessee farm. The election that year became a ''proxy fight" with the anti-soring side and the “status quo” side battling to gather the most proxies form members to use in casting votes for members of their 'tickets." Much of the voting is done by proxy because many members did not travel to Lewisburg to personally cast their votes.

The incident was mentioned in Echo of Hoofbeats by Dr. Bob Womack. This along with Biograohy of the Tennnessee Walking Horse by a man named Ben Greene are considered the most complete “histories” of the breed to date. Greene’s book was published before Womacks- Womack’s has been re-preinted in a second edition that has more photos than the first.

I believe both editions mention the murder. It is unsolved and the actual motive has not been discovered either. Some think it was a robbery or burglary attempt gone wrong. Some people think it is related to the soring controversy. And there some who think it was related to the man’s other non-horse-relaed business interests, and may have even been a “hit” ordered by the “Dixie Maffia.”

[Fairfax]

[QUOTE=jetsmom;6328472]
Can you show national laws that back up your points? I googled them, and couldn’t find anything. Nothing banning chicken factories, breeding dogs, dog parks…

Regulating puppy mills is necessary, and doesn’t mean that pet ownership is going to end…[/QUOTE]

Go to the HSUS website and they will direct you to their successful work regarding the egg factories and their work to have them reduce numbers and increase “roaming” areas which does stop the production of eggs.

Go the any SPCA, HSUS and local H.S. society and their for their rules. These are not national laws…as I mentioned COUNTIES< SMALL TOWNS<CITIES…they all differ

I see you did not dispute the lack of hog farming in Florida…easily found on google and also the work against puppy millers which now has a profound effect on good dog breeders…again … rules and regulations vary from county to town to city

My point is…they start with something good…appear to be trying to make it better…however they have their agenda which is to remove ALL animals from the control and manipulation of terrible humans…

Outlaw soring. Charge inspection fees…I was told that the horse will be sored…then a topical substance put on to block the soring for the inspection (or beat the horse so he fears flinching from inspection) – both confirmed on this thread…then the topical wears off and the horse performs in pain.

Change the rules for showing Big Lick…Two inspections then…1/2 hour apart and the horses are kept in a controlled area. Charge for each inspection…

Governments have proven people quit smoking when the price is too high. Of course there are those who purchase from smugglers OR just continue smoking and doing without but the numbers are reduced big time.

Make the price of entry and the penalty too high for offenders and it will soon lose its cache.

And…thank you Bayou…I do appreciate your wealth of knowledge and your point of view. We only differ on semantics…you want an outright ban and I want a restricted ban.

If it is any consulation I also annoy myself; regularly. I thank you for your tolerance.

[Angela_Freda]

Um, is this the same Fairfax that defended Marsha Parkinson of the starved MD Arabs, and maligning the rescues involved in helping those horses, accusing them of grabbing ‘valuable bloodlined’ horses and padding their pockets with donated cash… which later the organization Fairfax is involved with, ARM, who collects via ‘rescue’ and breeds specific bloodlines of Arabs and was slapped on the wrist by the NJ Att’y General for co-mingling personal and donated organization funds?
If this is the same Fairfax who looked at the neglect at Parkinsons Farm and claimed it was all fabricated… I, for one, and not going to give his/her opinion on this topic or others concerning equine abuse/neglect much credence.

There is a petition online to contact Ford and ask them to stop sponsorship of this show. I’ll see if I can find the link.

[Fairfax]

[QUOTE=IdahoRider;6328516]
Once again COTH is on the receiving end of a call to arms involving a very small forum made up of people that have been banned from numerous other forums (and those that chose to follow the banned as a show of support).

[I]SPREAD THE WORD ! ! ! !

Postby An American Breeder » Mon May 21, 2012 5:33 am
Leo has been busy defending the rights of all of us to have horses. Think of the millions this will bring HSUS and in the process eliminate your right to ride! ! ! ! While aimed at the BL (Big Lick) crowd this, if enacted, will have terrible consequences for all of us. AND where was the notice, which group, which association was spreading the word to all of us? Have any of you heard about this??? And why was there no action taken by every horse association to the public?
[/I]

For some reason these people are obsessed with COTH (believing that COTH was instrumental in getting Leo/Fairfax banned on ABN). Any time Leo involves himself with a thread here, the call for support goes out and Leo’s lovely “internet investigators” show up to defend whatever position he has taken. With the exception of one or two, they are all spillovers responding to the the above pasted post.

If you feel strongly that something needs to change regarding the TWHBEA and it’s lack of interest in “policing itself”, then ignore Fairfax and resist being drawn into the semantic pissing contests that he enjoys so much. It would be a shame to get this thread closed, because there is good, relevant information being shared.
Sheilah[/QUOTE]

Isn’t it a shame that adults are unable to debate without attack from those like Sheilah. Everything is personal to them.

