Terranova-Lauren Nicholson what happened?

[Ajierene]

@Kirikou

In other parts of the world, systems tend to be more merit-based. There, a talented young rider can compete for a spot on junior or young rider squads, etc and receive government or lottery funding to learn, train, and establish themselves. Of course, the money still has to come from somewhere, but it feels less like you need to schmooze the right wealthy lady who also happens to sponsor the show you’re entering…

I feel like this is a bit of halo effect thinking. At some point, you have to specialize. No international show jumper is also Eventing and doing Dressage and any other discipline at the same level. I have known US riders to go to smaller jumper or dressage shows as practice but likely they are going to bring that horse to an event since it is easier to just do one or two phases with that horse, and whatever with the rest of the horses - all at one place instead of trucking one horse to another show.

Also, the US has Western riding, which is something Europe and most of the rest of the world does not have. They are very different ways of going and it would be very difficult for a top Western horse to do well in the English world and visa versa. The US breeds DO have all around champions - Appaloosa, QH, Paint - these horses go English and Western to win All Around.

Most people I know that focus on one discipline “play around” with others, whether it’s jumping their dressage horse once in a while or going to a local show outside their discipline. I do live in an area that is more similar to Europe in proximity to show venues big and small. If you are out west, people really have to decide it they want to trailer their horse 5 hours (or more…much more) to one show or another and will obviously choose the one that is in their discipline focus so you are less likely to see them out elsewhere.

There is a lot more cross discipline interest in the US than I think people realize.

I also don’t think other systems are more merit based so much as they have more government money but the people that can pay the initial fee to get infront of the government (through going to the big shows) are still going to be the ones getting the money. The government isn’t out in the boondocks pulling some diamond in the rough out of the backwoods of Scotland to ride for the UK.

[OverandOnward]

No idea where this fits in the current conversation …

At the Kentucky 5* event now in progress, the show jumping has two former eventers, Doug Payne and Marilyn Little. There may be others I don’t follow. As is well known, Little went from SJ to EV to SJ.

[Kirikou]

@Ajierene

I feel like this is a bit of halo effect thinking. At some point, you have to specialize. No international show jumper is also Eventing and doing Dressage and any other discipline at the same level. I have known US riders to go to smaller jumper or dressage shows as practice but likely they are going to bring that horse to an event since it is easier to just do one or two phases with that horse, and whatever with the rest of the horses - all at one place instead of trucking one horse to another show.

Also, the US has Western riding, which is something Europe and most of the rest of the world does not have. They are very different ways of going and it would be very difficult for a top Western horse to do well in the English world and visa versa. The US breeds DO have all around champions - Appaloosa, QH, Paint - these horses go English and Western to win All Around.

Most people I know that focus on one discipline “play around” with others, whether it’s jumping their dressage horse once in a while or going to a local show outside their discipline. I do live in an area that is more similar to Europe in proximity to show venues big and small. If you are out west, people really have to decide it they want to trailer their horse 5 hours (or more…much more) to one show or another and will obviously choose the one that is in their discipline focus so you are less likely to see them out elsewhere.

There is a lot more cross discipline interest in the US than I think people realize.

I also don’t think other systems are more merit based so much as they have more government money but the people that can pay the initial fee to get infront of the government (through going to the big shows) are still going to be the ones getting the money. The government isn’t out in the boondocks pulling some diamond in the rough out of the backwoods of Scotland to ride for the UK.

Erh, not sure how this connects to my post? Unless, you’re referring to my comment about disciplines being siloed?

That said, my main point wasn’t really about whether top-level riders should be doing multiple disciplines - but more about how riders get to those top levels in the first place. In my experience (both here and abroad), the pathways can feel very different. In some countries, there’s more infrastructure for identifying and supporting talented young riders through things like national squads, lottery-funded sport programs, or government-backed training. You’re right that it’s not a perfect meritocracy - there are always barriers - but there seems to be a more formalized structure, with less reliance on private sponsors or personal networks. (and I was a working-class kid with no connections from the “backwoods” of rural France who certainly benefited from such programs - and did juniors/young riders in distance-riding as a result of such programs).

