Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=Rbow;6357982]
In this case, I think the lack of regulation is more empowering to the animal rights movement. Even without soring/stewarding, the Big Lick is an effective recruiting tool for AR activism. This 50-year old mess is a gold mine.[/QUOTE]

Not really. This will be pushed off the front page by some other outrage in some other equine discipline. That has been the history for the past 50 years and will likely be so in the future. If anything the “hot news life cycle” decreases with each new technology. The Industry knows this and is just “hunkered down” for the time being.

And HSUS will just pocket the extra funds raised and look for another issue to back. Not that this one will “go away,” but will just drop back in priority.

Further, the real action is in Nashville, not New York or DC. If you want to push our oft-times redneck legislature into non-action (or worse, into re-action) just push hard from the Left or Right Coast. If you wish to suceed at the State level then you’ll have to deal with the people that are in place.

This statute does give some new tools to the prosecution to address serious issues. Note that the legislation also forbids dragging an animal behind a vehicle. That was the genesis of this proposal. It stemmed from a case in McMinn Co. last year.

I live in a county where an overzealous ACO made an inappropriate siezure of dairy cattle. I was personally involved in the matter. The county got sued for a Federal Civil Rights violation and ended up paying $300,000 to the owners in compensation. This also resulted in a change in State law requiring a pre-investigation by a person with specific knowledge of livestock care before a herd can be siezed. The risk of “animal rights activism” is quite real.

You don’t note where you live. If you’re a TN resident then your concerns should be addressed to your state sen. or rep. If you don’t live in TN then you can make your feelings known to any state authority you wish. How seriously you will be taken is unknown.

G.

[aarpaso]

i’m calling my State Vet,asking if he will be in on this Animal Care stakeholder call.also my State Agricultrul Commissioner,horses put thousands of DOLLARS in this Sates economy,what about your state?

Guilherme,are you suggesting we band together and sue the State of Tn. force them so to speak into doing the right thing. interesting concept

Watchout:Showing at the Celebration,wont help this cause it will just make the BL folks think its about your owner and the personal things humans get caught up in.

jmo

[subk]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6358584]
Further, the real action is in Nashville, not New York or DC. If you want to push our oft-times redneck legislature into non-action (or worse, into re-action) just push hard from the Left or Right Coast. If you wish to suceed at the State level then you’ll have to deal with the people that are in place.[/QUOTE]
So much I like about your posts. G. if you have any specific ideas in terms of possible state action I’d love to hear them…feel free to PM me if you’d rather not post.

[Rbow]

[QUOTE=subk;6358875]
So much I like about your posts. G. if you have any specific ideas in terms of possible state action I’d love to hear them…feel free to PM me if you’d rather not post.[/QUOTE]

Good Luck (seriously).

I do think there are some different forces at work this time and I’m more optimistic.

I agree, TN residents will have the biggest influence in Nashville and appreciate your efforts.

[WalkInTheWoods]

Champagne Watchout - Still around and still sound. Natalie is a lovely rider. Watching those BL horses reverse in the ring is so ridiculous. Come to a stop so the horse can change gears. Carefully turn. If they tried to have them move in a small circle at their “gait” i think many would end up entangling their crazy legs and end up tripping. I dont know how that manufactured gait made it off the drawing board, certainly no engineers were involved.

Thanks for the headsup Plain and Tall. Waiting for a call back to see what their criteria for a stakeholder is.

Added - My take is that entering Champagne Watchout would be more symbolic than anything else. How old is he now - he must be in this twenties.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=aarpaso;6358837]

Guilherme,are you suggesting we band together and sue the State of Tn. force them so to speak into doing the right thing. interesting concept[/QUOTE]

No, I’m not suggesting suing the State. The State is soverign and is immune from most suits, particularly those that demand a political action.

The legislature is the place where laws are written. That is the place to push for action. But in a functioning republic you must be prepared to meet resistance and if you can’t overcome that resistence then you lose. That’s how our system works.

In reality the core areas of the Big Lick horse in TN are a relatively few counties. The number of people who own BL horses is relatively small. But they also tend to be relatively well off and relatively politically active. So my suggested approach is not at all a “slam dunk.”

G.

[Fairfax]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6356566]
The only way to get the TWH off this merry go round is to make stacks and action devices illegal.[/QUOTE]

Please define action devices and would that include at home training?