I really don’t know the players on this forum thread…

Sheila continues to try and change the focus of any thread I am on by going onto a personal attack and then accusing me of trying to change the forum and then quietly asks the moderators to ban me.

For those who don’t know me…yuppers…banned from Black Horse for actually supporting Tom Neese with his comments about a Rammard product the manufacture stated was undetectable and when Tom and I asked why, if it was legal, it was undetectable, Tom Zaffer, who owned the forum, banned Tom Neese and told me if I said one more word… I would be banned so of course I had to post that I still agreed with Tom Neese about the product and I was banned.

From Abn…the only other one…I did, unwisely, quote from a broadway play a line from Priscilla, Queen of the Desert and directed it towards a poster. Of course I was banned by Ambar, who was friends with the woman who was attacking Arabian Horse owners as stupid.

Sorry to take the thread off topic but Sheila brings this up on ANY THREAD I post on…be it COTH or elsewhere.

Now that wasn’t so bad was it Sheila. You did derail the thread temporarily but I am sure we adults can redirect it back

[luvmytbs]

@Fairfax;6328430

Cock fighting, rightly so is illegal.

While it may be illegal, areas close to me in KY and IN are still having cock fights on a regular basis.
And down in Shepherdsville I pass by a farm which has a bunch of little blue huts with cocks on top them in a fenced in area.
Someone in the enforcement department is apparently not doing their job.

@Fairfax;6328430

HSUS has influenced counties, towns and cities as to eliminating free run dog parks

My county must have not received the message, LOL. They just opened another free run dog park for its citizens not too long ago.

You are really attributing way too much power to those organizations.

I can tell you that the KY AG Dept is more dangerous with their adoption of policies that are mostly NOT animal friendly, than all of HSUS, PETA etc. combined on the opposite of the spectrum.

[Fairfax]

[QUOTE=Angela Freda;6328529]
Um, is this the same Fairfax that defended Marsha Parkinson of the starved MD Arabs, and maligning the rescues involved in helping those horses, accusing them of grabbing ‘valuable bloodlined’ horses and padding their pockets with donated cash… which later the organization Fairfax is involved with, ARM, who collects via ‘rescue’ and breeds specific bloodlines of Arabs and was slapped on the wrist by the NJ Att’y General for co-mingling personal and donated organization funds?
If this is the same Fairfax who looked at the neglect at Parkinsons Farm and claimed it was all fabricated… I, for one, and not going to give his/her opinion on this topic or others concerning equine abuse/neglect much credence.

There is a petition online to contact Ford and ask them to stop sponsorship of this show. I’ll see if I can find the link.[/QUOTE]

Yes Freda. I am the same person. However no comment on this thread about that case as you, like Sheila, are joined at the hip and truly do try and make the threads irrelevant by taking them truly “off course”

[jetsmom]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6328522]
Go to the HSUS website and they will direct you to their successful work regarding the egg factories and their work to have them reduce numbers and increase “roaming” areas which does stop the production of eggs.

Go the any SPCA, HSUS and local H.S. society and their for their rules. These are not national laws…as I mentioned COUNTIES< SMALL TOWNS<CITIES…they all differ

I see you did not dispute the lack of hog farming in Florida…easily found on google and also the work against puppy millers which now has a profound effect on good dog breeders…again … rules and regulations vary from county to town to city

My point is…they start with something good…appear to be trying to make it better…however they have their agenda which is to remove ALL animals from the control and manipulation of terrible humans…

Outlaw soring. Charge inspection fees…I was told that the horse will be sored…then a topical substance put on to block the soring for the inspection (or beat the horse so he fears flinching from inspection) – both confirmed on this thread…then the topical wears off and the horse performs in pain.

Change the rules for showing Big Lick…Two inspections then…1/2 hour apart and the horses are kept in a controlled area. Charge for each inspection…

Governments have proven people quit smoking when the price is too high. Of course there are those who purchase from smugglers OR just continue smoking and doing without but the numbers are reduced big time.

Make the price of entry and the penalty too high for offenders and it will soon lose its cache.

And…thank you Bayou…I do appreciate your wealth of knowledge and your point of view. We only differ on semantics…you want an outright ban and I want a restricted ban.

If it is any consulation I also annoy myself; regularly. I thank you for your tolerance.[/QUOTE]

The egg product inspect act amend has not yet passed, as far as I can tell. The bill was jointly authored by the United Egg Producers and HSUS. So this wasn’t a one sided deal done by the HSUS. 87% of egg producers are members of the UEP.

Battery cages have been banned in the UK for a while, with no negative effect.

Enacting animal welfare laws doesn’t mean losing our animals.

