That "Eclectic Horseman" magazine and whatnot

[QUOTE=katarine;7108560]
MVP you thought I was being prickly and rude when I said (basically) that you can’t just drop in to a Buck or _____ clinic and get a feel for what’s going on, pick up a few tips and get on with this ‘thing’. I think you’re starting to get it—this way of riding is a way of life, a way of feeling. It’s fascinating and bottomless- it’s been interesting to watch your evolving understanding from the sidelines.

Enjoy :)[/QUOTE]

FWIW, I still think you have pre-judged me. Also, I haven’t changed my basic way of thinking about my obligation to change what I do in order to get a horse to change. I wasn’t like that as a teenager perhaps, but it does pre-date my introduction to Buck Brannaman by decades.

In other news, I appreciate the dip into the discussion of “getting 'em broke to the leg.” I’ll respond to you guys when I can read your posts carefully. Thanks again!

[QUOTE=aktill;7108272]
Not neccessary…that’s the reason for the two rein phase. The people who have lost this concept are the ones two handing a bridle consistently. Even a dressage double isn’t correctly ridden with differential pressure on the curb reins.[/QUOTE]

Oh, certainly!

I’m just thinking about what happens when Horseling starts to get lazy about keeping the bend you asked for while you are straight up in the bridle. That does require “pulling over”-- going back to the bosal or snaffle and correcting the problem, doesn’t it? IME, horses need little tune-ups or reminders about keeping a bend if I’m not “manufacturing” that with a combination of leg and direct-rein hand. I don’t know any horse who will go weeks or months without one of these reminders, do you guys?

I hope I’d be patient enough to put different tack, not just think I was going to pick up my inside rein with the spade and git-r-done.

mvp–Have you worked this horse much in a round pen? Let me tell you a story that shows why I ask this.

Six years ago, I went shopping for a school horse for my college equestrian club to practice on. Was looking for cheap and tolerant. Now, I admit up front that I haven’t bought a lot of horses in my day, I tend to be a long-term owner and am no kind of professional; I was faculty/staff advisor for the team and did coaching out of necessity but I’m the first to admit it was, literally, pretty backyard. We’re a small school in an area of little developed horse activity. Anyhow, I was looking for cheap. I didn’t really need another horse, but the horse I was trying to develop my own horsemanship with was carrying too much of the load (like, all of it) and he needed help. I finally found a fellow in a very low-rent sale barn who looked sound and seemed to be tolerant. And, since shopping for cheap horses is one of the most depressing things one can spend time doing, I was ready to be done with it, and the horse needed to get out of where he was. Anyhow, he did well for the club for a while, but outside of a strict, rigid, insensitive management, the real horse inside began to come out. Turns out, he was pretty shut down, tolerating the crude riding he was getting, but suffering for it. Eventually, the equestrian club moved on to a professional coach, and I began working more with this little horse myself. Very much like the horse you describe, stiff, not athletic, resistant.

His exposure to horse-centric horsemanship allowed him to come out of his shell, and it wasn’t always pretty. I wasn’t the softest person in the world at that point myself, and kept getting into tussles with this horse. One day, my horsemanship guru, a good student of Buck’s, took the horse from me when we were doing ground work in a clinic situation. This guy has impecable timing and feel, and within seconds, the horse’s eyes got big as saucers, and you could clearly see him saying “Finally! It IS possible to communicate with these creatures!!”

My problem was that I needed to tone down everything I did with him–he was, it turned out, an incredibly sensitive horse, but he’d gone so far inside himself because of his life of unsensitive and unfair handling.