In contrast, in the US it often feels like success still hinges quite heavily on knowing (and being supported by) the right people with access and money. That’s not to say talent doesn’t matter - it obviously does - but the route to visibility and support seems less institutional and more “social”.

So I suppose I wasn’t arguing that other systems are perfect, just that the shape of the opportunity looks really different, and that can be surprising depending on where you’re coming from.

[MHM]

@Ajierene

No international show jumper is also Eventing

What about Michael Jung?

[SnortyPants]

@MHM

@Ajierene

No international show jumper is also Eventing

What about Michael Jung?

Yeah I think there have been enough example at all disciplines that show that riders can succeed at top levels, across disciplines, but the horses can’t.

The conversation about siloing and breed specialization, while fascinating and worthy, isn’t super relevant to the original topic, but the concentration of wealth into a few circuits/people/regions, etc certainly is.

[Willesdon]

Michael King, Ingrid Klimke, Mark Todd immediately come to mind as riders who have crossed disciplines at the highest level. I’m sure there are more. Mark Todd did both Eventing and showjumping in the same Olympic Games.

Horses in the UK often do cross discipline training so in the winter the eventers annoy the dressage people by frequently winning in “pure dressage” and show jumping or showing people may take their horses out foxhunting a few times to freshen them up. Dressage has the most specialist mind set and even then will sometimes pop a jump or two. Most riders hack out regularly because it is good for the horses.

It is fairly common to see ads for horses saying “wants to be a show jumper” or “prefers dressage”. Often the specialisation occurs later in the life of the horse as variation is seen as part of the foundation work of training.

@Ajierene UK riders only receive lottery funding once they have achieved a high level of performance and are on the path towards the Olympics. The attitude of the Government is that if you want to ride or own or breed horses that is entirely your own silly fault. If equestrian sport fell out of the Olympics the UK Lottery funding would probably stop. The horse in the rest of Europe, importantly including Ireland, is considered to be an “agricultural animal”, just like cows and sheep, so worthy of Government interest.

[jvanrens]

@Ajierene

Also, the US has Western riding, which is something Europe and most of the rest of the world does not have. They are very different ways of going and it would be very difficult for a top Western horse to do well in the English world and visa versa. The US breeds DO have all around champions - Appaloosa, QH, Paint - these horses go English and Western to win All Around.

Really?

https://www.aqha.com/international-affiliates

[Equibrit]

@Ajierene

The government isn’t out in the boondocks pulling some diamond in the rough out of the backwoods of Scotland to ride for the UK.

No - their federations are out talent spotting in the junior classes.

[OverandOnward]

@Ajierene

it would be very difficult for a top Western horse to do well in the English world and visa versa. The US breeds DO have all around champions - Appaloosa, QH, Paint - these horses go English and Western to win All Around.

Yes but … the “English” riding that gets awards from judges isn’t “English” at all. It’s primarily a Western way of going and frame, tweaked slightly, but looks like nothing h/j/e.

Even the “English” saddle being used, bought from Western tack purveyors, isn’t designed the same way as standard h/j/e saddles. It doesn’t give the rider or the horse a proper h/j/e balance.

I’m in a place where every once in a while a Western rider, one who doesn’t already know better, thinks they can turn up at an “English” h/e show and their horse will place well or win in h/e classes, because that’s what happens in the Western show - English class. They can’t even frame the horse up well enough to show what the h/e judges are looking for.

The point being that the silo is real, even for Western ‘all around’. The so-called “English” portion isn’t that, at all.

[Ghazzu]

The AQHA version of HUS is painful to watch.

[Texarkana]

A few years ago there was a thread here (I think) about an eventer who was trying to take their horses and students to local h/j schooling shows for exposure. She couldn’t figure out what they needed to do differently to get pinned in a class.

That’s what makes it so remarkable when someone like Will Coleman can enter a hunter derby with an eventer and win.

The fact that the US easily has 10x more distinct “disciplines” than other countries with active equestrian scenes should be the first clue how divisive we are. A big lick TWH rider and a dressage rider have nothing in common, despite the fact that they are both English disciplines shown on the flat judged on the horse’s movement and response to the rider’s aids.