Please define stacks, would that be all stacks, corrective shoeing stacks or theraputic stacks, if so, and it renders the animal unusable what are your solutions?

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=subk;6358875]
So much I like about your posts. G. if you have any specific ideas in terms of possible state action I’d love to hear them…feel free to PM me if you’d rather not post.[/QUOTE]

TN residents that feel strongly on this issue should be writing their State reps. and urging stronger action.

The Legislature is currently in recess and will not reconvien until after the general election. This means that we are in the “silly season.” Go to a few “meet and greet” events with candidates and “feel them out” on this subject. Then vote (with your ballot, your dollars and your time volunteering for one who shares your views).

There is no “silver bullet” that can be fired into the heart of this issue. It will take a combination of not providing economic support to the Sore Lick crowd (not breeding to Sore Lick horses, not hiring Sore Lick trainers, etc.). It means not patronizing businesses who support the Sore Lick crowd (and letting those businesses know where your dollars are going). It means starving the TWHBEA of funds (meaning registering horses elsewhere). There are lots of other steps that I’m sure others can think of.

At the end of the day it’s the TWH owners who provide the funds that make this whole thing possible. When they decide “enough is enough” the war will be won. Unless and until they do it will go on.

G.

[walknsound]

The_Walking_Horse_World[1].pdfReply to sender

[bayou_bengal]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6358982]
Please define action devices and would that include at home training?

Please define stacks, would that be all stacks, corrective shoeing stacks or theraputic stacks, if so, and it renders the animal unusable what are your solutions?[/QUOTE]

GIVE IT A REST, FAIRFAX

You have bee posting, and I assume reading this thread long enough to know what is being talked about. Quit trying to derail the conversation and turn all the attention on you and YOUR breed.

This thread is about TWHS.

P. S. No reply is needed.

[subk]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6358994]
TN residents that feel strongly on this issue should be writing their State reps. and urging stronger action. [/QUOTE]
The problem is no one wants to define “stronger action” in terms of real and doable legislative action. So far all anyone has encouraged is for contact. Telling a legislator “this is bad, change it” is helpful in terms of supporting existing legislation, but at the moment that legislation doesn’t exist.

Here’s the deal with state legislators. (I am involved in politics in TN, but this is probably the case in any state.) Most of the people who are state legislators are so because they have been successful in their communities doing something OTHER than politics. They are part time legislators with a part time salary, under staffed and in most cases without fiscal means to do research. The majority are well intentioned individuals who do want to the right thing. Some are very bright and disappointing number not so bright.

If you want them to change something the most proficient way to do so if provide them with access to research as well as (sound) bite facts that they can use for political cover and then spell out an actionable plan. Actionable being a very important element. Trust me, you don’t want legislators to come up with a plan on their own.

So COTHers, what’s the doable legislative action?

[bayou_bengal]

[QUOTE=katarine;6357974]
Um, no. He is a good soul, that horse: but he’s not a great TWH. And he’s not sired any great TWHs. Sorry, but he hasn’t.[/QUOTE]

I wonder just how many high dollar quality mares have been brought to his court, Not many I bet because his owners have not toed the party line and have had the nerve to challenge the BL hegemony.

THAT is how it works, you know, or should know, katarine. Buck the system and they “freeze you out.” And probably most of the horses he has sired have not been shown in the shows where all the BL people control everything anyway.

Looking at his pedigree- there isn’t any reason to expect him NOT be be a “great” sire-- he has Midnight Sun as a great-grandsire, which is pretty “close up” for a horse sired in 1993 He has MS showing again further back on another line, too.

He also shows Society Man, owned by Steve Hill on his papers. Also shows The Super Stock, Ebony’s Senator, Ebony Masterpiece, Mack K’s Handshaker, Johnny Midnight, John A’s Chance and other “known walkers” on the papers. He shows Wilson’s Allen twice on the papers too and has some Merry Boy and Merry Go Boy in his background as well as a good dose of Dement-bred horses.

If I were still breeding, I would take a chance on him as a sire any day.

Perhaps The Preacher can name some of his get who have distinguished themselves in the show ring. I have not kept up with anything TWHBEA since about 1992-- a year before Watchout was foaled.