One of the things we did with our horses was to do some round pen work. Not to get ya-yas out, but to learn to operate our horses by feel, from a distance, without any physical contact. I found it easy to get upward transitions with this horse, but I struggled, and struggled, and struggled to get downward transitions. “Lower your energy” I was told. Okay, but HOW? Well, you have to figure that out. Try relaxing your body; think lower energy; walk slower; stand still. Nope; no fooling this horse. Finally, one day, working on my own, I said to myself, “I know it sounds hokey, it doesn’t seem possible, but I’ll try it. I’ll try it.” The horse was trotting nicely around the pen, pretty well hooked on to me, but I could NOT get a trot-walk transition without physically blocking him. Instead, I stopped, took a deep breath, let it out slowly, thinking of dropping my energy, letting my shoulders relax, sinking into the ground.

By the time I’d let the breath all the way out, he was walking.

To this day, I never use a voice cue when I’m in the roundpen or lunging (yes, I do both). For an upward transition, I raise my line hand and move it toward the front of the horse, pick up the energy in my walk; for downward transitions, it’s always my breathing.

Not only is the horse sensitive, he’s incredibly honest. I have to be careful what I think about when I’m riding him, or he’ll start doing what I’m thinking about. And he always tells me when I’m not being honest with myself. Always. But, today, all of the wrinkles are out of his face, he has a happy expression, he’s gained weight and condition. He will never be athletic, but he’s balanced, supple, forward, responsive. There are still demons in there, but generally he’s happy in his work. He is, quite literally, a different horse.

Don’t overlook the possibility that you don’t need to be firmer with your leg to teach him what the lighter aid means. Perhaps you need to be softer. And perhaps you need to try a different venue to get in touch with this horse.

[QUOTE=monstrpony;7108622]
mvp–Have you worked this horse much in a round pen? Let me tell you a story that shows why I ask this.

Don’t overlook the possibility that you don’t need to be firmer with your leg to teach him what the lighter aid means. Perhaps you need to be softer. And perhaps you need to try a different venue to get in touch with this horse.[/QUOTE]

Good story! (Don’t take my editing the wrong way!). I understand. In fact, one of the things that tells me that I need some education is that I have a good “body vocabulary” on the ground. I have a clear signal for “lower the energy” or “raise the energy” installed in my body. I teach others to get their own, as well.

So goddam, if I have that on the ground and with my hand, I should be able to develop a similarly sophisticated and reliable language with my leg.

What worries me too about “my part” in Little Horse’s behind-the-legness is that when we started he had a big, rather unbroken Morgan ego. He was not shut down, but told you what the thought. (Not all of it was “how may I serve you?”) I spent a lot to time teaching him to wait for me to tell him what to do. He turned that big ego into a capacity for great and sustained concentration. Unathletic or not, this horse was receptive to training.

So when a horse who has been taught how to be a good student stops being so responsive, that’s the sign of bad pedagogy.

He’s buttah on the ground still. But maybe I can go back there to teach him a “go” button better than I could on his back.

Oh, and some of this is him in our covered arena. When I ride him in the 3 acre field, he is predictably lighter to my leg. But that “meh, I go forward in some times and some places but not others” isn’t broke, IMO. And it will be a long, sh!tty winter here in the rainy PNW if the horse doesn’t learn to accept that he can apply himself in an indoor arena as well as out in the open.

ETA: A story of my own. When I was in high school a good eventing lady with a hot, stupid but very broke TB schoolmaster gave me lessons on her horse. Before that, I got the job done on a horse and wanted to be better, but didn’t have the education. About being soft and subtle, she said, “You know how to take your aids from 50% to 100%. You have no idea what 0 to 50 looks like. So let’s learn that.”

I still use that image to orient my goals for riding and for explaining this to other people.

How big is your covered arena? There are some things that my fellow resists in my arena at home, which is small; he’ll do the same things willingly in my friend’s arena, which is much larger. He gets that sucky cramped feeling when I ask things that threaten his balance at home, because he doesn’t have the space to move on AND keep in balance, and he’s not strong enough to collect (it’s not so small that he needs collection, but he seems to think it is).

