[QUOTE=hurleycane;6485165]
The info on Judge Mattice is incrediblle.
Preacher man: More than anyone else involved in this - I really want this to happen in your lifetime. You and your family really stood up when there was little to no support for it. History will remember you kindly and with high honor. I am sure of it.[/QUOTE]
Hurley, for whatever he’s done for horses, he’s a wife beater. Many a time Jenny has shown in full clown makeup to cover the marks.
and the riding of two year olds under saddle.
if you like horse racing, or any number of breed shows or competitions or breed evaluations…(including showing and evaluating 3 YOs under saddle)…fair warning.
Banning working 2 yr olds of any breed that strenuously doesnt bother me a bit. I have always thought it was wrong. I have to admit i rode my horse as a 2 yr old about 15 times for under a half hour each time. That was eight years ago. I dont think i hurt him - we mostly just walked in the woods. He gaited a tiny bit and cantered slowly up a couple hills but just walked 98% of the time.
But the honing a 2 yr old goes thru to get them ready for the ring or the race track is a bit much. It all depends on how heavy a rider is and if the horse is ridden into the dirt.
If i had it to do over, i may still have ridden him lightly at that age.
But the breeders who want to break them young, work them hard, get them showing or racing just to peddle them often are not the ones who have to deal with the problems that develop. Nor do they seem to care. JMO
Today’s Chattanoogan:
Horrible Court Outcomes For John Mays - Cruelty To Horses - And Richard Batson - Foster Child Rape
Tuesday, August 07, 2012
One gets off writing a newspaper article about soring? The other gets probation? No wonder the world is so messed up.
Those horse abuse videos make me ill and I cannot imagine such torture. A 16-year-old child preyed upon by her foster parent and coerced into a threesome with a neighbor? How much more deviant and sordid does it have to be?
Child abusers and animal abusers are the lowest life form on the planet, and should not be unleashed upon society. The law bungled these two sentences to the max. Unbelievable. Horrible.
Veronica Madaris
[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6485683]
Banning working 2 yr olds of any breed that strenuously doesnt bother me a bit. I have always thought it was wrong. I have to admit i rode my horse as a 2 yr old about 15 times for under a half hour each time. That was eight years ago. I dont think i hurt him - we mostly just walked in the woods. He gaited a tiny bit and cantered slowly up a couple hills but just walked 98% of the time.
But the honing a 2 yr old goes thru to get them ready for the ring or the race track is a bit much. It all depends on how heavy a rider is and if the horse is ridden into the dirt.
If i had it to do over, i may still have ridden him lightly at that age.
But the breeders who want to break them young, work them hard, get them showing or racing just to peddle them often are not the ones who have to deal with the problems that develop. Nor do they seem to care. JMO[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=walknsound;6485842]Today’s Chattanoogan:
Horrible Court Outcomes For John Mays - Cruelty To Horses - And Richard Batson - Foster Child Rape
Tuesday, August 07, 2012
One gets off writing a newspaper article about soring? The other gets probation? No wonder the world is so messed up.
Those horse abuse videos make me ill and I cannot imagine such torture. A 16-year-old child preyed upon by her foster parent and coerced into a threesome with a neighbor? How much more deviant and sordid does it have to be?
Child abusers and animal abusers are the lowest life form on the planet, and should not be unleashed upon society. The law bungled these two sentences to the max. Unbelievable. Horrible.
Veronica Madaris[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=katarine;6485433]and the riding of two year olds under saddle.
if you like horse racing, or any number of breed shows or competitions or breed evaluations…(including showing and evaluating 3 YOs under saddle)…fair warning.[/QUOTE]
The HSUS, remember, is nor for the animals themselves, but trying to eliminate all uses of animals, one at the time.
They don’t want resolutions, they want the controversies and exposing the abuses to get the general public to see owning animals as unsavory and cruel by all and any that own them.
They are slowly making second citizens of anyone having anything to do with animals, that is their goal.
We need to be careful who we align with, as their goals may not always be ours in VERY important ways.:no:
As for riding two year olds, most anyone can tell you that a blanket statement against that is absurd, too many studies and any old timer can tell you that horses started early in their path to be whatever they will be when adults are better at it and stay more sound mentally and physically than those started later.
