If the original video isn’t enough to get the horse lovers ( and I know the majority love their horses) in the TWBEA really mad? Look what these old men do to these babies. Someone education them to the fact that a 2 year old is not a mare yet.
I know I’ve posted this in the past, but it makes me sick whenever I think of it.
To have any effect on Celebration sponsorship you have got go after the sponsors with a NATIONAL base. Notice how Ford was very quick to “distance” itself by caliming that IT didn’t sponsor The Celebration but AREA DEALERS did. Almost ALL of the people in the article who are staying on as sponsors are LOCAL or REGIONAL sponsors with farm-related or Celebration or horse show-related businesses.
Of course they are going to toe the party line. They don’t want to lose the business that these Big Lick trainers and exhibitors give them. If you haven’t been to Middle Tennessee, you really can’t imagine the influence the Big Lick part of the TWHBEA has on that area. There are ton and tons of showplace breeding and show farms-- many owned by out-of-state BL supporters who use these as tax-write-offs. They don’t LIVE there- they only come there for the 11 or so days around The Celebration. But they provides lots of jobs for locals who are care-takers, farm managers, workers, grooms and trainers.
Many of the BL trainers have 20 or more horses in training at any time-- some like the McConnells have even more. Some of those BL trainers have as many as 50 or 60 horses in the barn for training or breeding at any time. Think of the money that pumps into that rural agricultural area. Their only other BIG industry was the Saturn plant at Spring Hill, but I believe that plant is now closed down. Really, other than the Big Lick training and breeding 'industry" what other industry does Shelbyville and Lewisburg have.
Of course the trainers are opposed to losing the use of the pads and chains and all the rest-- Any competent horse person can “train” a flatshod walking horse if they know ANYTHING about gaited hroes and can read or watch a video.
And don’t think the farriers who serve the BLs will be happy-- they can charge WAY more for those stacks and pads than for simply shoeing a horse with a keg shoe-- or even a handmade plantation shoe.
[QUOTE=bayou_bengal;6327874]
TRUE—SO TRUE!!! In the 1970s, an older TWH owner (in her 60s then) told me her trainer learned the “trick” of “gingering” a horse’s tail to make him hold it higher in the ring from an ASB trainer.
For those not “in the know”-- in the “old days” before tail sets, caps and all that jazz-- for some reason a high held tail while gaiting became “fashionable” for ASBs as well as TWHs. But not all horses held their tails “up” naturally
Some of the old time trainers would chew a little ginger root up and then stick it where the “sun don’t shine” in their horses’ butts to get that high-tailed look in the ring. Some of the ASB trainers were imitated by some of the TWH trainers-- in doing this.
I have also been told by that lady and others, that the practice of using chains, pads and mustard oil was also learned from some of the ASB trainers, but the ASB practice of shutting horses up in dark stalls or putting full blinders on them or using fire extinguishers never really caught on with the TWH trainers. And there is a reason for all the fire extinguisher stories-- They WERE pretty widely used as were fire crackers and whips by some ASB trainers. I have seen this with my own eyes in years past. Just saying.[/QUOTE]
The ginger started after the Arabian Horse breed was imported and started showing. The high tail gave a level croup look. The Arabs do it naturally as do “some ASB’s and Morgans” but the ginger PASTE was used. I guess someone could stick the root where the sun don’t shine but I fail to see how that would assist much. It is and was used on the under neath of the tail to get it to lift.
Why would an ASB trainer use mustard oil or any other soring device. This “debate” was debunked many times. Trotting horses can NOT perform when they are sore. Chains and pads are used on Saddlebreds HOWEVER chains are not used in the show ring EVER.
Soring, when it has occured, is blocked with the use of bute, and of course the famous case where the horses died…alleged to have been snake venom which kills pain usually as a result of over work. Therefore your claims appear suspect as to where these tortures originated
I watched many shows during the 60’s through to the 90’s. Yes…abuses in all breeds.here are a couple from the Arab shows…pig prods used on horses noses to make them perk their ears…cocaine up the nostrils to give them the fire, dance and bug eyed look (two halter techniques). Re Saddlebreds…the old fire extinguisher story did occur and was used, according to old timers ONLY A COUPLE OF TIMES…did more damage than good but makes for a wonderful urban legend. However due to the “legend status” there are newbies who have given it a try.
