That flapping plastic bag on a stick thing

[walktrot]

I’ve always liked John Lyons’ training, which he calls conditioned response – hates the term “natural horsemanship” for several reasons. I saw him at Equine Affaire in Mass. probably around 2003, and several other times, always watching both ground work and riding. After I bought my first (and only) horse I did some work with a JL certified trainer. John has never used a flag and he uses regular halters. In fact his only “requirements” are the horse, the halter, a lead rope, and a dressage whip, which serves as an extension of your hand. He does base his method on round penning but emphasizes the transition to riding. He also recognizes that if you don’t have a round pen (or a smaller square space where you can cut off the corners) you will need to longe. I’m not sure I’ve ever really understood the flag, even though I’ve watched my BO clinic with Buck several times and teach his techniques to a few people at our barn.

A flag should get the horse’s attention pretty quickly if you wave it around, and you can certainly make noise with it too. I have seen it used effectively to load several recalcitrant horses, and also round penning, by several people with the combination of training, technique and timing. I watched an owner at our barn who had a couple of months of assistance in training a young Appy mare. She was in the round pen one day and couldn’t get the mare to go from walk to trot. She didn’t snap the flag, which was the cue the horse had been trained to. She was waving it vigorously up and down. She just didn’t get it. So she spent 15 minutes or so waving the flag up and down. The horse got aggravated, but never trotted.

If the goal is connect the cue to an action, it doesn’t make any difference if you use a hand, a whip, a flag, or a baseball bat. If you don’t have, or develop, the split second timing you are not likely to get the results you are looking for. I agree with Palm Beach, who advocates desensitizing the horse to bags, which do occasionally blow across our hayfield and get caught on a bush by the trail. I also agree with John’s admonition about teaching the cues on the ground so that you can adapt them to your riding. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone ride with a flag.

[Ladylexie]

Funny us saddle seat people have had the bag on a stick thing long before it was cool.

[Scribbler]

@Palm Beach

I only use a bag on a stick to desensitize. Horses need to learn to ignore things in their environment that have no meaning. A plastic bag blowing across the ground or someone ripping open a new plastic bag encased set of polos should NOT mean “leap away.” I do not want my horses responding to anything other than my leg, seat and hand, so I train them to ignore all kinds of noisy moving things.

Timing comes with experience, so don’t be afraid to get out there and work with the horse. The more you do, the more you get. It’s not rocket science, it’s putting the time and logic in.

I don’t lunge, it’s pretty pointless both mentally and physically. If I have a horse that is not ready to ride, we do groundwork until it’s ready to ride and then we ride.

This is all true, and has been true for my experience. But I was wondering how to usefully intervene when you were watching someone try to do this, and get into tangles such that in their own minds, their horse is becoming more of a problem to them over a course of several months, rather than less of a problem. My advice to them is indeed basically “get out there and work with your horse, figure it out on your own” which has always worked for me. Then I come upon them having a real stalemate moment, horse getting pissy. Take horse away to demonstrate, horse is fine for me, hand horse back and can’t really communicate to person how to get such easy compliance.

I’m not settting up as a coach, trainer, or horse whisperer clinician in which case being able to teach humans would be a key skill. But it would be nice to be able to untangle friends from time to time. Now of course some people, you show them a technique once and they learn it and everything is fine. Others, there is just some fundamental gap in what they’re doing even when they are trying. I worry that

[CHT]

Your question is interesting, and I think the gap is because most training programs, or lesson programs think of the training scale as it pertains to horses, but not a training scale as it applies to riders. This makes learning frustrating for both the coach and the student. Students seem to think they should be able to grasp and apply a concept right after being explained, when there are really many steps! These are the steps I have interpreted from coaching skills.

Step 1: Conscious incompetence (knowing you don’t know)
Step 2: Conscious competence (being explained the skill, but really having to think about it to do it)
Step 3: Unconscious competence (knows when to use the skill, and can apply it without conscious thought. Has muscle memory)
Step 4: Advance unconscious competence. Like step 3, but can do it with imperceptible aids, and with symmetry.
Step 5: Conscious of unconscious competence: (being aware of exactly what you are doing and why, and able to explain it to others.

Most lesson students/casual riders remain at Step 2 and 3. Unfortunately many trainers/coaches and well meaning friends don’t move past step 4, so when trying to pass on knowledge they can’t actually verbalize EVERY step (what they observe/feel and what they do), as there are some steps that they are not conscious of. This is often described as “feel”. Having a well trained equine that responds quickly to the correct answer is a big step towards developing “feel”. Being able to work many horses so you can learn about different horses and their responses is also very helpful.