My work with this horse has been incredibly slow. I don’t have a place to ride consistently in the winter, nor am I home in the daylight on weekdays. He has some physical issues that mean inconsistent riding can’t be as productive. Some of his demons are/were pretty explosive, and I’m too old to be a lawn dart, so we’ve done some things veeerrrrryy slowly. Embarassingly slowly. Glacially slowly. But, ya know what? It’s been worth it. The silly guy has taught me a LOT.

Anyhow, just throwing out some thoughts.

^^^

Good thoughts on the expen$ive building being too small to suit Prince Horse. But no, that’s not it. It’s 55’ x 150’ or so and open to the outside world on the end. It’s open to the rest of the barn on one long side. And the horse is maybe 15 h.

This is not the scenario that my own slacker of a gelding had to face. That horse was a mellow, secure, lazy 16.1 KWPN thing. He didn’t want to go forward in a ring that was 60’ x 120’ and had walls on 3 sides with a little “lobby” section in the front. He said, “Hey, why gallop? I’m just going to have to shorten and turn in 5 strides.” He was right, but it pissed me off.

IMO, the horse who wants a 6-figure arena had better get broke first so that he can earn the money to pay for it. In the mean time? Or he can’t write a check? Then he’s going to have to suck it up and go off my leg.

LOL. My 17.3h draft cross with EPSM had no problem cantering in my arena, but this guy, at 16.0h, THINKS he has one. We’re working it out, but it’s taken a while, needed a lot of PT first. It’s possible I humor him too much, but he is honest and he has a good sense of self-preservation, so I give him the benefit of the doubt.

Carry on–

[QUOTE=monstrpony;7108622]
Finally, one day, working on my own, I said to myself, “I know it sounds hokey, it doesn’t seem possible, but I’ll try it. I’ll try it.” The horse was trotting nicely around the pen, pretty well hooked on to me, but I could NOT get a trot-walk transition without physically blocking him. Instead, I stopped, took a deep breath, let it out slowly, thinking of dropping my energy, letting my shoulders relax, sinking into the ground.

By the time I’d let the breath all the way out, he was walking.

To this day, I never use a voice cue when I’m in the roundpen or lunging (yes, I do both). For an upward transition, I raise my line hand and move it toward the front of the horse, pick up the energy in my walk; for downward transitions, it’s always my breathing.

Not only is the horse sensitive, he’s incredibly honest. I have to be careful what I think about when I’m riding him, or he’ll start doing what I’m thinking about. [/QUOTE]

With regard to breath control - it is really very important and is something I focus on in my yoga classes with my students. Using your breath (and actually knowing how to access it) can help your body’s responses to situations. If you’re holding your breath, you are carrying tension. If you’re breathing into your chest, you are carrying tension (and when riding it also changes your balance). I teach my students how to breathe into their bellies, how to slow their breathing, how to become aware of their breathing and use it to their benefit.

Anyway, what I was going to say that once when I was really sick in the winter time, I still wanted to get my TB out but didn’t have the energy or inclination to hop on and ride so I put him on the longe line. He’s very well-mannered on the longe, and I’m not a “put the horse on the line and spin him in circles so he’ll get his energy out” kind of longeur, so we were going to work on transitions mostly. But I couldn’t talk. My throat was so sore and my voice so hoarse that I couldn’t utter a sound. It was a really interesting exercise in using my body language to get him to move - up, down, come in, move out, whoa…I found even where I looked at him would make a change in what he did. Look at shoulders, ribcage, haunch; eyes up, eyes down; look in his eyes, or at his body - it all meant something to him. I had never tried NOT talking to him while lunging and it was amazing to learn that I actually didn’t need to - not with my voice, anyway.

I do always use a loud exhale when doing a downward transition. Actually, I think the most recent video on my blog was of me trail riding Mac (I was holding my phone to video a portion of the ride) and you can actually hear me exhale and then see that he goes from canter to trot or trot to walk.

