That "Eclectic Horseman" magazine and whatnot

[mvp]

^^^

Point taken about riding with someone in person.

I think Brannaman won’t be back here for 2 years, but I’d like to call up the local pro who brought him here. Oh, yeah, and the guy you, Fillabeana, PMed me about. I just found that message.

This thread and a bad ride I gave the untalented, post-legged horse I’m working with yesterday have convinced me that I need to get some live help.

See, I think I have made this little horse too dead to my leg and I’m worried that I’ve begun to make him a hand-ridden POS. Or rather, he’s much lighter and more educated to my hand than my leg. (Also, he’s just at the end of a physical plateau and I’m asking him for things that require more strength (or something) from his hind end.)

The upshot is that I’m “getting mad at him” with my leg. That’s wrong and me be uneducated. I know how to never have to do that with my hand… so WTF with my leg? And I’m probably asking him to move his hiney or shoulder over at the wrong moment. That description of the upper-level dressager with the whip and spurs and big bit stood out. There has to be a smarter, more humane solution.

This is a kinesthetic thing. I need some theory about the “how, in general, do you vaquero types make them as light to your leg as to your hand?” My suspicion is that I have to look for and reward contrast, not a big move away from my leg. (Sorry, not explained well.)

In addition to the philosophizing, it’s also a physical skill thing requiring timing and feel. I’m going to have to let someone see the best I can do and help me improve upon that.

[Fillabeana]

He’ll probably be in Bend next year.
And the local pro who brought Buck, will likely give you the same contact I did

There has to be a smarter, more humane solution. And I’m probably asking him to move his hiney or shoulder over at the wrong moment.

Yeah, likely the case.
But I have another story for you, if you can stand it. My guy rides my TB with spurs. I asked him if I should, too. My guy said no, you’d just P!$$ him off. (OK, file that.)
So in the 2012 clinic, Buck is addressing the AM clinic, I am walking to the porta-potty and Buck says, “A little squeeze is NOT a feel. A little kick is NOT a feel.” That stopped me in my tracks, literally.
And then, an hour later, I went to my friend (the above contact) and said, “That’s why you told me not to ride my horse in spurs.” (Big smile. Yup.)

We tend to ride, using our legs, by digging a heel in with a little squeeze, without first offering a SIGNAL to the horse, first. Even worse, are the riders whose heels go squish, squish, squish against the horse’s side as they trot.

Anyway, you have to educate the horse to your leg: gesture with it. And THEN, if the horse ignores it, thump him a big one. And always offer the gesture first, and insist the horse respond to the gesture, never to any squeezing or kicking. Always using exactly how much ‘squeeze’ you think it will take to get the horse to move, will make the horse more and more dull to your leg.
Like Buck was saying…offer A…come in with B. Don’t increase a little bit until it happens. Offer a good deal…and then go in and get a hold and do what it takes to make it happen.

And of course, if you’re asking the horse to move the wrong leg at the wrong time, he is right to ignore you, so that might be part of it, too.

little un-talented horse I’m working with

There are a lot of horses that don’t offer you anything really athletic. We think of them as un-talented. But I’d bet you’d be surprised if you got your timing great, and could ride him on a feel.

I never thought my leggy, leggy TB would be able to move like a Smart-Kitty-Playboon, either. He was absolutely FULL of baloney last spring moving cattle, and my mentor/helper rode him, and used all that life to get him turning over his hocks. I was floored. I couldn’t stop watching, I was mesmerised. He’d have won a high level Working Cowhorse check that day if he’d had slide plates. And if my mentor was more a dressage type, I’d have seen piaffe/passage, one tempes, canter pirouettes.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7106070]

But yeah, I like it. And Dr. Deb’s series has been HUGE for me.[/QUOTE]

If you like those, then get her Inner Horseman archives from her main site too. Well worth the price, and full color to boot since they’re on disc.

[mvp]

Yeah, we need to have a whole thread devoted to “as educated to the leg as to the hand.”

