Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[subk]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6417508]
Either there are going to be BIG plantation numbers to capture the audience attendance OR BIG money for the classes to get the entries…or the shows will just become little local community shows…and the spectators will go to reining shows, barrel racing etc.[/QUOTE]
THAT is extremely useful information and insight. Here is a PR suggestion–even though I’m local and I’m apparently stupid about my surroundings–that might be useful:

Right now there are businesses in the Shelbyville and environs that are in the middle of a quandary. They’ve historically supported the Celebration and they want to support the Celebration, but they are afraid to do it because of possible blow back. They are also afraid of the blow back if they are seen NOT supporting the TWH.

Right now there are TWH shows and classes for non-sored horses that are suffering because they can’t get sponsorship money.

The best business ventures are when a deal solves a problem for both parties.

Someone needs to go do research to identify the local businesses that have a history of supporting the Celebration/Big Lick. Some of those businesses need to be redirected to specifically supporting non sored walking horses. By making non sored classes/shows bigger money classes a business can answer “yes” to the question of whether they support the TWH and the Celebration[B]AND[B/] they can answer “no” to question the do you support the soring of TWHs. If it’s presented intelligently AND sympathetically it has real possibilities. (If you go in a tell someone they are stupid and evil and do this so you won’t be quite as stupid and evil it will not succeed.)

I shouldn’t have to say that the advantages for the “good” TWH people is that not only are they getting support, but it would be diverting money away from the Big Lick.

The time for this stategy is right now. This PR window will not stay open indefinitely and if these sponsors leave most will probably be gone good.

I think someone should also apply this idea to the Tennessee Farmers Co-op. Talk about an organization that needs to move its support from the Big Lick to the non-sored part of the industry. I have no doubt that on a statewide basis and in most (not all) counties across the state the local co-ops get more economic impact from backyard/trail TWH owners than the performance horse industry. Since it’s a co-op it needs to support its members and should be pressured to do so.

[bayou_bengal]

It is just so obvious that Fairfax and subk have an agenda here-- and it has nothing to do stopping the soring or abuse of TWHs, but EVERYTHING to do with trying to derail this thread.

I believe if the Big Lick hegemony over the TWH show world in Tennessee can be dismantled, Tennessee shows and TWH shows in other states will see a great influx of flat shod walking horses entering their classes-- if they offer them. What has happened in Kentucky is a foreshadowing of what will come once the BL is eliminated form all shows.

The BL tail has been allowed to wag the TWH dog too long. Too long has this small but well-financed group been able to get away with soring, abuse and turning a perfectly good sound horse into a parody of itself in the BL classes.

It is past time to show the Big Lickers the gate for good.

[Fairfax]

[QUOTE=bayou_bengal;6417941]
It is just so obvious that Fairfax and subk have an agenda here-- and it has nothing to do stopping the soring or abuse of TWHs, but EVERYTHING to do with trying to derail this thread.

I believe if the Big Lick hegemony over the TWH show world in Tennessee can be dismantled, Tennessee shows and TWH shows in other states will see a great influx of flat shod walking horses entering their classes-- if they offer them. What has happened in Kentucky is a foreshadowing of what will come once the BL is eliminated form all shows.

The BL tail has been allowed to wag the TWH dog too long. Too long has this small but well-financed group been able to get away with soring, abuse and turning a perfectly good sound horse into a parody of itself in the BL classes.

It is past time to show the Big Lickers the gate for good.[/QUOTE]

You are right. I do have an agenda.

I want to preserve horse shows.

You have an agenda and sadly it appears to be all about vendictive retalliation for your lifetime of frustration you claim came about from no appreciation of your plantation horses when compared to the sored big lickers.

If all you want to do is destroy…that is exactly what you will accomplish…but you will also destroy the breed you claim to love and want to preserve.

Flat shod plantation horses have NEVER made a major impact at shows and were always the red haired daughter.

If you want to change that while you remove the financing from big lick then you should read what SBK has suggested AND given you suggestions and contacts.

The walking way could not and did not survive as Flat Shod owners don’t want to spend money and they do not seem to be organized to promote themselves.