They are sensitive and I agree about watching what you think when riding. I noticed it one day when I was thinking about coming across a bear or mountain lion (like, what would the scenario be like) and Mac started getting agitated. Nothing else had really changed and so when I changed my thoughts he calmed down again. Or if I think of trotting and he does it…I have to be careful of when I have my thoughts or he’ll do it when my mind thinks of it, not when my body asks for it. So I guess I need to get my mind and body in synch!! :lol:

^^^
It is good to know how you are breathing on a horse. Heck, half of what I do when I teach anyone is help them put their body into the right position or feel, and then find a name for that action/sensation and all so that they can do it again, on command.

With ground work the “whoa” or more mysterious “lower your energy” thing works well with this:

Ask your student to stand as if she is waiting in a long line for 'Stone Tickets. You know that I mean: You have been standing there for 6 hours.

Stand like that yourself in order to give them a visual. Describe what you are doing/feeling with your shoulders, hips, hands, breath or whatever.

But really, everyone has stood in line and figured out how to use the minimum amount of muscular- and emotional energy that it takes to do that.

Whatever that distinct, “I’m waiting in line for 'Stones tickets” thing is that they are doing with their whole body? That’s a signal for the horse.

The coolest thing about it is that they can easily find the position. The horse can recognize it and the longeur gets instant feedback from the horse. Everyone is getting trained and is happy.

A thought here…
It was a while before I was able to get attention, focus, respect from my OTTB. I got it on the ground TWO YEARS before I could reliably get it from the saddle, in a situation where he was really ‘up’.

The understanding came in small chunks, here and there. But essentially, if the horse does not regard you as superior in the relationship, he is just entertaining you by doing as you ask, ie he has no obligation but he might do it anyway.
This is NOT a you-must-be-dominant, aggressive, or otherwise harass the horse into immediate compliance. If you do not wait on him, reward the smallest tried, you are undermining yourself. And there are lots of katarine’s blooming idiots who get compliance by running the horse around a round pen until its life sucks enough that it will do as you ask. Until you’re not ‘holding it over him’. And the horse knows you are holding it over him.

Mvp, not that I expect you are going this sort of route from anything I’ve ever seen you post, but it’s worth pointing out for others.

Anyway, a horse figures out who is who in the relationship, by figuring out who moves whose feet.
(When I fully realized all the ways a racehorse moves the feet of his handlers, jockey, etc. I was floored, and understood my OTTB’s deeply troubled behavior much better.)

Anyway, if the horse is traveling more slowly, or faster, than you have asked him to (when you’re riding), the horse is moving YOUR feet. No bueno. You won’t get him operating on a feel until you work that out.

So anywho, I was able to see, and insist upon, who was moving whose feet on the ground, or in a roundpen a LONG time before I realized what was going on under saddle.
Get him right on the ground, great. Get on, and he corks off.

Frustrating!

Again, you may have to be subtle, to honor the horse trying JUST A SMIDGE, ‘asking’ him to slow down, and bringing life up again. But if the horse is not going the speed YOU dictate (or trying in some capacity to do so), he’s moving your feet.

Getting that balance right, where the horse livens up to your request but not nearly ‘enough’, developed into a horse that will just bring his life right up and jump right out into a calm gallop ANY TIME is sort of like asking a horse to stand still. Sometimes, he can’t. So you just have to keep him busy, doing things he CAN do, asking him to pause a beat, and build on that until he can stand still.

And that, by the way, has everything to do with what Buck does, and what about 3% of clinic participants do, when Buck is talking for that hour or more answering questions at the beginning and end of the day’s session. If you are finding little bitty ways that the horse is GIVING to you, all the time…you could go from that quiet, standing around jawing to gallop off and go jump a 3’ oxer, or go rope that horse that just freaked out about the spectator’s umbrella and dumped his rider.