I had racing greyhounds for many years and yes…abuses there and also so many urban legends…
You are correct regarding shutting the horses up…usually stallions and I cringe when I hear a hillbilly type state that is how stallions should be kept. Their pappy did it as did their grand pappy. Thankfully that is not the norm for most breeders.
I would hate to see pads banned for breeds that are not misusing them. For instance, many older 20 plus year old Arabians are packing small kids in the ring would not be there without pads. We should not forget the therapeutic value! I am all for tossing the book at the BL walking horse crowd as they have had ample time to clean up their own act but it should be breed specific. Remember there are other breeds who allow pads for therapeutic and balancing who should not be caught up in this mess.
[QUOTE=lifesabreeze;6328022]
This
I also feel the need is regulations and enforcement of those rules. There must be specific rules and regulations. IMO The law proposed by the petition is not specific enough and only calls for an outright ban on pads and action devices.
“By enacting a law banning The Pads & Action Devices, the common practices of Soring will be unnecessary.”[/QUOTE]
Newsflash: there are Lite Shod and Plantation Walkers that get subjected to soring.
[QUOTE=Kwill;6328144]
@fairfax – most of the hitting comes from the idea that the horse shouldn’t flinch in pain, resulting from the examination of a steward for illegal soring. So get rid of the soring, get rid of at least some of the hitting and desensitizing.[/QUOTE]
Yes- get rid of the pads and “action devices” needed to create the Big Lick —and you get rid of the soring, which gets rid of the “need” to “steward” the horse by hitting it in the head and shocking it at the barn to teach it to hold still while its hooves are being checked at the inspection station at the show.
GEE, you can go even farther – Get rid of the pads and action devices and heavy shoes with hoobands and the Big Lick these are used to produce, and you get rid of the soring and the stewarding AND the NEED for DQPs And USDA VETS and “government intervention.”
And you can show SOUND UNSORED naturally gaited walking horses without the “need to cheat to win” and all the STUFF (see above) that the Big Lick has created.
[QUOTE=Renae;6328223]
Newsflash: there are Lite Shod and Plantation Walkers that get subjected to soring.[/QUOTE]
Did I say there wasn’t??? I only commented as to the non-specific wording of the proposed law in the petition.
“I also feel the need is regulations and enforcement of those rules. There must be specific rules and regulations. IMO The law proposed by the petition is not specific enough and only calls for an outright ban on pads and action devices.”
Perhaps you quoted the wrong post?
[QUOTE=Renae;6328223]
Newsflash: there are Lite Shod and Plantation Walkers that get subjected to soring.[/QUOTE]
Yeah-- The whole Big Lick perversion has spawned soring even in the lite shod and plantation ranks-- why should that surprise anyone since many of the formerly BL only trainers have branched out into training for the lite shod and the plantation classes too.
Since the judges tend to tie the flat shod horses that do the best imitation of the ARTIFICIAL big lick most of the time-- if you want to win in the flat shod classes, you have to start using “methods” that will produce as close an approximation of the ARTIFICIAL Big Lick even in the flat sod classes.
What better way to do that than to hire a BL trainer or one of those who have “branched out” to train flat as well as BL padded? Most of the judges are Big Lick trainers anyway, so they tie the Big Lick imitators, not the NATURAL bred-in gait. No surprise there, Sherlock.
[QUOTE=Renae;6328223]
Newsflash: there are Lite Shod and Plantation Walkers that get subjected to soring.[/QUOTE]
It’s not a “News Flash” a good portion of us are already aware… BUT you have to start somewhere, and once you’ve got those high pads and heavy action devices legislated out of existence, you can go to work on more of the related issues.
The Big Lick is absolutely medival, even without soring.
[QUOTE=oliverreed;6327747]
Amen!! I am not a TWH person, my passion is Paso Finos. But I am more than willing to get involved in support of TWHs subject to this torture. We ALL need to try and do something about this - because we ALL love HORSES.[/QUOTE]
Yes we do all love horses but some ppl with other breeds who have been attracted to this thread appear to be worrying more about covering their butts than trying to brainstorm to end soring.