You would not keep kids by themselves playing unsupervised and not taught anything until they are in their late teens and mature?
You would expect any animal, including humans and horses, to learn about the world around them and what their lives will be from the time they are able to.
I think what some don’t want is any abuses while that handling and riding is happening.
I have handled too many horses over their lifetime and can definitely say those started very early and properly lived sound and heathy lives, just as good and probably better suited for their lives than those started later.
I have right now a 15 year old, started as a four year old in a ranch, that still has his moments, is watchy and will only trust the world around him so far, something you don’t find in horses started very early and right, that consider the world their oyster.
He is also not as soft and athletic as a horse started younger, just as a gymnast or basket ball player that starts training in his late teens/early twenties would not be competitive with one that started learning the right motor memory and game plan when a kid.
Always remember, whatever you do with horses, it is not when you do it, but HOW you do it that will make what you do right, or wrong.
That 15 year old had a late start in life, but if he had been handled right, knowing that he was behind already, he would not still at 15 and, being fairly bombproof otherwise, still have his bad, scared of the world moments and less than graceful performances.
He is harder on his body because doing what he does was not taught to him well and early, but manhandled into doing it without those important years of the right preparation for it, that he is finally learning now.
When we hear any statement, like “starting two year olds is too early”, we really owe it to our horses to study this carefully and listen to all sides, consider that there is so much more out there than a blanket statement can determine is right or wrong, because “it depends” comes into play.
I do think it is shameful that the abusers are not being hung up to dry, put in jail for a while, fined out of their pants.
I am not sure it is because we need more laws and regulations, or because the ones enforcing them are lacking.
I definitely will say, be careful what more rules and regulations we ask for and where those ideas come from, because not all playing this game are quite honest with what they want out of this::eek:
HSUS Criticized For Minimal Donations To Pet Shelters
Aug. 8, 2012 2:40am by Amanda Radke in BEEF Daily
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Full-page ad blasts the Humane Society of the U.S. (HSUS) for paltry donations to America’s pet shelters.
If you want to line your pockets, go work for the Humane Society of the U.S. (HSUS). But, if you want to help animals, you might want to seek work elsewhere. A watchdog group, Humane Watch, recently released a full-page ad in USA Today blasting HSUS for its minimal effort to support hands-on pet shelters.
HumaneWatch, a project of the nonprofit Center for Consumer Freedom, used the advertisement to warn Americans that only a tiny fraction of their contributions to HSUS actually goes to pet shelters.
With a multi-million-dollar budget, less than 1% of it actually goes to helping animal shelters. In my home state of South Dakota, for example, only $15,000 was given to help local shelters, leaving many, including one shelter in Sioux Falls, our largest city, barely able to scrape together enough money to keep its doors open.
“Despite most Americans’ belief to the contrary, HSUS is not a national umbrella group that represents community-based humane societies, and it shares just 1% of its income with underfunded pet shelters at the local level,” says Humane Watch.
“The ad features a statement from HSUS President Wayne Pacelle: ‘We never said we funded animal shelters.’ Yet the animal rights group continues to largely rely on the images of sad-looking cats and dogs to tug at the heartstrings and, most importantly, to HSUS, the wallets of America’s pet lovers. The ad goes on to explain where HSUS’s money is going: Millions into its executive pension fund, $32 million stuffed in hedge funds, and for its defense against charges of corruption in federal court.
“A new HumaneWatch study finds HSUS’s direct mail, telemarketing, and television appeals actively perpetuate the misperception that HSUS’s primary focus is to care for abandoned and abused cats and dogs. However, HSUS doesn’t run a single pet shelter and local shelters aren’t seeing much of HSUS’s donations, with several local organizations across America going so far as to change their names in order to prevent donor confusion.”
Do you think most Americans are aware of how HSUS uses its money? How many people do you know who have unknowingly donated to HSUS because they want to help animals?
By the way, if you are in Fayetteville, AR, on Aug. 9, join me at a University of Arkansas symposium sponsored by the Center for Food Animal Wellbeing, for a discussion on food animal welfare. I will be one of the speakers featured at the symposium, and I would love to visit with you at the event."—
Of course there is grey area in the issue of riding 2 yr olds. I read a study that it is indeed good to start using a 2 yr old in the way it will be used. What i object to is the honing it takes to get a 2 yr old show ring or race ready. And of course the the starter packages of increasingly tall stacks that are put on TWH yearlings.