At this point in my riding career, it’s a gaping hole. Most other things, I have what you & Brannaman say: I have a gesture-- a “good deal” for the horse and that’s no sweat for me to do. And I have a “bad deal”-- something a horse will want to avoid AND which also doesn’t get me out of breath or in harm’s way. That’s true for my hand, it’s true for what I do on the ground, at least the things I know how to do.

But not for the leg; I don’t have a clear, systematic vocabulary with my seat/leg. I get suckered into kicking or bumping or whatever it takes to get “good enough.” I don’t pull over and teach the response to the leg I want. Or if I do, I “ask” and then go Tasmanian Devil. Tasmanian Devil is an ok “bad deal” conceptually, but it doesn’t ask whether or not a horse can physically respond promptly. It doesn’t ask “what can the horse do that will make the rider immediately call the Tasmanian Devil off?” And if you don’t have that “Truce!” thing in mind, the horse can never win, or win fast enough to learn what to do next time in order to please you.

While I can make a horse that either a H/J pro will like, or a horse a beginner can ride, I don’t think I’ll be able to make one that’s evenly educated to the hand and to the leg. At some point, that will limit what I can do with a horse. That point might be now.

[aktill]

@Fillabeana;7106659

You CAN use your inside leg fat the girth, outside leg back if you want. But that takes away a huge ability to rebalance your horse, help him release a brace in his loins, by asking him to step laterally under himself more- like when you spiral out on a circle, by just asking with a leg.

There’s a simpler reason too…you can’t effectively ride your horse while roping (ie without reins for the most part) if he’s wired for leg aids like a dressage horse typically is.

[_bj]

I just wanted to say that when COTH decided to add the western forum, well, I NEVER expected threads like this. Color me tickled pink. Carry on. 

[Fillabeana]

I don’t think I’ll be able to make one that’s evenly educated to the hand and to the leg

Oh, sure you will. Just not right now.
You don’t think I’d believe that you’d noodle this out, and then just drop it rather than pursue it, do you?

I’m trying the spurs experiment on my horse right now. He doesn’t mind a spur at all, used fairly. I’m trying to use my leg on a feel. Offer the feel, go in with the spur if he doesn’t step sideways. We’ll see how that works out, it seems to be working so far. It was a year ago I was told that I shouldn’t be riding him in spurs.

I bought my OTTB, and I know I could have made a decent Training Level event horse out of him, if I had a ‘facility’ with an arena, plenty of schooling shows, and I rode him 5 days a week.
Use him for a ranch horse, ride OUT, often by myself, often with a week or a month off…not so much. I was in over my head, to put it mildly.

My QH mares…I was not in trouble with. I could have got rid of the TB, bought made ranch horses, and been fine.
But the wealth of what I have learned, about the horses, about handling the cattle, about working the border collies…WOW. And I’ve only just scratched the surface.

I did have another OTTB mare years back, I wasn’t able to ‘ride in a facility’ or ride regularly, so I sold her to someone who did. After being offered Tom Dorrance’s phone number, and saying, no thanks.
So I’m trying to take every advantage I can, both with my mentor whom Buck has called to come help with a clinic, and with Buck as well. I also want to go audit or ride with Harry Whitney.

But anyway, mvp, you have found the essence of what you MUST have to really learn anything of note from Buck and company…and that is the humility to know that any shortcomings usually don’t belong to the horse.

[Fillabeana]

There’s a simpler reason too…you can’t effectively ride your horse while roping (ie without reins for the most part) if he’s wired for leg aids like a dressage horse typically is.