Im not saying you oliverreed
Couldn’t find it with Google but weren’t some people opposed to soring murdered a few years ago?
[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6328272]
Yes we do all love horses but some ppl with other breeds who have been attracted to this thread appear to be worrying more about covering their butts than trying to brainstorm to end soring.[/QUOTE]
That and worrying unnecessarily that somehow, banning action devices meant to change knee action, will mean they are going to ban saddles, bridles, etc. The slippery slope argument in full force. Pure fearmongering. They’ve successfully made cockfighting illegal nationally, yet it is still legal to own/slaughter chickens and roosters. They’ve made horse tripping illegal nationally, yet horse ownership/riding/showing is still legal. They’ve made dog fighting illegal nationally, yet dog ownership is still legal. I just don’t see a ban on owning/riding/showing ever being realistic.
If they haven’t stopped soring/abuse/stewarding in 50 yrs, they are hardly going to succeed in banning non big lick activities. I’m just hoping it can be stopped in the TWH classes.
[QUOTE=jetsmom;6328286]
That and worrying unnecessarily that somehow, banning action devices meant to change knee action, will mean they are going to ban saddles, bridles, etc. [/QUOTE]
So you believe that all “action devices meant to change knee action” should be banned? Even the non-abusive devices that some Saddle Seat riders/trainers use?
[QUOTE=lifesabreeze;6328312]
So you believe that all “action devices meant to change knee action” should be banned? Even the non-abusive devices that some Saddle Seat riders/trainers use?[/QUOTE]
That was my point. Banning pads isn’t going to end soring. There are already non-padded TWHs that get sored. There are lots of trotting saddle seat breeds that do not get sored, as well as lots of non-saddle seat horses that wear pads as well. The HPA is written to regulate soring, but it does not name a specific breed or discipline. You add broad language like “ban all pads” that has further reaching consequences than intended. Very specific language will be needed, much more specific than the general proposals being whipped out here.
Chiming in a little late here but I sat on the board of our local Horse Show Association for many years. Our shows have included both Saddlebreds and Morgans for a long time. I understand that they used to also include TWH a looong time ago but that there were too many issues with “the good ole’ boys” and they dropped them from the show because the ASB and Morgan people did not want any association with them any more. I believe this was beore the HPA was enacted.
Renae is right about the use of lead, it is used more to correct the timing of a trot or to even out a trot. Horses that are flat movers, such as your TB and QH, usually don’t see the same type of gait issues that a high stepping horse sees. The more circular path that the hoof takes on the high stepping horses makes any unevenness more evident…such as a horse with a club foot may fold one leg underneath and pitch the other ahead (just using one example).
The ability to use wedges to even up angles, or lead to help control the flight path of the hoof or to slow down/speed up one foot in relation to another so the horse’s cadence and rhythm is improved, and yes, even sometimes a heavier shoe will help with cadence and rhythm…these are cruicial training aids to help achieve soundness and performance in some breeds.
They should not be banned, just regulated.
I am all for BL going away, but not the ability to use wedges and weights…or chains for that matter. Chains do not hurt the horse, only chains on sored horses hurt.
Heavy chains hurt. They indeed use heavy chains at home. And most of the goo stuff being sold is to prevent the pastern soring and scurfing that comes from using the “training” chains.
What are the limits of shoeing on the ASB? The Morgan? The National SHow Horse? The Arabian?
[QUOTE=hurleycane;6328388]
What are the limits of shoeing on the ASB? The Morgan? The National SHow Horse? The Arabian?[/QUOTE]
You can easily find all of that information in the USEF Rule Book.
[QUOTE=jetsmom;6328286]
That and worrying unnecessarily that somehow, banning action devices meant to change knee action, will mean they are going to ban saddles, bridles, etc. The slippery slope argument in full force. Pure fearmongering. They’ve successfully made cockfighting illegal nationally, yet it is still legal to own/slaughter chickens and roosters. They’ve made horse tripping illegal nationally, yet horse ownership/riding/showing is still legal. They’ve made dog fighting illegal nationally, yet dog ownership is still legal. I just don’t see a ban on owning/riding/showing ever being realistic.