They appear to only stand for what they hate.

That is not going to guaranty the survival of the breed. Or its shows.

I did state that more and more show secretaries are saying…we will no long offer ANY TWH classes…we don’t want to be dragged down in their scuffle.

Here is an opportunity for you to stand up, be counted, do some work and get sponsors.

You will NEVER bring down the Celebration. You may change it…and you may cause so much resentment that all of you are smeared with the same brush…or you can alter the celebration and provide a great opportunity to promote your breed.

[subk]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6418032]
If all you want to do is destroy…that is exactly what you will accomplish…[/QUOTE]
Just to mix it up a bit I have to disagree with Fairfax If all you want to do is destroy the BL, the horses, people associated with it, and the business that have sponsored in the past then YOU. WILL. FAIL. We will all fail. This opportunity to make real changes will be lost, just like every other time in past when crazy radicals got so loud and made ridiculous demands that they scared good local people away from the fight. (Hint, hint: Crazy radicals and “outsiders” are not very effective here, of course if you actually knew anything about the area no one would have to tell you this.) TWH shows will continue and trainers will keep using any mean fair or foul to make sure their horse is the one that most resembles the horse with a corncob stuck the farthest up its butt. (You laugh, but this is a tried and true method for ranking a class!)

And frankly if the agenda of this thread is the destruction of everything without concern as to how to keep the good parts? How to have the least amount of economic impact? If it is to have neither empathy nor care for the majority of those whom this industry supports–who are NOT wealthy, not well educated and not well trained to find different jobs to support themselves or their children–then let me suggest you haven’t even begun to see an agenda of thread derailing.

If you have not figured it out yet, I am involved in PR and politics in this state. I’ve been involved in over a dozen state races in the last decade or so and probably half of them in middle Tn. I’ve run PACs and 527s and have done both candidate and issue advocacy. It is my job to understand the demographics and the thinking around here. And it’s my job to figure out how to change a constituency’s collective mind. I’ve done my job well enough that both media and politicians call me for my opinions or advice. bayou_begal do you really think it is either smart or beneficial for this cause for you to try and alienate me so?

This might be a good time to ask: What is it that you want the outcome to be bayou_b? Soring to stop, sure, but what are the realities for horses from the BLers to the TWH backyard trail horse. What do you see happening to all these people you swear are dependent on the industry? What do you want to see happen to The Celebration the business/venue or “The Celebration” the show? If things around here are as you state and we are as dependent on the industry as you say, how do you deal with what you must think will be economic devastation with the loss of the BL? Out of site out of mind? These are very, very serious questions and I am seriously interested in your answers…actually I’m very interested in anyone’s thoughts who’d like to express them. Feel free to PM if you want.

[hurleycane]

Sub K has a point and NWHA is the team that could lead the way on that. They would be a perfect organization to pick up the pieces once the alphabet soup of fractured and violating stacked groups steps aside. And they are a fractured group for sure.

Not sure that the championship need take place in that same location in Tennessee. And I have to ask (forgot to earlier) why would Ohio be so laughable? Isn’t the AQHA running big shows in Ohio?

---

Fairfax - do you know much about NWHA?? Pretty strong organization. http://www.nwha.com/shows.html

FOSH is not strictly a TWH organization - they present and judge all gaited breeds. http://www.fosh.info/show_cal2012.html

and BTW Woot! to Ashley & Elliot!!

[bayou_bengal]

Well SubK- the crazy radicals as you call them sure were VERY effective in getting the Franklin mayor and town council to do a 180 recently on approving a horse-drawn carriage business.

Earlier in the year they were unanimous in wanting to grant at least probationary approval for a carriage livery, then after some petitions, phone calls,emails and a survey that was sponsored by those radical crazies the mayor and council flip-flopped totally and the one council person who was welling to at least allow a trial period this summer couldn’t even get the motion seconded.

Pretty darned good: Crazy radicals: as you frame them, ONE-- Equine activity: ZERO.

I have been pretty clear about what I want— an end to the BL crap that never should have started in the first place. FYI–The “plantation” horse as you called dit WAS the TWH show Horse until all the soring crap started to create an ARTIFICIAL gait that NEVER was the natural gait of the TWH to begin with.