Unfortunately most people don’t have the time to devote to working many horses or really thinking about cause and effect when working a horse and want a 1+2=3 answer for riding. There really isn’t one once you get beyond the very basics. And this is why your bag on a stick question has many (possibly correct) answers.

[Palm_Beach]

@Scribbler

This is all true, and has been true for my experience. But I was wondering how to usefully intervene when you were watching someone try to do this, and get into tangles such that in their own minds, their horse is becoming more of a problem to them over a course of several months, rather than less of a problem.

If you are not a trainer, then it’s not really your business to intervene. I keep my mouth shut when I’m around my riding friends, and only offer up advice if I’m asked for it. And I freely state that I watch Warwick Schiller videos if I get stuck on something.

[Scribbler]

@Palm Beach

If you are not a trainer, then it’s not really your business to intervene. I keep my mouth shut when I’m around my riding friends, and only offer up advice if I’m asked for it. And I freely state that I watch Warwick Schiller videos if I get stuck on something.

Yeah, I know. But people do ask me especially beginner rider friends that I have a previous friendship with.

[Caol_Ila]

OP, my favourite trick when explaining timing and feel to people is to hold one end of a lead rope while they hold another. I then ask my friend to ‘walk on’ by giving the lead a sudden and unexpected jerk. Make it a surprise. Naturally, the friend will resist, maybe take a step back or pull to regain their balance. Because the friend didn’t immediately do as I asked and resisted my aid, I give another sharp tug. If I’m feeling really creative, I shout “Vamos!” – “lets go” in Spanish – because not many people here in Scotland speak Spanish. I then ask, “How was that for you?” Inevitably they say it wasn’t very pleasant.

Next I take a soft feel of the rope, so they can just feel my contact but it’s not stiff or harsh. I gently increase the pressure as I move away from them, but still keeping it soft. Usually they will follow, and I release the pressure as soon as they start taking a step forward. They agree that this is much nicer than it was the first time I asked.

The exercise puts them in the horses’ shoes, as it were, and gives them that whole experiential thing.

[Scribbler]

@CHT

Your question is interesting, and I think the gap is because most training programs, or lesson programs think of the training scale as it pertains to horses, but not a training scale as it applies to riders. This makes learning frustrating for both the coach and the student. Students seem to think they should be able to grasp and apply a concept right after being explained, when there are really many steps! These are the steps I have interpreted from coaching skills.

Step 1: Conscious incompetence (knowing you don’t know)
Step 2: Conscious competence (being explained the skill, but really having to think about it to do it)
Step 3: Unconscious competence (knows when to use the skill, and can apply it without conscious thought. Has muscle memory)
Step 4: Advance unconscious competence. Like step 3, but can do it with imperceptible aids, and with symmetry.
Step 5: Conscious of unconscious competence: (being aware of exactly what you are doing and why, and able to explain it to others.

Most lesson students/casual riders remain at Step 2 and 3. Unfortunately many trainers/coaches and well meaning friends don’t move past step 4, so when trying to pass on knowledge they can’t actually verbalize EVERY step (what they observe/feel and what they do), as there are some steps that they are not conscious of. This is often described as “feel”. Having a well trained equine that responds quickly to the correct answer is a big step towards developing “feel”. Being able to work many horses so you can learn about different horses and their responses is also very helpful.

Unfortunately most people don’t have the time to devote to working many horses or really thinking about cause and effect when working a horse and want a 1+2=3 answer for riding. There really isn’t one once you get beyond the very basics. And this is why your bag on a stick question has many (possibly correct) answers.

This is a very good outline of what you need to be able to teach effectively. In the core academic subject that I teach, I’m definitely at number 5.

Depending on what I’m doing with horses, I would be wavering between 3, 4 and 5. But even when I’m at 5, what I say about what I do doesn’t always communicate to beginners.

In my core subject, I’ve got it broken down into a syllabus and I make sure I don’t force my students to do tasks that are impossible for them at whatever stage. However, with my riding friends, it’s by definition going to happen when the friends are dealing with a horse or problem that’s too difficult for them.

I know the time and effort it took to get to #5 in my core subject, and how “going pro” in that field altered my relationship to what was previously a passion and a hobby. “Going pro” was life altering, but it also meant a loss of freedom and pleasure in the activity.