[walknsound]

The following press release was issued this afternoon: USDA Publishes Final Rule to Provide Greater Protection for HorsesAction Will Require Horse Industry Organizations to Assess Minimum Penalties for Violationshttp://www.aphis.usda.gov/newsroom/2012/06/hpa_finalrule.shtml

[walknsound]

[QUOTE=bayou_bengal;6359325]
I wonder just how many high dollar quality mares have been brought to his court, Not many I bet because his owners have not toed the party line and have had the nerve to challenge the BL hegemony.

THAT is how it works, you know, or should know, katarine. Buck the system and they “freeze you out.” And probably most of the horses he has sired have not been shown in the shows where all the BL people control everything anyway.

Looking at his pedigree- there isn’t any reason to expect him NOT be be a “great” sire-- he has Midnight Sun as a great-grandsire, which is pretty “close up” for a horse sired in 1993 He has MS showing again further back on another line, too.

He also shows Society Man, owned by Steve Hill on his papers. Also shows The Super Stock, Ebony’s Senator, Ebony Masterpiece, Mack K’s Handshaker, Johnny Midnight, John A’s Chance and other “known walkers” on the papers. He shows Wilson’s Allen twice on the papers too and has some Merry Boy and Merry Go Boy in his background as well as a good dose of Dement-bred horses.

If I were still breeding, I would take a chance on him as a sire any day.

Perhaps The Preacher can name some of his get who have distinguished themselves in the show ring. I have not kept up with anything TWHBEA since about 1992-- a year before Watchout was foaled.[/QUOTE]

Well said, and right on!

[Fairfax]

[QUOTE=bayou_bengal;6359233]
GIVE IT A REST, FAIRFAX

You have bee posting, and I assume reading this thread long enough to know what is being talked about. Quit trying to derail the conversation and turn all the attention on you and YOUR breed.

This thread is about TWHS.

P. S. No reply is needed.[/QUOTE]

I find it so sad that you believe miopic thinking will solve your problems. THIS is why there will be more traffic to COTH and many will want to know what is happening without having to read so many posts.

Lexington, Kentucky - The United Professional Horsemen’s Association (UPHA) hopes that everyone is enjoying a great start to the 2012 show season. Please note that there is a possibility that the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) will be attending and observing at several of the American Saddlebred, Morgan and Hackney Pony horse shows across the country.

As you meet and greet these Federal employees please be kind and courteous and represent our breeds with the class they deserve.

This is ONLY the start. Everyone will be tarnished with the Big Lick brush. I appreciate your passion towards the subject even after removing yourself from TWH breeding and shows decades ago. Things have changed since your departure from the show ring.

Now ALL BREEDS and ALL EXHIBITORS come under scrutiny from the watchful public.

If you are even hoping for a small kernel of success with your soring of BL TWH’s then you are going to need the support of other breeds and breeders/exhibitors.

When there is no money in the coffers for the HSUS, they will move on…so why not work with others without that huge chip on your shoulder?

[Fairfax]

Many TWH’s have classes provided for them at Saddlebred/Morgan shows. If the TWH brings negative publicity to the shows offering plantation and flat shod classes (the public don’t know there is a difference between BL and Flat), then they may boycott the shows OR include the other breeds with the TW and BL…RESULT: No more TW classes will be offered.

I think OTHER breeds do have an impact on the TWH

[aarpaso]

I just don’t see anything negative in having a plantation /flat shod class at a ASB/Morgan show,this only helps the public see/or at least question what the BL folks do to the TWH breed.

As far as the USDA at ABS/Morgan shows not to worry if ya ani’t doin nothin wrong smile and wave.if ya are load your horse and take’m home.and clean up your act.

its THE HORSE PROTECTION ACT not the TWH PROTECTION ACT, its just the TWH that is so brutily abused,

[The_Preacher]

MY GOODNESS OF LIFE!!! My mama would say

I have been trying to keep up with y’all and every other arena I am in…

Let me say something here…I am all over the world in different clubs, orgs, groups and living rooms…

Not slamming or degrading anyone else when I say this

THIS group CHRONICLES OF THE HORSE ~~~aka COTH is the most highly equine educated group of people…oh, please don’t beat me up with that statement by copying, cutting and pasting somewhere else just to show me out…

This to point out ~~remind you of what this group, as I see it~ is all about

I don’t think there is a horse, or breed of horse that get trashed here…~~~~

What all the back and forth aruging and discussions are about … are the people who own those horses, the things they do, the things they don’t do the things they should do…

From Blooding letting, Rollkur, Pads and Chains, Soring, Abuse or any of the plethora of deeds, practices, attitudes or shoe size that us as individuals like, dislike, defend or attack~~~~

We all have preferences. I use the preference link on my puter all the time make things just the way I want them. Would not that be awesome if we could hit a preference button on humans!!!