Harness horses who do not carry weight on their backs kind of fall into the grey area although if i owned one, i would break and train it as a 2 yr old and not race til it was 3. That would mean missing out on all the stake races for 2 yr olds. Most people just wont sacrifice a yr of making money off a baby horse. There is a movement towards eliminating racing 2 yr olds. HSUS didnt make up the concept.
Bluey i hear you and respect your thoughts on this. I just wish the idiots within the TWH industry would have cleaned up their own mess. Since the haven’t and won’t i appreciate all that the HSUS, under Keith Dane’s leadership has done. Ditto to the government on this particular issue.
I am not ready to get in bed with HSUS but i will take a little nap with them until the existence of Big Lick is eradicated. I still have not ever sent them one dollar and warn others of their agenda.
[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6485985]
Of course there is grey area in the issue of riding 2 yr olds. I read a study that it is indeed good to start using a 2 yr old in the way it will be used. What i object to is the honing it takes to get a 2 yr old show ring or race ready. And of course the the starter packages of increasingly tall stacks that are put on TWH yearlings.
Harness horses who do not carry weight on their backs kind of fall into the grey area although if i owned one, i would break and train it as a 2 yr old and not race til it was 3. That would mean missing out on all the stake races for 2 yr olds. Most people just wont sacrifice a yr of making money off a baby horse. There is a movement towards eliminating racing 2 yr olds. HSUS didnt make up the concept.
Bluey i hear you and respect your thoughts on this. I just wish the idiots within the TWH industry would have cleaned up their own mess. Since the haven’t and won’t i appreciate all that the HSUS, under Keith Dane’s leadership has done. Ditto to the government on this particular issue.
I am not ready to get in bed with HSUS but i will take a little nap with them until the existence of Big Lick is eradicated. I still have not ever sent them one dollar and warn others of their agenda.[/QUOTE]
I do respect everyone’s opinions, but may not always agree with them.
That said, I will always think it is absurd to put “stacks” on a horse’s feet.:eek:
I will respect your right to do so if that is what you want to do, regardless of my opinion.:yes:
As for “race colts being run early”, when we were training, some we ran as twos, some we waited to start them later.
It depends on how each horse is training, not what the calendar may say.
You don’t just run a horse in an unsuitable race if you want to stay in business.
as i have read these opinions of starting or riding a 2 yr old i can’t help but think of Colonel Louis Podhajsky,the beautiful Lipizzanners of the Spanish Riding School,their training does not begin until they are late 3 or early 4 yrs old and then its always just ground work this is done for a yr,basic movements,extensions,all on longe and long rein,the trainer walking behind. it is not until they have learned all of these things and to change them on voice command is the horse mounted at that time this STALLION could be 5 to 6 yrs old.than and only than does the light contact work begin, with NO effort on collection,on straight lines and on large circles at the end of a yr he will begin the more advanced work. so if my math is correct these horses are not worked hard until 6/7 yrs.
So should we question our training method.maybe at least give it some thought.
[QUOTE=ChocoMare;6486904]
Yes. Especially after reading The Ranger Article.
Let the spine finish![/QUOTE]
That is like waiting to start a tennis, golf, gymnast, basket ball player when they are 21, when they will be about physically mature.
Just because we finally mature at certain ages, humans early 20’s, horses 7-8 years old, doesn’t mean we have to sit on our hands before that.:eek:
No one organism does, would not make sense not to use your body from the time you can to do it’s best, especially as it is maturing into the purposed task.
Do you see, say, a lion cub waiting to learn to hunt until it is an adult?
No where did I say “sit on our hands,” nor did I say don’t ride until they’re 5. Driving, ground manners, loading, clipping, voice commands, desensitizing, bridling, saddling, lunging, initial backing, a few light rides, etc. etc. etc. all can be done through their 4th year and then move on to bigger/better, longer/harder later.