I don’t want to “go pro” in any sense in my riding; I want to be a competent amateur. But competent amateurs can still help out beginner friends and indeed other competent amateurs, especially when you have the same coach, and are working on the same techniques.

I agree being an effective riding or horsemanship instructor would mean functioning at Step 5 consistently, but it probably also requires having some syllabus or curriculum for the student. When I attend a ground work clinic, I can see how the clinician builds on skills over the course of two days. I don’t have the authority or the insurance to take over educating a person like this, nor indeed the desire to develop my teaching skills to that point, because I have a good idea of the amount of commitment that would take.

So what it means is I’ll have to try sorting out a friend whose horse is having a meltdown while we are out riding together, or can’t load their horse in a trailer, or something that pops up suddenly and needs resolving now. And inevitably, it has to do with how they are inadvertently pulling the horse on top of themselves, or getting it wired up, or blocking it from going where they want. I can see what they are doing wrong, I can take over the horse, talk them through how I am using body language to get the horse to move forward quietly, etc., but I can’t get them to have the same outcome as me. Well, sometimes, yes, it is one thing they fix and then it’s all good. But other times, not so much.

Maybe the conclusion is that the folks who are having global problems in handling a horse need to be in intense training for a while with a real instructor who is both at Step #5 and has a syllabus or progression of skills in mind.

[CHT]

@Scribbler

Maybe the conclusion is that the folks who are having global problems in handling a horse need to be in intense training for a while with a real instructor who is both at Step #5 and has a syllabus or progression of skills in mind.

For a “quick fix” the thing that helps is to help the person slow down and breath, and then assess which basic skill is failing. (stop, slow, go, back or turn). By slowing down and assessing which basic skill has failed, it helps to simplify the correction. Breaking all failures into this more simple equation makes training seem less magically and unattainable. If there are multiple skills failing, then assess which is failing is the most. Of course for this to work you need to have a basic, easy to explain correction for each of the basic skills.

One of the hardest parts about training someone to train is to accept that you can only work on one thing at a time (with a person). If you layer too many commands people tend to get frustrated.

[sorrelfilly721]

I think developing timing and feel have a lot to do with your ability to accurately observe and read the horse. For instance, when I am loading a horse who doesn’t want to get in, I watch him carefully (expression, body language) for signs he is not saying “no” (even if he’s not yet saying yes). I think that just takes time and a willingness to really understand the horse. The more time you spend with the horse, the better you will understand him. Although, I will say that I have seen plenty of people spend a lot of time with their horses and still not “get” them. I think to some degree, the ability to read is inherent. I think if you are trying to teach someone timing, you probably have to point out to the student the signs or indicators you see as a cue to act.

[Scribbler]

@CHT

For a “quick fix” the thing that helps is to help the person slow down and breath, and then assess which basic skill is failing. (stop, slow, go, back or turn). By slowing down and assessing which basic skill has failed, it helps to simplify the correction. Breaking all failures into this more simple equation makes training seem less magically and unattainable. If there are multiple skills failing, then assess which is failing is the most. Of course for this to work you need to have a basic, easy to explain correction for each of the basic skills.

One of the hardest parts about training someone to train is to accept that you can only work on one thing at a time (with a person). If you layer too many commands people tend to get frustrated.

Hmm, yes, in fact we aren’t teaching people to ride or “do horsemanship,” we are teaching them to train a horse every single time they get near one. If you go to a “training the trainers” workshop for human on human education, it’s all about pedagogy and course design, and assumes that the trainers attending know the skills already that they are teaching. For instance you wouldn’t send someone who didn’t know computers to a session that would train them to help clients use computers.

However, when you are teaching horsemanship, you are effectively training a trainer who doesn’t have the core skills yet. It’s like you are simultaneously teaching someone how to use a computer, and how to explain it to someone who needs instruction.

So that’s of course a big argument for school master horses to learn on and with but even there the horses are not static practice tools, but living creatures who will be changed with every interaction they have with humans.

[IPEsq]

I use a flag some. First, it was to help with the horse being really pushy for closer in work. The noise of it helped to get his attention, and it’s the length of a shorter dressage whip, so I wasn’t too clumsy with it. My horse had also gotten very sour to the whip, and rather than work with me on the ground, he was getting aggressive. I was able to sensitize him to the flag (a new thing) and work on that for a while to get his basic ground skills reinstalled. Then, I was able to go back to the longe whip, and he was fine with it–no longer sour/aggressive, because he understood from going through the same patters and same initial cues (before whip).

