It’s not really funny, but this made me laugh…
[QUOTE=Guilherme;6329780]
To the best of my knowledge War Admiral is incorrect.
It should also be noted that sentencing in Federal Court is done pursuant to very defined sentencing guidelines. Ditto for sentences in TN Criminal Courts. “Mob rule” demanding the head of the person convicted is no longer an authorized practice.
G.[/QUOTE]
Ah, okay - thanks for the clarification.
they have many classes all week long,in their small pea brain they think its only the Big Lick that brings people to the show.
in part thats what TWHBEA promotes,the BL folks have salted the board of directors so that their way was the way and the farms like waterfall paid trainers like McConnell.
and another thing here,after reading the document to the GJ,i found it interesting that he (McConnell)came to
Bedford county showed had to have another man as the trainer cause he was suspended,who’s arm did he twist or did the owner of the horse pay off the training board. will the owners be charged at a later date.
the people of Bedford County know what is going on in the barns,they know what is being sold to trainers and why.THEY could help stop the ABUSE,but because of GREED they DON’T
all they need to do is say stop the BL CLASSES STOP the ABUSE. if they stand up to the celebration board than Bedford county wont get this new blk cloud,or title of TWH abuse county.
The last few days i have been sitting back and watching this thread provide great resources but also get sidetracked. There are some who contribute and say they are against soring but have different breed alliances and are just going blah blah blah and not contributing anything constructive to the issue at hand - stopping soring.
Although COTH provides great exposure, it is hard to keep a thread on track. It is good to hear a lot of opinions but in this case i feel a few posters continue to post off topic and sabotage the thread.
It is easy to set up a bulletin board, i have done it before. Thinking about starting a Stop Soring BB and inviting like minded people to join and contribute. It can be a place to stay current and brainstorm. Many of the BBs also offer real time chat. It can be a place for like minded people to have fun or blow off steam when needed.
We could have several forums ie Latest Media, Who To Contact, How To Rehab a BL horse,Picture Sharing etc. Having a BB like that, you would not have to wade through pages of off topic posts OR put up with those who delight in sabotaging or going blah blah blah about their own agendas. There could be a “sticky” thread to keep current on actions to be taken, ie emailing, calling or writing whoever. A BB can be set to “public” and several people can be given moderator tools so the burden is not on any one person. If someone joined for the wrong reason and was disruptive, they could be banned. Or it can be set to “private” invitation only members.
Who could join ? Anyone wanting to stay current on soring issues. Anyone wanting to know how they can help.
Walk in the Woods - I realize you started this entire thread, but you were also the first one to tell Saddlebred folks that we should go start our own thread. I don’t know if you have ever served as a Moderator or an Admin, but I have. I will say that sometimes getting a bit off track can lead to some very productive conversation and if nothing else, can sometimes lead to more of a joint effort through understanding in other areas, then people are more able/willing to focus on desired areas. Greatly off topic isn’t always desired, but a little off topic should be overlooked and even invited at times. Thankfully some people on this thread reminded me that I have a right to post here and should be considered a concerned person as much as anyone so I am grateful to their attitude. Please don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
The hard, sad truth is that the BL horses DO bring in the Big Money at the Celebration. The Light Shod and Flat Shod classes don’t.
To get the “crowd pleasing” gait that will bring cheers from the grandstand requires the same types of actions the McConnell has been found guilty of. That will also enhance the value of the animal (mare or stallion) as a breeding prospect.
It’s about the money, but not about a small cadre of evil doers working in “smoke filled rooms” or barns far off the public highway. To assume this and to form an “action plan” based upon this erronious assumption virtually guarantees the type of abject failure that we’ve had for the last 52 years.
So “follow the money” but be prepared for what you find when you get to the end of the trail.
What to do? Encourage proper funding for HPA related enforcement. This will mean a letter to your senator or concressman. Don’t patronize the system that makes this all possible. Don’t breed your TWH mare to a WGC stallion. Don’t patronize the businesses that support the Sore Lick* world of shows, trainers, farriers, etc. Don’t register horses with registries that aid, abet, and promote these practices. Don’t hire judges, DQPs, stewards, etc. with a history of tollerance for Sore Lick practices.
None of these things, individually, will end these practices as long as they can fill a grandstand for a few nights. Over time, however, it can reduce the numbers and make the Sore Lick show an embarassing footnote in U.S. equine history.