[QUOTE=ChocoMare;6486977]
No where did I say “sit on our hands,” nor did I say don’t ride until they’re 5. Driving, ground manners, loading, clipping, voice commands, desensitizing, bridling, saddling, lunging, initial backing, a few light rides, etc. etc. etc. all can be done through their 4th year and then move on to bigger/better, longer/harder later.[/QUOTE]
That is true and works well today for some we do with horses.
Is the way I learned to do it in Europe many years ago and was right for those horses, that kind of use we made of them.
I thought it was wonderful when, once in the USA, I got to work with horses that had been started early, how much easier it was to work with them, how much better they were all around mentally and physically, as they had matured already into their jobs.
Many OTTBs made excellent jumpers because they had already learned to go forward and work hard.
The new western horses, not started at 4-5 from wild and wooly and done by 10, as the old ranchers did, but as twos and worked with lightly until at 4-5 finally asked to do more, a tremendous difference in them as how well and long they worked.
Then, there have always been some that worked with their colts earlier, if they had time.
All I say is that there are good reasons for what we do sometimes.
When we start a colt, depending on the colt and how we go about it, as you say, is not that cut and dried.:yes:
As long as money, ribbons, honors, points, trophies, purses, breeders awards, various perks, keys to vacations homes, etc are offered for the riding of 2 yr olds there will be those who will push an animal beyond reasonable training and exercise. I am not against introducing a young horse to what will be its career, but i would love to see the showing and racing of ridden 2 yr olds be abolished.
I saw the damage that racing 2 yr olds can do at the harness tracks also. I started taking care of a 3 yr old stallion who was a son of the popular Bye Bye Byrd - one of the premier stallions of the day. He was a colt who should NOT have been started as a 2 yr old. They even injected his hocks as a 2 yr old. He was ruined. I would stand him in ice boots to ease the pain as i sat in front of the stall and he would drop his head in my lap. He was being iced just to try to get him sound enough to peddle at the Harrisburg sale. I cried a lot of tears over that beautiful boy. So unnecessary. Had i been rich i would have bought him and tried to rehab him or more likeky just end his pain. Does anyone have access to USTA yearbooks ? His name was Jerobe’s Byrd and i doubt that he ever raced again after the sale. This would have been in the late sixties or early seventies.
I was working for one of the top trainer/drivers in the country, but it was one of his second trainers (also a driver) who made some bad decisions about this horse. The owners of this horse were very rich and had a lovely vacation home on the ocean. The second trainer kept this poor horse racing so he could have use of that vacation home.
When the trainer came to town circuit week and saw the condition my horse was in he ordered that exercise and racing stop and the horse be put in a sale. The second trainer was soon let go. Not soon enough for Jerobe’s Byrd though.
Since people can do whatever they wish to their own property on their own property, some will push 2 yr olds beyond what is healthy for them in the long run. But the public arena is where i would like to see the riding of 2 yr olds be abolished because of all the aforementioned reasons in paragraph one that drive people to go to extremes. JMO
[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6487180]
As long as money, ribbons, honors, points, trophies, purses, breeders awards, various perks, keys to vacations homes, etc are offered for the riding of 2 yr olds there will be those who will push an animal beyond reasonable training and exercise. I am not against introducing a young horse to what will be its career, but i would love to see the showing and racing of ridden 2 yr olds be abolished.
I saw the damage that racing 2 yr olds can do at the harness tracks also. I started taking care of a 3 yr old stallion who was a son of the popular Bye Bye Byrd - one of the premier stallions of the day. He was a colt who should NOT have been started as a 2 yr old. They even injected his hocks as a 2 yr old. He was ruined. I would stand him in ice boots to ease the pain as i sat in front of the stall and he would drop his head in my lap. He was being iced just to try to get him sound enough to peddle at the Harrisburg sale. I cried a lot of tears over that beautiful boy. So unnecessary. Had i been rich i would have bought him and tried to rehab him or more likeky just end his pain. Does anyone have access to USTA yearbooks ? His name was Jerobe’s Byrd and i doubt that he ever raced again after the sale. This would have been in the late sixties or early seventies.
I was working for one of the top trainer/drivers in the country, but it was one of his second trainers (also a driver) who made some bad decisions about this horse. The owners of this horse were very rich and had a lovely vacation home on the ocean. The second trainer kept this poor horse racing so he could have use of that vacation home.