You show your ignorance of breed history with this statement “Flat shod plantation horses have NEVER made a major impact at shows and were always the red haired daughter.”

THAT was only the case AFTER the cheating and fixing and creation of the artificial BL horse happened. All of the early World Grand Champions from Strolling Jim in 1939 on through at least White Star in 1954 showed flat shod and without bell boots or any action devices — They WERE in fact ALL Plantation Horses in that they were shown flat shod and without crap around their pasterns.

Once the BL crap is gone, then those who support the breed will content themselves with the flat shod walkers-- and the big money people will still pay to compete in the World Grand Championship class-- only differnece is the hores will not be wearing stacks, hoofbands, heavy shoes and action devices and flailing and crawling their way around the rig

They will instead be doing the natural flat foot walk, running walk, and canter of the REAL TWH.

THis is all about restoring the proper and true Tennessee Walking Horse to its rightful place that was usurped by those artificial freaks created with pain and abuse to please the big money people because they could get away with it.

Now it looks like they will not be able to so easily get away with their abuse if we go ahead and finish this once and for all by prohibiting all that junk in the show rings htat NEVER should have been allowed in them in the first place.

[bayou_bengal]

[QUOTE=subk;6418278]
If you have not figured it out yet, I am involved in PR and politics in this state. I’ve been involved in over a dozen state races in the last decade or so and probably half of them in middle Tn. I’ve run PACs and 527s and have done both candidate and issue advocacy. It is my job to understand the demographics and the thinking around here. And it’s my job to figure out how to change a constituency’s collective mind. I’ve done my job well enough that both media and politicians call me for my opinions or advice. bayou_begal do you really think it is either smart or beneficial for this cause for you to try and alienate me so?
.[/QUOTE]

People like YOU, who run PACS and those sleazy 527s, are what have ruined our political system to begin with and brought us to the mess we are in now at all levels of politics.

Not only would I not really care about whether I alienated you over the anti-soring and anti-BL fight, but I would like to see PACS, special interests, political pundits and spin doctors removed from the political arena totally – on the national, state and local level.

Really subk, I have no use for the very things you seem to be most proud of being. And no I would NOT like to PM you or even discuss anything with you anywhere at any time.

[Fairfax]

Bay-ou…I am sorry you are such a bitter person. The big name people WILL NOT come for the plantation flat shod classes. They will go elsewhere and that will be fine for the betterment of the breed. HOWEVER, with them, goes the money…sponsorship that THEY have encouraged and developed.,

Subk has made points and all you can do is stamp on them. That person (don’t know if male or female) LIVES THERE…in the hub of things…while you do not and have not. Occasional visit are not the same.

The low blow as to moving Subk’s credentials into a political attack clearly demonstrates to readers that you are a person who will take everyone down in your quest.

My comment about Flat Shod was made with the assumption that any reader would understand it was SINCE BL came into existence. However, since you know your history you will also know the players during the 50’s who started to get their flat shod horses going higher and higher…they did not have the bag of tricks used now…but they were on their way.

It would appear YOU have self appointed yourself to be the judge and jury…always a sign of folly.

Your goal, while very admirable is tainted by your attitude which interestingly enough…is very much like that of the BL trainers.

[subk]

[QUOTE=bayou_bengal;6418502]
People like YOU, who run PACS and those sleazy 527s, are what have ruined our political system to begin with and brought us to the mess we are in now at all levels of politics.

Not only would I not really care about whether I alienated you over the anti-soring and anti-BL fight, but I would like to see PACS, special interests, political pundits and spin doctors removed from the political arena totally – on the national, state and local level.

Really subk, I have no use for the very things you seem to be most proud of being. And no I would NOT like to PM you or even discuss anything with you anywhere at any time.[/QUOTE]
Boy, I certainly hit a nerve!

b_b I don’t particularly care for 527s or PACs either. See, there is something we can agree on. In fact I opposed many of the laws that led to their creation. The difference is I’m a realist and understand that to get things done you have to work within the existing system whether you agree with how it was set up or not.