G.
*Note that the Sore Lick includes the Padded Horse, but also the Flat and Light Shod horses doing a poor imitation of the Big Lick with the aid of both legal and illegal methods.
Ok, this has been sitting rather uncomfortably in my shorts, and I’ll just throw this out there; I’m glad the practice is brought to light and the abuses are one step closer to stopping, but:
- When did HSUS become a law enforcement branch?
- Did they obtain a warrant to conceal their purpose?
- Did they obtain a warrant to film?
- Did they obtain a warrant to search and seize evidence?
And arguably:
- Does publishing the video violate the right of due process?
Regardless of how big a jerk someone is, the following rights are constitutionally granted to ALL citizens of the United States:
Right of search and seizure regulated
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Provisons concerning prosecution
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.
Right to a speedy trial, witnesses, etc.
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
So… Whether or not he’s Guilty; unless 1 is official, and 2-4 are Yes; this man’s constitutional rights against unwarranted search and seizure have been violated by a non-governmental non-police agency who, by nationally publicizing the case, have also greatly hampered his right to a trial by an impartial jury.
Guilty? Yep. Disturbing precedent? Deeply.
Sorry to rain on the parade…
Blue bold replies added by me. Off topic a bit, but I wanted to reply to bayou bengal.
Blue bold replies added by me. Off topic a bit, but I wanted to reply to bayou bengal.
[QUOTE=bludejavu;6329878]
Walk in the Woods - I realize you started this entire thread, but you were also the first one to tell Saddlebred folks that we should go start our own thread. I don’t know if you have ever served as a Moderator or an Admin, but I have. I will say that sometimes getting a bit off track can lead to some very productive conversation and if nothing else, can sometimes lead to more of a joint effort through understanding in other areas, then people are more able/willing to focus on desired areas. Greatly off topic isn’t always desired, but a little off topic should be overlooked and even invited at times. Thankfully some people on this thread reminded me that I have a right to post here and should be considered a concerned person as much as anyone so I am grateful to their attitude. Please don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.[/QUOTE]
I do agree with you. I did not say that ppl with other breeds would not be welcome ! What i said was - Anyone wanting to stay current on soring issues. Anyone wanting to know how they can help. You are right ! Diversity it good. And i learned a lot from the slightly off topic posts. The way off topic ones… not so much. The bottom line is being constructive. It is easy to read between the lines and figure out what a poster is trying to accomplish.
Yes i have moderated a chatroom on MIRC back in the day and more recently a friendly gaited (and other breed) BB. Moderating can be a thankless job unless you get a great group of ppl. When i asked ASB to start their own thread it seemed like a general statement was directed more to a couple posters who i felt were not contributing in a positive way.
[QUOTE=PeteyPie;6329540]
You can look at it another way: businesses and charitable organizations have chosen to make their profits on the back of a cruel practice, a practice that is well-known through the years of scandals, news coverage, indictments, and prosecutions, not to mention common knowledge.
Instead of refusing to condone big lick practices and speaking out, they have profited for years. And they brought their kids in to teach them the same.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
Besides being very proud of themselves for the fact that they have profited off the hideously cruel practices all these years, they are also complicit.
[QUOTE=AlterNetReality;6329897]
Ok, this has been sitting rather uncomfortably in my shorts, and I’ll just throw this out there; I’m glad the practice is brought to light and the abuses are one step closer to stopping, but:
- When did HSUS become a law enforcement branch?
- Did they obtain a warrant to conceal their purpose?
- Did they obtain a warrant to film?
- Did they obtain a warrant to search and seize evidence?
And arguably:
- Does publishing the video violate the right of due process?
Regardless of how big a jerk someone is, the following rights are constitutionally granted to ALL citizens of the United States:
Right of search and seizure regulated
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Provisons concerning prosecution
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.
Right to a speedy trial, witnesses, etc.
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
So… Whether or not he’s Guilty; unless 1 is official, and 2-4 are Yes; this man’s constitutional rights against unwarranted search and seizure have been violated by a non-governmental non-police agency who, by nationally publicizing the case, have also greatly hampered his right to a trial by an impartial jury.
Guilty? Yep. Disturbing precedent? Deeply.