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6328555]
Yes Freda. I am the same person. However no comment on this thread about that case as you, like Sheila, are joined at the hip and truly do try and make the threads irrelevant by taking them truly “off course”[/QUOTE]
How interesting that you would choose to call me ‘Freda’ like that other, new poster. Friends? One and the same? Transparent? YES.

Anyway, the relevance is that your are the polar opposite of a ‘RaRa’. Is that an ArAr? I dunno, but you think that any animal welfare agency is the great green bogey man and I think it’s important for those who don’t know your agenda get enlightened so they don’t waste too much time on trying to educate ya’

[Fairfax]

[QUOTE=luvmytbs;6328551]
While it may be illegal, areas close to me in KY and IN are still having cock fights on a regular basis.
And down in Shepherdsville I pass by a farm which has a bunch of little blue huts with cocks on top them in a fenced in area.
Someone in the enforcement department is apparently not doing their job.

My county must have not received the message, LOL. They just opened another free run dog park for its citizens not too long ago.

You are really attributing way too much power to those organizations.

I can tell you that the KY AG Dept is more dangerous with their adoption of policies that are mostly NOT animal friendly, than all of HSUS, PETA etc. combined on the opposite of the spectrum.[/QUOTE]

We are not especially ‘interested in’ animals. Neither of us had ever been inordinately fond of dogs, cats, or horses in the way that many people are. We didn’t ‘love’ animals."
– Peter Singer*, Animal Liberation: A New Ethic for Our Treatment of Animals, 2nd ed. (New York Review of Books, 1990), Preface, p. ii.

"We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding. … One generation and out. We have no problem with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding."– Wayne Pacelle, Senior Vice-President oF HSUS, formerly of Friends for Animals; Quoted in Animal People, May, 1993

“It is time we demand an end to the misguided and abusive concept of animal ownership. The first step on this long, but just, road would be ending the concept of pet ownership.”
– Elliot Katz, President, In Defense of Animals, “In Defense of Animals,” Spring 1997

“The cat, like the dog and the horse, must disappear… We should cut the domestic cat free from our dominance by neutering, neutering, and more neutering, until our pathetic version of the cat ceases to exist.”
-John Bryant, Fettered Kingdoms: An Examination of a Changing Ethic, PETA 1982, p.15.

“I think the whole concept of private property as an ultimate good has got to be replaced. There’s a higher good out there than private property.”
– David Foreman, Co-Founder and Leader, Earth First! (Animal Rights Reporter, June, 1989)

THIS is why I am concerned about terminology and the exactness of law.

I predict this soring issue will become a huge fund raiser for these group who will advocate for the closure of shows and breeding of horses. They work slowly, one step at a time

[bayou_bengal]

Now is the time to really presssure the TWHBEA to finally prohibit the use of all the pads or stacks or packages as well as the heavy shoes, hoofbands and chains on the showgrounds and in the rings. Don’t get side tracked.

If he TWHBEA and the CELEBRATION people see support for the Big Licks are costing them enough sponsors, members and MONEY-- they will grow a conscience and ban the pads, chains and the rest.

Without all of that artificial stuff, there would be no need for soring. Without soring, there would be no need to beat a horse nearly sensless to teach it not to move when being inspected at the shows.

If you want to end the beating and the shocking, you have to end the soring.

If you want to end the soring, you have to prohibit the use of the padded packages, hoofbands and action devices ON the show grounds and IN the ring.

It is THAT simple…

[bayou_bengal]

It does not matter that the HSUS happened to expose McConnell-- and by extension-- other BL trainers with its “smoking gun” video.

What matters is that these Big Lick TWH trainers beat and sore and torture HORSES. They have been doing this for DECADES- despite the passage of the 1970 HPA.

How can ANYONE fail to respond to the pain and fear those horses showed at that man’s hands?

Finally, this video has shocked and disgusted enough people that we can overcome the hegmony that BIG MONEY has held to keep the TWH hostage to the BIG LICK supporters.

DO NOT get sidetracted by FARIFAX and friends. Keep your eyes on the welfare of the horses.

[Dispatcher]

@bayou_bengal;6328202

To have any effect on Celebration sponsorship you have got go after the sponsors with a NATIONAL base. Notice how Ford was very quick to “distance” itself by caliming that IT didn’t sponsor The Celebration but AREA DEALERS did. Almost ALL of the people in the article who are staying on as sponsors are LOCAL or REGIONAL sponsors with farm-related or Celebration or horse show-related businesses.

Of course they are going to toe the party line. They don’t want to lose the business that these Big Lick trainers and exhibitors give them. If you haven’t been to Middle Tennessee, you really can’t imagine the influence the Big Lick part of the TWHBEA has on that area. There are ton and tons of showplace breeding and show farms-- many owned by out-of-state BL supporters who use these as tax-write-offs. They don’t LIVE there- they only come there for the 11 or so days around The Celebration. But they provides lots of jobs for locals who are care-takers, farm managers, workers, grooms and trainers.