Yeah, but there’s no horn on a dressage saddle. (giggle)
I KNEW Buck had said something like that, about ‘backwards’ leg aids, just didn’t remember exactly what.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=mvp;7107724]
But looking at the drugging ponies that’s going on in my first love, aka, Hunters aka Bridle Horse With Jumps In The Way… and then the sniping-type cannibalism that goes on in DQ World (which makes no difference because no matter how right you are theoretically or what a big fish you are on this continent, you suck indeed in comparison to things in Europe), I felt forced to do something different.[/QUOTE]

Amen to that, sister!!! :mad::eek::no:

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7107939]

But anyway, mvp, you have found the essence of what you MUST have to really learn anything of note from Buck and company…and that is the humility to know that any shortcomings usually don’t belong to the horse.[/QUOTE]

Love it. :yes:

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7107941]
Yeah, but there’s no horn on a dressage saddle. (giggle)
I KNEW Buck had said something like that, about ‘backwards’ leg aids, just didn’t remember exactly what.[/QUOTE]

May as well be on some these crossover saddles: http://www.parisotsellier.com/PageEn/Saddle.php

[aktill]

[QUOTE=mvp;7107717]
I’d like to think that I’d be a purist: If I had a horse in the bridle, I’d never flake out and two-hand him in that bit. I might have to humble-up and go back to the snaffle to re-establish that.[/QUOTE]

Not neccessary…that’s the reason for the two rein phase. The people who have lost this concept are the ones two handing a bridle consistently. Even a dressage double isn’t correctly ridden with differential pressure on the curb reins.

[aktill]

@Fillabeana;7107772

If I understood this more deeply, I could have asked Spotty to simply shift his weight, and then walk off to the right from the halt, without first going forward and moving his HQ laterally.

There is now smoke coming out of my ears.

One thing you might want to consider is that, while its great you understand the link between engagement and balance when it comes to the turn (especially in inside hind connection), don’t dwell on that too mechanically. I finally let go of trying to ride every step like the reformed dressage rider I am, and it’s done me a world of good. It took hearing the same thing from all of the trainers I work with regularly before I did so, mind you, so I claim no sainthood here.

Yes, you need a lateral engaging step for balance…but you don’t always need to consciously demand that action. If he’s set up and balanced, you can actually disturb that if the action becomes rote.

Likewise, you only need an outside rein to bring the horse through if he’s not doing so anyway.

If the horse is between the reins and legs, you need neither used actively. No inside rein to outside leg, no scissoring legs, no stepping laterally…if he’s balanced, the the horse turns simply because he’s set up to do so.

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7107772]
I don’t know how Buck does it in a 25+ rider clinic, with so many CFs, on day three when he gets just about everyone feeling that transcendent peace with their horses.[/QUOTE]

Not I. I won’t be riding in the clinic again given the constantly cfing environment and the need to all but demand attention, so i agree with the comment about auditing being more useful. I’ve put HOURS on the road in to have a glimpse of two clinics this year by other folks, but I’m only semi convinced I’ll drive a half hour to watch Buck’s clinic this year. If it’s as negative as previous years, that may be it for me.

I’m trying to stay positive, but it’s not always the sunshine and rainbows experience.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=aktill;7107898]
There’s a simpler reason too…you can’t effectively ride your horse while roping (ie without reins for the most part) if he’s wired for leg aids like a dressage horse typically is.[/QUOTE]

Ruh roh… so is this about horse biomechanics or those of the guy hoping to catch a moving cow and tie it to a horse’s withers for a minute… from the back of the horse?

But I do take seriously the goal of riding any horse with no reins. Anyone should want that. All the horses want it.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=mvp;7107795]
See, I think I have made this little horse too dead to my leg and I’m worried that I’ve begun to make him a hand-ridden POS. Or rather, he’s much lighter and more educated to my hand than my leg. (Also, he’s just at the end of a physical plateau and I’m asking him for things that require more strength (or something) from his hind end.)

The upshot is that I’m “getting mad at him” with my leg. That’s wrong and me be uneducated. I know how to never have to do that with my hand… so WTF with my leg? And I’m probably asking him to move his hiney or shoulder over at the wrong moment. That description of the upper-level dressager with the whip and spurs and big bit stood out. There has to be a smarter, more humane solution.