Sorry to rain on the parade…[/QUOTE]
Lordy you must be in law school. Ever heard of Whistle Blower??? Might be worth the look.
[QUOTE=Renae;6328343]
That was my point. Banning pads isn’t going to end soring. There are already non-padded TWHs that get sored. There are lots of trotting saddle seat breeds that do not get sored, as well as lots of non-saddle seat horses that wear pads as well. The HPA is written to regulate soring, but it does not name a specific breed or discipline. You add broad language like “ban all pads” that has further reaching consequences than intended. Very specific language will be needed, much more specific than the general proposals being whipped out here.[/QUOTE]
Ah so we are on the same page then. I believe any laws, rules or regulations need to be very specific.
Soring is NOT unique to BL horses.
http://www.americanfarriers.com/pages/News-And-Notes-Three-Indicted-On-Soring-Charges.php
The link above details the soring of LITE SHOD horses. SSH shows don’t even have BL classes. The only horses I’ve personally, with my own eyeballs, seen sored were LITE SHOD SSH’s.
At the risk of being flamed for the rest of my life I’m going to say this to the people who are whining about the economic impact in Shelbyville/Bedford county and the sourrounding area. The great Southern plantations with their lavish lifestyles were built on the backs of blacks who bent to the lash. A great war was fought to stop it (along with other reasons.) The Southern economy was destroyed. That was necessary to stop the cruelty. If the economy is affected in Shelbyville the same way, so be it. Whatever it takes to stop the Big Lick. I am deeply ashamed of the South, soring is rampant here, as well as other parts of the country, but it did start here. Ok, ready for flames, got big girl pants on.
I for one would not dream of flaming you for that comment. The people that profit from and support the BL folks are almost as guilty and they deserve to be hit where they live.
[QUOTE=AlterNetReality;6329897]
- When did HSUS become a law enforcement branch?
- Did they obtain a warrant to conceal their purpose?
- Did they obtain a warrant to film?
- Did they obtain a warrant to search and seize evidence?
And arguably:
- Does publishing the video violate the right of due process?[/QUOTE]
#1 - it’s not. So, #2-4 don’t apply as they put restrictions on the government, not private citizens. So, if you see someone committing a crime and you pull out your cell phone to record the event, and then turn the recording over to the authorities, there’s no problem.
#5 - the video should have been introduced as evidence in the indictment so it would be public information.
[QUOTE=hurleycane;6329932]
Lordy you must be in law school. Ever heard of Whistle Blower??? Might be worth the look.[/QUOTE]
Yes, those laws protect someone from retaliation for refusing to comply with an illegal order/directive/situation, and reporting it… I get what a whistleblower is…
What I don’t get is how, in this and similar cases, it’s not a violation of their constitutional rights. The person went in under false pretenses (read: under cover) to obtain video evidence (“search” for a violation and “sieze” video evidence) and none’s crying foul that the “Highest Law of the Land” has been violated by an agency parading around without a badge or a warrent. Enforcement by Vigilante has always been a Bad Thing. Now everyone’s applauding “Justice” while turning a blind eye to the fact that real “Justice” involves “Due Process of Law.”
[QUOTE=gieriscm;6330006]
#1 - it’s not. So, #2-4 don’t apply as they put restrictions on the government, not private citizens. So, if you see someone committing a crime and you pull out your cell phone to record the event, and then turn the recording over to the authorities, there’s no problem.
#5 - the video should have been introduced as evidence in the indictment so it would be public information.[/QUOTE]
Thank you.
Followon Question:
If you record a conversation on your phone without the other partie’s consent, and an illegal activity is discussed, and you report it to the police; is that evidence admissable in court? Or does it get thrown out as an illegal wiretap?
[QUOTE=AlterNetReality;6330014]
Yes, those laws protect someone from retaliation for refusing to comply with an illegal order/directive/situation, and reporting it… I get what a whistleblower is…
What I don’t get is how, in this and similar cases, it’s not a violation of their constitutional rights. The person went in under false pretenses (read: under cover) to obtain video evidence (“search” for a violation and “sieze” video evidence) [/QUOTE]
Actually I think the person who filmed was already an employee of the abuser before ‘recruited’ [I dunno if the person who shot the vid. was employed by HSUS, paid by HSUS or just volunteered to do it after becoming physically ill after watching these animals abused day after day after day…] by the HSUS.