As Buck said during his last clinic, those horses that get all wound up going someplace new, their riders don’t have anything to offer them because they aren’t asking their horses to give, when they think ‘he’s nice and calm’.
To quote Buck, “He’s not calm and well behaved. He’s ASLEEP. There’s a difference.”

They are sensitive and I agree about watching what you think when riding.

I’ve got a REALLY smart mare who really likes to grab a bite when on the trail. Riding all day, you really ought to find a time and place for them to graze, but anyway what I do is look ahead on our path, find a big, thick bunch of grass that Bean can grab while maintaining our nice, forward walk, and that is ALWAYS the bunch she grabs. I just think it. (And she can do it at a trot, too.)

I’m trying to teach the TB to grab a bite and keep walking. So far, we’ve got to, you pause and take ONE bite from exactly the bunch of Idaho Fescue that I’m thinking about.

One thing you might want to consider is that, while its great you understand the link between engagement and balance when it comes to the turn (especially in inside hind connection), don’t dwell on that too mechanically. I finally let go of trying to ride every step like the reformed dressage rider I am, and it’s done me a world of good. It took hearing the same thing from all of the trainers I work with regularly before I did so, mind you, so I claim no sainthood here.

Well…there’s a place where you are controlling where the feet go, too much. As such, the horse is a bit ‘hobbled’. You get so busy controlling the feet that you are leaving intentions behind, you are not waiting until the horse and you can have the same idea, or setting it up to become so.

Terry Church writes about walking her horse slowly through a creek bed filled with large stones, on her dressage horse, getting help from Tom Dorrance. It was a while before she understood that she was controlling her horse’s feet so much that the horse couldn’t do it for himself.

But…
If you can control the horse’s feet precisely without getting in his way, without being overbearing, that is an ideal I am absolutely striving for.

Last spring, I had a transcendent experience, in a walk-trot transition.
My husband and I were riding home. Husband picks up a trot. I have my horse mentally with me, but I know it’s about half a moment before he mentally goes to ‘I want to trot along with my buddy’.
I felt his left fore, in walk, and asked it to slow down, and in the next instant directed his thought toward his trotting buddy- at the same instant I asked his life to come up, specifically in his right hind. Left front slowed to synch with RH sped up, and we had our trot transition.
It was magic.

And I know that is a piece of how Ray Hunt could get on a colt, spend a couple of days walking mostly and trotting a bit, and then three days later canter the colt for the first time and make two figure eights with two perfect flying changes.

So yes, I know we can get too focused, to constrictive, ‘to dwell on that too mechanically’, and miss the bigger picture. I think what made it work was the molding of intention, the synchronicity of asking for life right when the horse was perfectly willing, when our ideas were one and the same. There’s magic there, and I intend to find that again and more often.

MVP, without honestly wanting to be rude many of your descriptions where you offer an opinion of the various horses you own or ride are peppered with descriptions of how you feel that they’re stubborn or lazy or difficult. It influences how you’re asking your questions, even if you don’t realize it.

If you eliminate physical reasons for disagreement, it’s not been my experience that horses are in any way lazy. There are those that don’t readily put out energy, but that’s a rider issue. There’s responsibility for the rider to justify WHY the horse should be putting out energy, not just to hop on and demand obedience.

Some just need to be told that they need to work for a living, sure. That said, if every riding session is unpleasant work, it’s like going to a job you hate…not motivating. It then becomes the rider’s task to find a job they do like, or make the job they have more interesting.

Likewise, the “stubborn” horse is often saying that you haven’t earned the right to direct their actions. It’s not a “show them who’s boss” discussion like the cro-magnon trainers on RFDTV, but rather a case of consistently proving that you’re making decisions that are in their best interest (ie earning the right through performance). When you do that, they’re often the most hard-working horses, since it takes a lot to earn the right to lead FROM a natural leader.

There’s no such thing as a lazy bridle horse…you just can’t pedal a horse all day long. There are mean bridle horses who will buck you off if you don’t ask them politely and stay on guard, but even they aren’t lazy.