This is a kinesthetic thing. I need some theory about the “how, in general, do you vaquero types make them as light to your leg as to your hand?” My suspicion is that I have to look for and reward contrast, not a big move away from my leg. (Sorry, not explained well.)

In addition to the philosophizing, it’s also a physical skill thing requiring timing and feel. I’m going to have to let someone see the best I can do and help me improve upon that.[/QUOTE]

The high level answer is that you need to have as much respect for your leg aids as you do for your rein aids, and you need to have as much respect for your seat aids as you do for your rein aids. Finally, you need to find as much respect for the life in your body as you do for any aid at all.

Answer the following two questions honestly:

1. what sensation does it call to mind when you think about making an upward transition with the reins looped over your saddle horn or tied over the neck? Can you go halt/ canter without even a little knot in your stomach at the thought of your horse running off? The degree of knottyness is a reflection of how much safety you find in your bit.
2. if your reins or bit broke at the canter of hand gallop, how easily could you bring your horse down to a walk calmly? How instantly would you feel the need to do so? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxpBx1UiWXA&list=FL7iNX3p8mnHZi0Mru6m6G-w&index=6

The fact that you’re getting mad is good! It means you’re realizing how little respect for the legs you’ve developed in your horse. Even Ray Hunt said your horse should be *almost afraid of the leg, without being so. Dr Deb calls it “the lesson of the spur” (ironically, not done with spurs).

That said, the only way I’ve found that does this well isn’t the “goose him til he jumps” method, but the “set a limit and respect it” method. You can give him bigger kicks until he jumps, but you’ll likely lose your seat due to amount of leg require, and you’ll ALWAYS be late.

Instead, try seeing how much you can move your calf away from the horse before you get the tiniest tension in your thigh (hint, I can’t even take my leg off my horse). That’s the amount you can move your leg before your horse reacts…that’s the new threshold. Any more and your tightening and gripping, and that’s compromising your seat.

Try gently fluttering your leg aid at that level, repeatedly, stopping if any tension enters your thigh. If your horse moves off this, great…if not, you get two bumps and then you go to spurs, a crop, or the tail of your rein.

That’s it…no secret. Two bumps, the you do what you need to with another aid until you don’t need that anymore.

If you need to get big enough that you horse gets tense, you do it, and you ride on until you can get your horse soft at whatever pace you end up in. Eventually, the act of moving off wont cause tension. If it still does, you get half as much aid to work with, and try again.

If you can do this in a round pen or arena, loop your reins and set them down so you’re not tempted to goose the horse in the mouth if he moves off too quick. If he does, go with it, blend, and then bring him down.

Now speaking laterally, spurs are the way you keep your horse this SOFT. Light is pointless without soft. If you roll the spur instead if jabbing, it creates no tension.

If you ask your horse to walk off with no tension in your seat, he should stay off your legs. That means if you go to turn and he instead plows through your leg, you know he’s not looking for the middle. Hint: don’t look where you want to go, bring the saddle horn around until you’re pointing in the right direction.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=mvp;7108295]
Ruh roh… so is this about horse biomechanics or those of the guy hoping to catch a moving cow and tie it to a horse’s withers for a minute… from the back of the horse?

But I do take seriously the goal of riding any horse with no reins. Anyone should want that. All the horses want it.[/QUOTE]

Do you want aids that channel the flow of energy, or aids that contain the leaks in a sinking rowboat?

Anyone can ride without reins. A master can lay reins on softness and have the horse take comfort in that action. Riding with reins without creating tension takes far more skill then riding without them.

[aktill]

So in the 2012 clinic, Buck is addressing the AM clinic, I am walking to the porta-potty and Buck says, “A little squeeze is NOT a feel. A little kick is NOT a feel.” That stopped me in my tracks, literally.

^^^
This.

Lots of people don’t get that riding with the horse picking up the life in your body is what the master does. They MOST EMPHATICALLY do not simply just dial down their “aids” to the point of invisibility.