Many of the BL trainers have 20 or more horses in training at any time-- some like the McConnells have even more. Some of those BL trainers have as many as 50 or 60 horses in the barn for training or breeding at any time. Think of the money that pumps into that rural agricultural area. Their only other BIG industry was the Saturn plant at Spring Hill, but I believe that plant is now closed down. Really, other than the Big Lick training and breeding 'industry" what other industry does Shelbyville and Lewisburg have.

Of course the trainers are opposed to losing the use of the pads and chains and all the rest-- Any competent horse person can “train” a flatshod walking horse if they know ANYTHING about gaited hroes and can read or watch a video.

And don’t think the farriers who serve the BLs will be happy-- they can charge WAY more for those stacks and pads than for simply shoeing a horse with a keg shoe-- or even a handmade plantation shoe.

They can still have all of that. They don’t have to stop training horses, they need to stop cheating and abusing horses.

Stop the soring. Then continue to train horses . If the whole town loves these horses & depends on them so much, they will adjust.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=fburton;6328019]
You’re joking, surely?! :([/QUOTE]

No joke.

And don’t call her “Shirley.”

Many soring chemicals have legitimate uses. We’re not talking about C4, here. Crotan Oil is a commonly used cattle emetic. Go-Jo is a great hand cleaner after you’ve been working on greasy tractor parts. There are a number of “wound freeze” products on the market for vet. use. I won’t go down the whole list but most of what’s used to sore up a horse or get it through inspection has other, legitimate uses. That’s why a straight-up ban won’t work. People who have a legitimate need will object.

G.

[IdahoRider]

The area to focus on is the money. If it stops being lucrative, they’ll stop doing it. Target the sponsors, both big and small. Little Mom and Pop businesses worried they’ll lose their BL customers? Let all the OTHER customers start to speak up and take their dollars away, and see how quickly the local businesses come to Jesus.

What relationship does Ford corporate have with their dealerships? Could that be an area where pressure could be applied?
Sheilah

[WalkInTheWoods]

[QUOTE=luvmytbs;6328551]
While it may be illegal, areas close to me in KY and IN are still having cock fights on a regular basis.
And down in Shepherdsville I pass by a farm which has a bunch of little blue huts with cocks on top them in a fenced in area.
Someone in the enforcement department is apparently not doing their job.

My county must have not received the message, LOL. They just opened another free run dog park for its citizens not too long ago.

You are really attributing way too much power to those organizations.

I can tell you that the KY AG Dept is more dangerous with their adoption of policies that are mostly NOT animal friendly, than all of HSUS, PETA etc. combined on the opposite of the spectrum.[/QUOTE]

I see the same blue hut things in KY about an hour east of Lexington. Was kind of shocked that they are in plain view like that. And there is no shortage of dog parks in Michigan.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=lifesabreeze;6328037]
Coth has off-topic days for discussions of religion. But since you brought it up, Why do Muslims,Jews and Christians kill each other if they all worship the same god?

“There are no atheist or agnostics in a foxhole” There are many atheists and agnostics in our armed services. That was quite insulting to them to state that they do not exist.[/QUOTE]

FLAG THROWN!!!

15 yard penalty and loss of down for irrelevancy.

Take this to the Off Topic day next time it opens.

G.

[Luseride]

[QUOTE=hundredacres;6326463]
I don’t think the TWHA realizes the untapped potential that awaits them if they move into the Brave New World of the natural animal. If they’d ban stacks and BL, I’d look at owning TWH’s in a new light. They think their money is in the BL? I believe they’re sorely wrong…I think their money would be in the many people like me who would only support a registry that puts the natural gifts of the breed first. They need to fire every single judge and trainer who partakes in barbarianism and look forward in a new way. It’s a versatile horse from what I read…why not promote the hell out of the diversity and close the book on the past.[/QUOTE]

When we showed Lite-shot Plantation a show secretary was accepting my check and saying to another that she did not know why they bothered with the Plantation classes, the money was in performance.

I doubt it has changed in the fifteen years we have been out of Walkers. Her statement was the final straw for us.

[War_Admiral]

Looks like he copped a guilty plea to ONE COUNT OF TRANSPORTING. :mad::mad::mad:

If the judge accepts the plea agreement, that’s it… :sigh:

[IdahoRider]

[QUOTE=War Admiral;6328720]
Looks like he copped a guilty plea to ONE COUNT OF TRANSPORTING. :mad::mad::mad:

If the judge accepts the plea agreement, that’s it… :sigh:[/QUOTE]
Start contacting the court. Make sure that the judge knows there is vast support that he impose the maximum. This isn’t a case of an isolated incident. This guy has been involved in the very worst part of the horse industry for decades.
Sheilah