As such:

[QUOTE=mvp;7108611]
I’m just thinking about what happens when Horseling starts to get lazy about keeping the bend you asked for while you are straight up in the bridle.[/QUOTE]

They won’t “get lazy” about bend if you’re asking for the amount of bend that makes their job the easiest in a way that they understand. If you’re asking them to look right when their mind is locked on something to the left, that’s a mind issue, not a bend issue. On the physical side, it’s never been my experience that a horse will look for a harder way to do something, however.

Speaking of the two-rein, however, you’re already carrying a bosalita?

Getting to straight up in the bridle isn’t a case of “you get 60% on one western dressage test and so now it’s bridle time”. The old test was to tie your reins to the bit with horsehair, do a full day’s work, and if you don’t break the hair THEN you’re ready for being straight up. Most horses nowadays would never meet that goal ever.

Even on those that do, lots of bridle horses spend WAY more time in the two-rein then in the bridle on a day to day basis. It’s a way of protecting their training when in the branding pen etc and the bosalita would provide a buffer.

Yes, I do. Any time my horse is resisting taking a bend, I find it’s something I’M doing, not what the horse is doing. When I change, he changes. I never have to hold him in something.

If you’re having to tune up, you’re holding carriage. If you let go and the horse doesn’t hold self carriage, you’re actually manufacturing carriage.

Again, a horse will always look for the easiest way to do their job. The carriage they assume has to represent that. As such, the master’s horse in extreme collection is actually adopting the posture that makes that action the easiest, remember…he’s not being forced to hold frame.

I speak in crude terms about horses’ intentions. I give them credit for having their own agendas. I anthropomorphize, but only in ways that I think are fair or helpful to the horse.

I also think that a horse should be useful and pleasant to ride. Otherwise, why bother? I don’t demand obedience for the hell of it. I understand that I can train a horse to want to try harder or to expect that he’ll simply have to endure a ride.

So:

I don’t think I speak of horses that are stubborn. Reread my posts to find out if you think that’s true. I don’t believe horses actually decide to resist us for the hell of it or to make some abstract point about power.

I do think horses can be physically lazy. I don’t blame them for that. In fact, it can help with training them since that provides the incentive for the animal to figure out how to get me to change what I’m doing.

I don’t think most are mentally lazy. The ones that seem that way are the ones who haven’t been taught to engage with us in a training conversation.

I don’t think horses (or people) are “difficult.” In fact, the term isn’t helpful because it doesn’t explain anything about how/why the person using the term can’t get the other to behave differently.

I’m willing to accept “my part in it,” but that’s not usually making bad attributions to horses’ motivations. If you think so, well… that’s the failing of my ability to represent myself accurately on the internet. I’ll remember that that’s how I come across to you.

Stubborn was unfair, true, I’m sorry. I truely don’t mean to be critical , but I thought pointing this out might get you to look at these discussions from a different angle.

It’s just that I hear a lot of similar things coming from people that feel that they need to ride in such a way as to be waiting for the other shoe to drop. The need to be able to direct a foot, or keep an outside rein etc, because the horse is looking for a way out of doing what the rider is asking.

Instead, I try to look at it in such as way as to say “how can I ask in the way that sets the horse up so that the easiest thing for him to do is what I want anyway?”.

So if I can offer a takeaway, don’t worry about needing to be able to ride a bridle and keep the horse in the middle. When you get there, he won’t want to be anywhere else.

Fillabeana, do we know each other by chance? I ride with Buck in No CA, OR, and WA.

I don’t know, Retro!
I have a leggy, tall brown TB gelding that I’ve ridden the last three years (not in 2011, tho), and a B/W Paint filly that is two, that I rode in the ‘post colt-starting’ H1 in Dayton, WA this year.
If you’re going to ride in OR next year (Bend/Redmond), we’ll for sure have to meet up in person.