I find it particularly ironic that b_b doesn’t like PACs and 527s as they and much of our convoluted campaign finance laws are the results of unintended consequences–people not wanting to spend time to think through what the practical results of legislation will be. Today not only do we have citizens like b_b who must think they own no responsibility for the laws and regulation in a republic, we have powerful politicians telling us we need to go ahead and get a bill passed so we can see what’s in that bill! That might play well where you live, but I assure you it doesn’t play well here.

So I will repeat myself. Have you spent even a minute thinking through the possible political mechanisms that could be used to end soring and how that end will affect human lives–many of those the lives of people that are poor by most standards? Or do you just not give a d@mn?

[bird4416]

BayouBengal, Take a deep breath and step away from your computer. You need to chill out and re-read what Subk has written. Y’all are on the same team, the team to end soring of the TWH. Please quit your squabbling. You are starting to sound irrational. Great ideas have been posted here, you need to put aside your emotions and stop taking things as a personal attack.
Now is the opportunity to do something constructive to end soring. Don’t blow it by coming off as a RARA nutjob. Most people discount the ravings of a far off radical but will listen to intelligent fact based discussions.

Your passion is a valuable asset in the fight and I applaud what you are doing.

[hurleycane]

[QUOTE=subk;6418810]
Boy, I certainly hit a nerve!

So I will repeat myself. Have you spent even a minute thinking through the possible political mechanisms that could be used to end soring and how that end will affect human lives–many of those the lives of people that are poor by most standards? Or do you just not give a d@mn?[/QUOTE]

Reducing the stacks and eliminating the chains will not in any way impair their ability to show these horses or bill for board and training which will provide wages etc etc. You will see. Cause I am fairly confident this is what is finally going to come for the TWH.

I am not clear whether you know much of the gaited horses in general so I will say there is a LOT of excitement that these horses and a good rider can generate when moving out fluid and free of encumbrance. And they can do it for more than the 1/2 lap or so that the stacked and chained horse tops out at.

Unlike others, I think the TWH show crowd will thrive without the stacks and chains in the show ring.

Fairfax seems still to be focused and worried about the blow back on ASB. Since ASB meets FEI, I do not think he need worry so - no matter who encourages him to do so.

[WalkInTheWoods]

I agree hurleycane. I dont think the breed will die out when BL ceases. I think it will thrive. It already is in the world of trail riders. For the last ten years or so ive seen ever increasing numbers of SSH, TWH, RMH, MFT and pasos out on the trails in the four different states where i ride. I never thought i would switch from a wtc canter breed until i rode my first SSH and then bought one and dont think i would go back to a stick horse. Trail/obstacle classes are gaining in popularity in the last couple of years. TWH will find its true niche.

[hurleycane]

Yes. ANd what I am saying also is that the same stacked horses (unless completely trained to be so stiff and contorted) CAN actually perform well in gait with less stuff attached.

But they are going to need real riders/trainers to do it cause an unencumberd horse is well - unencumbered! LOL And can really put the moves on you if you know what I mean.

But for sure SOME of the stacked folks (the likes of McConnell) will fail miserably in this transition away from stacks and chains - not to mention humongus shanks.

ANd I am here to tell you a ton of folks who ride and follow (and unfortunately love) the stacked horse, well.,… a lot of them are actually very talented riders. Specially with the TWH and its running walk.

Those folks are not going to leave the show ring just cause the big stack and chain is gone.

[bayou_bengal]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6419383]
Reducing the stacks and eliminating the chains will not in any way impair their ability to show these horses or bill for board and training which will provide wages etc etc. You will see. Cause I am fairly confident this is what is finally going to come for the TWH.

I am not clear whether you know much of the gaited horses in general so I will say there is a LOT of excitement that these horses and a good rider can generate when moving out fluid and free of encumbrance. And they can do it for more than the 1/2 lap or so that the stacked and chained horse tops out at.

Unlike others, I think the TWH show crowd will thrive without the stacks and chains in the show ring.