[OverandOnward]

To me, at the eventing LL’s, the reason to take a horse(s) to an h/j/e schooling show is to practice the courses in a show environment. With no expectations of ribbons. The easy hunter courses can be ideal for early-experience humans as well. But no way would I pay for a full-on USHJA show, just for that.

If one knows enough about hunter judging to make a couple of tweaks in your round to pick up a ribbon, by all means. Make the ‘real’ hunter showers hate you for bumping some of them out of the ribbons! [just kidding!]

[Montanas_Girl]

@Texarkana

A few years ago there was a thread here (I think) about an eventer who was trying to take their horses and students to local h/j schooling shows for exposure. She couldn’t figure out what they needed to do differently to get pinned in a class.

Are you remembering the trainwreck threads about a show that I judged? The OP first posted on the hunter/jumper forum, then, when I showed up there and commented that I had judged the show and would be happy to answer her questions, she moved over here and opened another thread, continuing to moan about how “unfair” the show was…The “best” complaint being how unreasonable I was for excusing one of her students whose horse bolted uncontrollably in a huge walk/trot class and couldn’t be stopped even after all the other horses in the class had halted.

That was a long time ago. More than 10 years - maybe even 15. But it was a doozy! lol

[Texarkana]

@Montanas_Girl

@Texarkana

A few years ago there was a thread here (I think) about an eventer who was trying to take their horses and students to local h/j schooling shows for exposure. She couldn’t figure out what they needed to do differently to get pinned in a class.

Are you remembering the trainwreck threads about a show that I judged? The OP first posted on the hunter/jumper forum, then, when I showed up there and commented that I had judged the show and would be happy to answer her questions, she moved over here and opened another thread, continuing to moan about how “unfair” the show was…The “best” complaint being how unreasonable I was for excusing one of her students whose horse bolted uncontrollably in a huge walk/trot class and couldn’t be stopped even after all the other horses in the class had halted.

That was a long time ago. More than 10 years - maybe even 15. But it was a doozy! lol

Maybe? I don’t think I followed the whole train wreck, so I really have no idea!

[MHM]

I believe there are some eventers who will take some horses to shows to do jumper classes just to get some more mileage in the jumper ring. But that should not be too big an adjustment, I would think.

I did have to chuckle at one who made a comment about how he would never canter down to the bigger jumps in the Grand Prix class. Which made me laugh just because I felt like asking, do you not realize that those bigger jumps in the show ring will fall down? That seems much less scary to me than galloping out across country over jumps that are smaller but much more solid.

[enjoytheride]

A lot of event riders show in straight show jumping especially over the winter. Boyd is at WEC frequently. There aren’t always a ton of schooling shows, the eventers are often with HJ coaches, and the footing at the A shows plus the way they are run can be much better. Plus I think if you’re an upper level eventer a rated HJ show is probably pretty comparable cost wise except you get to jump several times a day and not just once!

Eventers are historically weak in show jumping and riding with a SJ coach and showing in HJ shows is a way to improve. There were eventers last year in the Friday night class at Kentucky and several in the Saturday classes, some having ridden several horses around XC that day.

I’ve never had anyone at a HJ show hate me for getting a ribbon! They might get annoyed at someone who doesn’t understand that HJ shows run differently. Someone I know had a horse that was not making it as a eventer and she took him to WEC, showed in in the 2’ 6" and 3 foot classes in her monoflap, and sold him 2 weeks later. His transformation to a hunter was instantaneous. Lovely horse.

[OverandOnward]

@enjoytheride

I’ve never had anyone at a HJ show hate me for getting a ribbon!

Hope it is understood that the remark was tongue-in-cheek, not literal. I’ll edit the post to make that clear.

[Baybear]

No other former eventers that I know of unless some of the Irish riders evented in their pre-showjumping days. Good list of SJ riders though so should be fun to watch.

[quietann]

I think I missed that one. It sounds epic!

[Frolic]

@Baybear

No other former eventers that I know of unless some of the Irish riders evented in their pre-showjumping days. Good list of SJ riders though so should be fun to watch.

Brian Cournane as well, I believe