The timing/feel part of it is understanding first what you are doing as in know what response you are looking for when you ask a question…I think some people doing NH just go through the motions like it’s playing a game without thinking of what they want. The next part is reading the horse and then understanding how to adjust the next thing you do to be appropriate given how the horse just responded to the last thing. That takes practice (everyone can do) and awareness to very small details (not everyone can achieve). The same you can say for having “feel” while riding. Everyone can practice how to apply the aids to do XYZ, but not everyone has the awareness for the best of the fine tuning part.

[IPEsq]

@walktrot

IIf the goal is connect the cue to an action, it doesn’t make any difference if you use a hand, a whip, a flag, or a baseball bat. If you don’t have, or develop, the split second timing you are not likely to get the results you are looking for. I agree with Palm Beach, who advocates desensitizing the horse to bags, which do occasionally blow across our hayfield and get caught on a bush by the trail. I also agree with John’s admonition about teaching the cues on the ground so that you can adapt them to your riding. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone ride with a flag.

I’ve had some issues with my horse balking and refusing to go under saddle. I have picked up my flag from time to time and ridden with it to work on that issue because I was wearing out my usual aids, again during the time horse was sour to whips. It has helped.

[Palm_Beach]

@IPEsq

I’ve had some issues with my horse balking and refusing to go under saddle. I have picked up my flag from time to time and ridden with it to work on that issue because I was wearing out my usual aids, again during the time horse was sour to whips. It has helped.

One of the reasons horses become sour is timing - you are not releasing pressure when the horse makes an attempt in the right direction. When your horse really gets stuck on something, you have to release when he makes the slightest gesture towards the correct response. As in go all the way back as if he has no idea what “go” means. And when you are getting the correct response, you need to completely leave the horse alone - loose reins, no pressure or direction. You have to completely forget about contact, frame, using the hind end, etc until your Go button is totally established. That was the hardest thing for me to learn - I wanted a nice frame, the horse using himself, and I had a hard time just letting them lope around crooked with the head up.

[IPEsq]

@Palm Beach i do understand that. And this horse has made me realize my timing needed a lot of work both in hand and ridden. But he didn’t want to go forward because of some physical issues. I believe he understood the cues (even just using a voice cue, he’d balk and stop). After treating something, though, I’d have to get him to try moving again (because it might not hurt anymore). This is where I had trouble. And he is very smart. I started reward the tiniest single step. And before you know it, I had the world’a worst piaffe going because he would think he only had to give me a tiny step and no more. Then another tiny step till we were moving in place.

Anyway, if I used the flag from time to time to disengage his hind end while ridden the same and I’d do it on the ground, I could sometimes untrack his feet a little better and then once going reasonably well, I’d drop the flag. If I used the dressage whip, I could tap all day long and not get a response. If I got firm, I just got a kick out and still no forward. It’s been a problem a long time in the making and is taking a long time to undo in his head.

[Foxtrot_s]

I’ve had a plastic bag on the end of a buggy whip in my trailer for years and years - dating back to Pony Club days when a lot of the parents were green to ponies and needed help loading them. Not used it for a while because I’m not in PC any more.

But I give you : “If you give someone a hammer, they go looking for nails”, so that is something to be mindful of.

[Palm_Beach]

@Foxtrot's

I’ve had a plastic bag on the end of a buggy whip in my trailer for years and years - dating back to Pony Club days when a lot of the parents were green to ponies and needed help loading them. Not used it for a while because I’m not in PC any more.

But I give you : “If you give someone a hammer, they go looking for nails”, so that is something to be mindful of.

I would not use a plastic bag as a cue to move - there are too many plastic bag-like situations in the environment to have that be a learned stimulus. As CHT put it, you need to identify the reasons the horse won’t load and address those reasons - break it down into manageable pieces and work on each piece.

[Foxtrot_s]

The plastic bag is part of ground training - you use it very conservatively at first with a good sense of feel and timing.
If you are not confident in that, then it is not a good idea to be flapping a plastic bag…
The horse learns pretty quickly that it means forward and is rewarded with a release immediately, and thus becomes
de-sensitised to the plastic bags without having a fit. Works for me.

[Bluey]

Talking about desensitizing a horse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO_e93V-XJw

I don’t think a flag at the end of a stick is going to impress that horse very much.

[downen]

@Bluey

Talking about desensitizing a horse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO_e93V-XJw

I don’t think a flag at the end of a stick is going to impress that horse very much.

OMG I don’t think I’ve ever seen a T-Rex broke horse before!