Fairfax seems still to be focused and worried about the blow back on ASB. Since ASB meets FEI, I do not think he need worry so - no matter who encourages him to do so.[/QUOTE]

I agree hurleycane-- The TWH will endure as a show horse as well as a pleasure horse without the BL. The TWH was a great show horse BEFORE the BL garbage, and it will remain a great show horse after the chains, stacks and other stuff is gone.

In fact, it does take longer in general to perfect a good plantation show horse without soring and gimmicks, so that will actually work to the advantage of the trainers since they will be able to count on having steady clients with healthy horses longer–

The horses will not be as prone to injury as the BL horses are so their show careers will be longer, too. And maybe we will even once again see horses that are able to win more than just one World Grand Championship.

The natural flat shod TWH show horse will be able to attract retain big money backers jsut like the other naturally gaited breeds the Paso Fino, and Peruvian.

[bayou_bengal]

[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6419426]
I agree hurleycane. I dont think the breed will die out when BL ceases. I think it will thrive. It already is in the world of trail riders. For the last ten years or so ive seen ever increasing numbers of SSH, TWH, RMH, MFT and pasos out on the trails in the four different states where i ride. I never thought i would switch from a wtc canter breed until i rode my first SSH and then bought one and dont think i would go back to a stick horse. Trail/obstacle classes are gaining in popularity in the last couple of years. TWH will find its true niche.[/QUOTE]

Well as far back as the 1980s the TWHBEA recognized this niche and created the National Versatility Program, which accepted wins from all-breed and other non-TWH shows toward points for recognition in the versatility horse program.

In order to earn a Supreme Versatility Championship, a horse had to earn points in more than just saddleseat, English pleasure or Western pleasure classes to show that it was a truly versatile horse. Points could be earned for competing in pleasure driving, pole bending, barrel racing, obstacle course, TWH over fences and a few others I can’t recall.

[WalkInTheWoods]

Just to clarify what i meant, there are obstacle shows gaining popularity. Entirely obstacle whether on trails or in a ring.

[bayou_bengal]

Oh-- That sounds like it would be interesting to watch. So theses shows have nothing but calsses with differnet obstacle courses in them?

TWHs are bery trainable and bidable horses, they should be able to learn to to this very well.

[WalkInTheWoods]

Shows, courses, and clinics abound. Here is just the first course i pulled off youtube because i like the music. lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTka4g8vEZ0

Heres a TWH practicing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=M5Oor-2XUas&NR=1

Heres a TWH learning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7AiwKONZaQ

I took my horse to an obstacle course training clinic. He breezed through most of it because he is already a good trail horse. There were so many fun obstacles. One was 2 logs set parallel and in between them was strewn cut up lengths of hose and probably 50 rubber duckies. They called this obstacle Ducks and Snakes. My horse stepped right in and much to my amazement the ducks had intact squeakers !! LOL i watched his ears, they didnt even twitch. There were water obstacles, taking a crinkly piece of plastic out of a mailbox, riding thru tarps hung from on overhead beam, walking past a baby carriage containing a motion activated baby doll, on and on. All in all there were about 20 things to go thru. This was a training course and there were helpers on hand if anyone had a horse refusing to do things. Its all about trust and partnership. The helpers worked with the people more than the horses. Its all about communication and trust. The people who didnt have a good bond with their horses stuck out and they were the ones who got all the help. It was interesting watching the people learn what they were doing that was causing disconnection. But they did learn ! (most of them)

had to add this verstaile TWH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=XMa-9rVTRkA

[aarpaso]

Now lets open this and in doing so think about what can replace that BL(preformance class)

http://www.twhbea.com/News/ExtremeCowboy0514.php

and notice what sign hands on the fence. the Celebration will not be out $$$$$,if they would only step away from Godfather Mullins and that Shelbyville Mafia.

they could get folks like Craig and others,to bring a better name to the area.

have a class for the local Therapeutic Riding center.

have a driving classes for gents and ladies.

natural way of going not that painful looking dog butt draging gait.

[aarpaso]

[B] heres another

[/B]http://www.twhbea.com/News/12ExtremeCowboy.php

twhbea KNOWS