I said all that to say this…YOU would not be here after more than three trips IF you did not have a love for this wonderful animal…

Your eyes, your eyes, will tell you almost all truths…When I went back in 1998-1999 I kept singing a song in my head as to what I wanted to accomplish

A group called “Undisputed Truth” had song called “Smiling Faces” and in it they sang…”The truth is in the eyes cause the eyes don’t lie…Amen!”

Your eyes told you as soon as they locked onto that video…This is not right!

Now, here’s where things get contentious…your brain now processes that truth the eyes just sent to it then that information depending on how YOU want to spin it…goes to the mouth and then you open it!

COTH has the strength to impact the whole of the equine world…let me say that again…COTH has the strength to impact the whole of the equine world!

This is about one single issue…THE ABUSE, SORING AND CORRUPTION in one of our sister breeds…

What my horse has done or not done is not the focus…pick up that axe handle leaning there against your leg at the ready and let’s go after that!

Once I took this body of mine that many in my own country had no use for…and put into service of my country for WHAT I BELIEVED….I knew what that meant…I already had gone to classmates funerals that had done this before me…so my eyes were wide open

When I showed back then…my eyes were again wide open and more than that…my family also understood and wanted to be a part of “Daddy’s Platoon”

Now they are all grown up…I now have 4 girls wanting to go into that class…I am trying to find horses, and money to give them that opportunity…clothes, horse stuff, shoeing, all the show stuff you all know in order to go into your breed’s World Grand Championship Class…entry fees, qualifying class and then the WGC… $2,130.00

YOUR job? Writing those letters, to everyone we can put out here that may have some impact on changing the status quo~~~~ getting each other’s back…not sticking things into them…

As a collective group…dang, what you could accomplish…

THAT’S why I come here dagnabbit!

If we The Jackson’s are willing to once again go into that lion’s den to change the world perception of this breed…get behind me! if you can’t go with me…write them letters, tell your friends to write then, it even if you gotta compose one for them…

If you can, put your butt in one of them seats there…shoot,…box seats are being rented very cheaply…so you and 5 of your friends can go down there, sip champagne and watch history be made

Shoot help us with a slogan, theme for tee shirts all of the same color …dang it let’s turn this mutha out!

Take the lead where you should be!

[The_Preacher]

One more thing…I lay in bed at night with the french doors open

…I can hear my grass and weeds out there laughing at me and partying it up…because I have not been able to get off this dang puter and go out there and deal with them!

Just wanted to share

[katarine]

A very nice, very sound, 100% compliant horse. His trainer, Hannah Pulvers, does not appear on the HPA list. She has no skeletons. She just knows how to select and develop talented horses.

http://youtu.be/IONmsxgmfHk

another

http://youtu.be/4XMmrSmD_bg

http://youtu.be/rf9x_ZDPZnU

There are 82 videos of Hannah’s horses on youtube. Enjoy. That’s a sound, honest, delightful set of naturally gaited and well ridden sound TWHs.

If Nathaniel Jackson can point out CW’s stellar career on the rail, or his amazing progeny, I’m all ears. In the meanwhile, I’m trying to find it myself.

Notice the lack of push from behind, hardly any headshake, and tension in the walking gaits. Not the goal or the desired look for a TWH.

http://youtu.be/geiLzmUGIYs

http://youtu.be/npJRFu7M1Ks

I don’t have a TWH good enough to put out there at the Celebration in the padded class to ‘prove a point’. I have three pretty nice trail geldings, and one of them doubles as a dressage horse. This is not about my horses. It’s about making a mockery of what CW actually IS, by putting him out there to make a point: A pretty decent, nice minded horse with less than stellar or exemplary walking gaits.

I would add this: If you were going to 'show ‘em how it’s really done!’ wouldn’t you endeavor to take an amazing horse, a horse that best exemplifies the ideal ______ horse? Are you going to take a Derby contender, or a 3K claimer from Penn National?