If they haven’t stopped soring/abuse/stewarding in 50 yrs, they are hardly going to succeed in banning non big lick activities. I’m just hoping it can be stopped in the TWH classes.[/QUOTE]
I sure wish I had your confidence. I saw first hand the direction PETA was going and I have studied and worked hard against HSUS as I know their agenda.
Cock fighting, rightly so is illega. It is now against the law in many areas to raise chickens in “factories” and they continue to assault the industry in order to shut it down.
HSUS effectively closed ALL hog operations (commercial) in the state of Florida when they had the hog welping pens made illegal (they had a bar so the hog would not roll on and kill her babies)
HSUS has influenced counties, towns and cities as to eliminating free run dog parks, restricting bonified breeders in their attempt to stop puppy millers etc (this is how I see it is going to effect the horse industry.) Go after the Puppy Millers (Big Lick Trainers) and outlaw breeding…or restricting numbers of dogs (including new born puppies which stops purebred breeders from producing saleable litters and show prospects. ( trainers who are not involved in TWH’s or not abusive with their use ot training equipment.
As Bayou stated…she doesn’t care if ALL action devices are banned or outlawed EVEN THOSE THAT DO NOT HURT A HORSE…she calls them cheating.
I am not condoning abuse or soring. I am just asking for us to pause and think very carefully before we demand legislature bodies change laws. Yes…change them…but make them very specific. Nets in the sea, trying to catch cod also catch the porpoise…
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6328430]
I sure wish I had your confidence. I saw first hand the direction PETA was going and I have studied and worked hard against HSUS as I know their agenda.
Cock fighting, rightly so is illega. It is now against the law in many areas to raise chickens in “factories” and they continue to assault the industry in order to shut it down.
HSUS effectively closed ALL hog operations (commercial) in the state of Florida when they had the hog welping pens made illegal (they had a bar so the hog would not roll on and kill her babies)
HSUS has influenced counties, towns and cities as to eliminating free run dog parks, restricting bonified breeders in their attempt to stop puppy millers etc (this is how I see it is going to effect the horse industry.) Go after the Puppy Millers (Big Lick Trainers) and outlaw breeding…or restricting numbers of dogs (including new born puppies which stops purebred breeders from producing saleable litters and show prospects. ( trainers who are not involved in TWH’s or not abusive with their use ot training equipment.
As Bayou stated…she doesn’t care if ALL action devices are banned or outlawed EVEN THOSE THAT DO NOT HURT A HORSE…she calls them cheating.
I am not condoning abuse or soring. I am just asking for us to pause and think very carefully before we demand legislature bodies change laws. Yes…change them…but make them very specific. Nets in the sea, trying to catch cod also catch the porpoise…[/QUOTE]
Can you show national laws that back up your points? I googled them, and couldn’t find anything. Nothing banning chicken factories, breeding dogs, dog parks…
Regulating puppy mills is necessary, and doesn’t mean that pet ownership is going to end…Gestation crates for hogs have always been controversial and considered cruel by many. I don’t believe the argument that they are needed. You have a huge escalating wild pig problem in many states, and they don’t have their babies in gestation crates, so apparently in light of the population explosion of wild pigs, they can have piglets that survive quite well without them. (But not in a small pen that barely allows them to turn around.) Apparently the FL hog farms decided they would rather move than come up with a better arrangement.
I’m all for laws that improve animal welfare. I’d like to see the national(not local/state,) laws that have been enacted that have harmed animals, that some seem so concerned about.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6328206]
I guess someone could stick the root where the sun don’t shine but I fail to see how that would assist much. It is and was used on the under neath of the tail to get it to lift.
Why would an ASB trainer use mustard oil or any other soring device. This “debate” was debunked many times. Trotting horses can NOT perform when they are sore. Chains and pads are used on Saddlebreds HOWEVER chains are not used in the show ring EVER. You are correct regarding shutting the horses up…usually stallions and I cringe when I hear a hillbilly type state that is how stallions should be kept. Their pappy did it as did their grand pappy. Thankfully that is not the norm for most breeders.[/QUOTE]
Fairfax–I guess you are trying to be deliberately obtuse to be annoying in the supercilious way that some ASB people I know are. Notice to ASB people— this is directed at Fairfax and refers to the ASB snit-snobs I know-- not the nice ASB people I know.