[aktill]

Last thought question on leg vs hand:
1)in this thread, the concept of using the inside leg stepping under the body shadow to set up a correct turn has been discussed extensively. When you’ve been picturing this action, are you thinking about how best to use the rein to set the horse’s inside leg?

If so, you have more respect for your rein than for your seat or leg.

[Bluey]

You know, once you understand the concepts of riding properly, western or not, you can ride a colt for the first time and get the colt working right for you as if it had been ridden before.

Our old instructor, well into his 70’s, was watching an older teenage boy starting this big andalusian colt.
The boy had worked with the four year old really calm colt right and was ready to get on for the first time.
He did so and the colt bucked him so high, I though he would hit the top of the three story high indoor ceiling.
He looked like a glider plane coming down, arms spread out.
It was one of the more impressive buck-offs I have ever seen.:eek:

The instructor picked up the reins, told the boy he had rushed the colt, got on and put one of the prettiest rides on him you had ever seen.
That colt really looked like he had been ridden months, not that it was it’s first ride.

That was the first and only time in many years I saw the instructor even on a horse, he never rode any more, but what a horseman he was, truly amazing what he could do with that colt.
He looked like someone had screwed him tight on the colt, he hardly moved, you could not see the aids, they were so discrete.
He had him walking on a loose rein, trotting in serpentines and cantering both ways so nicely, it was impressive.

The instructor got off and handed the reins to the boy, told him to put him up, that was enough for today for him and please come back to talk about this.
When the boy came back, he told us that he felt sorry for the colt, he should not have asked so much of him, but that the colt was that good and a natural and just kept doing what he asked and he got carried away.

He said back off, work a bit more on the ground before getting on, come when I am here.
The colt needs to learn to go a bit more.
He is not lazy but has been held back to keep him from moving out too fast and had forgotten to teach him to move out.
We need to teach him now first to keep moving, he had a great colt and he would make him proud.

When we start colts, after a few rides, we ride without using the reins as a gauge of how well the colts are responding and what to work on.
In the right confined place, we take the bridle clear off and that really lets the colt talk to us thru how it positions it’s head and neck and how it moves under us, if balanced or bracey.

What is one of the most important concepts a rider needs to be riding well?
How important AN INDEPENDENT SEAT is, independent of our legs and even more important, HANDS.

Our hands as humans are a vital part of who we are.
We use our arms for balance and to handle so much in our environment, from large motor to small motor movements, they are crucial to us.
No wonder we translate that to working with horses, with is fine, as long as we learn to use our hands while riding as the tool to communicate they are, not so much for balance using the horse’s head for it.

That is why beginners should be best started on the longe line, so they get that concept.
They should be taught how to use reins to communicate, not to try to hang on and keep from falling off.

When you are learning to rein, first you do is spend time in a round pen, with an old schoolmaster reiner, hands folded in front of you, learning how a reiner works under you.

Why hands folded?
Because without it, humans tend to ride using their arms for balance and so throwing the horse off balance.
You have to find your balance with the horse with the least movement from you, no balancing up there by, what must feel like to your horse, windmilling your arms.

One problem of any instructor, especially in clinics, is to keep seeing all that is happening, so much not right and trying to address all that at once.
That is even assuming the clinician is aware of the proper concepts, something some seem blissfully unaware, inventing their own strange theories and then, I call it reinventing the wheel, then coming up with square wheels.:eek:

No matter what you hear in clinics by anyone, if it doesn’t make sense to you, keep asking, or forget that and move on, not all out there is good theory.

[katarine]

MVP you thought I was being prickly and rude when I said (basically) that you can’t just drop in to a Buck or _____ clinic and get a feel for what’s going on, pick up a few tips and get on with this ‘thing’. I think you’re starting to get it—this way of riding is a way of life, a way of feeling. It’s fascinating and bottomless- it’s been interesting to watch your evolving understanding from the sidelines.

Enjoy