When the trainer came to town circuit week and saw the condition my horse was in he ordered that exercise and racing stop and the horse be put in a sale. The second trainer was soon let go. Not soon enough for Jerobe’s Byrd though.
Since people can do whatever they wish to their own property on their own property, some will push 2 yr olds beyond what is healthy for them in the long run. But the public arena is where i would like to see the riding of 2 yr olds be abolished because of all the aforementioned reasons in paragraph one that drive people to go to extremes. JMO[/QUOTE]
We put blame where blame is due.
Just because you knew one two year old that was mismanaged by a bad trainer and situation, that doesn’t mean it is because it was a two year old in that situation, but because that was a bad trainer and situation.:no:
Cause and effect don’t add in your story.
If you want to blame someone, blame the bad management, not that he was started as a two year old, because that same could have happened if he was older.
Youre right, thats just one story. I experienced a lot more but dont want to clog this thread about TWH up with all that. There are the other trainers who decided not to train certain 2 yr olds but rather give them more time to grow. And trainers who backed off at the first sign of a problem and gave the horse some pasture rest.
Im talking harness horses here. The point is, in times of need (economy, pushy owner, trainer needing that training income coming in, etc) there are those who will push a horse beyond its limits. And i dont think its good horsemanship to ask a 2 yr old to give its all. There are those horses with such big hearts that they will race over pain and hurt themselves. They get in a zone. I will never think its OK to ask that of a 2 yr old. Ive seen lightly raced stakes 2 yr olds come out of the season okay, and ive seen many develop problems that is now part of them. Kinda like flipping a coin, maybe the horse wont be harmed, maybe it will. I dont like those odds.
This is what they are trying to stop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y
And as an old race tracker I’ve always hated running two year olds. Even the stress on most 3 year olds is too much, but it takes $$$ to keep a baby around for another year so I dont’ see it happening there soon. The young horses of the past were a different animal. More hardy and less specialized. Besides, do any of the twh riders look like they could make a jockey’s weight?
I’ve heard all the arguements but still have my own opinion.
i don’t think i have ever seen jockey weight in an adult class of Tn walkers,alot of very large framed gooseneckin men and many many wide butted females. some lite riders but very very few.
I hate to see a 2 y/o ridden by some man, or a big butted mama. Their bones are not fused yet. Radiographs would show if their bones are fused or not, but the Lickers aren’t gonna pay for that. They simply don’t care.
The same old horse argument, MY property I can do whatever I want, HSUS is the devil and want take all our animals away. Sound familiar? Look at gun ownership, one stinking restricting law will send NRA people to rabid frothing at the mouth, “they wanna take our guns away, waaahhhh!” Total BS. ( I am a gun owner BTW.)
Propaganda! All of it! Sad thing, people believe it.
I’ve had 2 year olds in professional training working HARD. However they were big and the trainer was a sprite. I am a sprite. Fortunately the one I still own is completely sound and clean legged at 14 years. Merely backing a 2 year is not the issue nor has it ever been. Hard training at 2 is just plain bad, ignorant, greedy, taking a short cut, horse husbandry. No two ways about it.
Stop Big Lick!
[QUOTE=sunridge1;6487881]
The same old horse argument, MY property I can do whatever I want, HSUS is the devil and want take all our animals away. Sound familiar? Look at gun ownership, one stinking restricting law will send NRA people to rabid frothing at the mouth, “they wanna take our guns away, waaahhhh!” Total BS. ( I am a gun owner BTW.)
Propaganda! All of it! Sad thing, people believe it.
I’ve had 2 year olds in professional training working HARD. However they were big and the trainer was a sprite. I am a sprite. Fortunately the one I still own is completely sound and clean legged at 14 years. Merely backing a 2 year is not the issue nor has it ever been. Hard training at 2 is just plain bad, ignorant, greedy, taking a short cut, horse husbandry. No two ways about it.
Stop Big Lick![/QUOTE]
You may have missed that they want to wholesale ban riding 2 year olds, not just how they may be ridden.
If you believe or not quite what the HSUS is doing to eliminate animal use, just remember, if you are wrong, you will be one more loser right along with everyone else.
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