FYI- BEFORE the commercial ginger paste was manufactured and available from the tack store—ginger root-- the same ginger root that can be bought and grated up to make ginger cakes and cookies and even ginger beer-- THAT ginger-- which if you chew it up does produce a mild burn-- that is what the trainers chewed up. They chewed it to make a kind of a “homemade” paste. They placed “somewhere under the tail on the horses’ rear ends”- and they said it was put in or on the anus.
I really don’t think the lady who told me about this was making this up, and she probably did not witness the operation up close and personal-- when she was showing, most ladies didn’t go into the barns etc. They waited for the horses to be brought out already tacked up, and they were assisted to mount using a mounting block.
This woman was 60 in 1972. So you do the math and figure out how old she was in the 1920s or 1930s when she started showing horses. And remember she was showing in the SOUTH so I really don’t think she or the trainers were that influenced by ANYTHING Arab people were doing because Arabian horses were not popular down here back then.
And FYI- This practice apparently has a much longer history–
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“Figging…To treat a horse in such a way as to make the animal appear lively, as by putting a piece of ginger into the anus.”
— Imperial Dictionary of the English Language, 1883.[1]
An 1811 dictionary states: “to feague a horse is to put ginger up a horse’s fundament, and formerly, as it is said, a live eel, to make him lively and carry his tail well. It is said, a forfeit is incurred by any horse-dealer’s servant, who shall show a horse without first feaguing him.”[2] Ginger is an irritant, and when administered to a horse, the horse will carry its tail high and generally act somewhat restless and more lively. In the past, the purpose was often to make an older horse behave like one that was younger, or to temporarily liven up a sick or weakened animal.
Today this practice still occurs, now called gingering the tail or simply gingering. Most often, it is done with a paste product with concentrated Gingerol. Today the purpose is mostly to make the horse carry its tail high, and to a lesser extent to encourage the horse to move in a lively fashion. It is a particular problem for the halter horses in the Arabian and American Saddlebred breeds, where high tail carriage and animation are desired traits. However, nearly all horse show sanctioning organizations in the USA explicitly forbid it and have the authority to disqualify a horse abused in this way. While some areas may be less than rigorous about enforcing the rule, tests such as “ginger swabbing” may be done to detect the presence of ginger in the anus. While it is not entirely reliable, concerns of being detected by anal tests has led to some horse handlers placing the raw ginger in the vagina, if the horse is a mare.[3] A modern veterinary dictionary notes that vaginal placement is more effective than anal insertion, because the ginger is likely to remain in place longer, and concludes gingering “would be considered to be an act of cruelty in any civilized community.”[4]
And the FIVE-GAITED ASBs-- You know the ones that are shown with a full mane and tail and ribbons braided in like the walkers-- THOSE were indeed “doctored” with mustard oil–apparently by at least a few trainers— this same assertion was made by several older grooms and trainers of both walking horses and saddlebreds —I really don’t think the old men who were interviewed for an oral history thesis project were deliberately lying about that either. As a student, I helped transcribe some of tapes about old time horse shows in the South.
Personally I believe that the use of mustard oil to alter or enhance a gaited horse’s gait was probably just an accidental discovery. It is a fact that mustard oil was used in liniments and various cures for strains and sprains on both horses and people-- ever heard of a “mustard plaster?”
Perhaps a trainer had treated a horse for a lameness problem and thinking it cured enough to resume training, then placed the “action device” of choice on its pasterns and noticed that it stepped higher or reached farther. The “stories” that some gaited trainers-- both ASB and TWH --used chains and rollers sometimes in combination with mustard oil is just too widespread not to have a grain of truth in it somewhere.
But it really doesn’t matter, I who started using whatever to sore which breed of horses to alter the gaits. The whole point is that any and all use of this kind of stuff should stop.
Obviously we all don’t exactly see the problem from the same point of view regarding its history and don’t agree on what should be done to stop it.
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