I’ve been neutral on some of the techniques of “natural horsemanship” because (1) I do believe in ground work, (2) I’ve only seen basically competent people do groundwork, and (3) I haven’t actually seen anyone attempting joinup with a plastic bag on a stick, IRL.
But recently I was helping out a re-rider friend who has a horse that’s broke to longe, leads well enough, and knows walk halt backup in hand. Friend however was having problems co-ordinating her longeing and calming him down on the ground if he got hot and bothered. I don’t find him particularly difficult, myself, on the ground.
The interesting thing is that because my friend couldn’t really effectively longe him, she got interested in round penning because there’s less to co-ordinate. And she picked up the idea that shaking the halter lead rope was better than tapping with the whip to back up, because that wasn’t hitting him. But shaking the lead rope just confused and pissed him off, while my tap with the whip he fully understood, and quickly progressed to just reading a hand cue.
It got me thinking about how people who don’t have the timing and skills for other kinds of ground work or in hand might be drawn towards roundpenning as a concept, but not realize that it requires even more timing, skills, and feel than longeing or in-hand work.
And I’ve decided I just don’t see the point of the bag on the stick. You can move a horse over just fine with a whip. Shaking a bag is no less stressful than shaking a whip, it’s just that whips have bad associations for humans. I would shake the halter lead rope to send a horse away in an extreme situation, like it’s trying to bite or run me over. For me it’s a major reaction and punishment and I’ve only had to do it a handful of times. But shaking the lead rope repeatedly is basically hitting the horse in the face again and again with the halter.
Friend is now connected with a couple of good trainers who will help her through this.
Leaving me with a larger question of, how do people develop timing and feel, anyhow? What I do seems so obvious and natural to me, and in all honesty not that advanced or pro. But how do you communicate that skill to others?
I would have said the same thing until I watched the best horseman I know use a bag-on-a-stick to teach a horse to load. It was a very calm process and nobody, including the horse, got upset. It also took a couple of sessions, because, again, it was a slow, calm process.
However, this man also has the best timing and feel of anyone I’ve ever worked with. So, I’m pretty sure it’s the timing and feel that’s the important part, not the tool.
I think you’re right. But how do you teach it? I could describe how I learned to improve my timing and feel, and some input that was helpful along the way. But it was mostly self-learned. When I try to help out people who are “missing a beat” in their timing, I’m not sure how to help. Probably if I watched good trainers working with beginners I’d get some idea.
I imagine a lot of what you do has come with time, and it may not have been something you were conscious of the entire time.
For example, I’ve been riding and dealing with horses for most of my life. I’m sure a lot of my understanding of horses, my timing, feel, etc, has developed over those years. A couple years ago, I changed disciplines and a lot of it seems foreign to me. I’m still learning and feeling very green, despite having ridden and been around horses for so long. It’s finding how to apply my timing and feel differently, and getting better in general.
IMO, then, developing timing and feel comes from a variety of places. The willingness to learn, to make mistakes and build from those, and the genuine interest in wanting to do better for the horse and yourself. I think some riders are content to be a passenger, and they won’t get especially better because the focus and drive isn’t there. I know for myself, regardless of discipline, I just want to be a better horse person. There will be days or maybe weeks I feel inadequate, but I always try to stay with it and be mindful of my riding. I think it’s also having the right trainer or coach who can explain what you’re looking for, what it should feel like, when to discipline and how and when to reward and why.
Some people, too, I think will have better timing and feel, either in general or for specific maneuvers. Others won’t. It’s a skill that takes time and practice that’s separate from raw ability.
I don’t think a person can teach a person timing and feel. It takes a horse or, more likely many horses, to teach it. What a person can do is to help another person understand that timing and feel are the ultimate tools for horse training and that they should aspire to learn them. And most importantly, that the best way to learn them is to observe the horses and to develop sensitivity to what the horses’ reactions mean.
For myself, watching great horsemen both live and on video has been helpful because not only can I see the effect of their timing and feel but I can see their horses’ demeanors and actions. Having a person with timing and feel “narrate” what they are doing and what they are seeing can be helpful too. But watching and learning from the horses is the only way I know to get it in your being.
Thank goodness for our honest and patient partners.
I asked this exact question to a really great horseman who I work with. His timing and feel are impeccable, both on the ground and in the saddle. He said that it’s partly just innate ability/talent. The other part is just hours and hours and hours of practice on many different horses, some with guidance, some solo.
I think it’s incredibly hard (impossible?) to teach “feel,” refine it, sure, but I’m not so sure about teaching it to someone who really doesn’t have it.
I have watched many people either praising or disciplining at exactly the wrong moment…and just not really understanding the release of pressure. So agree with above, thankfully horses are generally kind and willing!
I’ve done the “plastic bag on a stick thing” and so can answer a bit about it. Actually, I’ve used a flag that isn’t as noisy as a plastic bag, but I’ve worked with horsemen who have used a plastic bag.
The flag helps in a few ways. One, it is just a thing that sounds weird (especially a plastic bag or bit of tarp sounds weird) and flaps around as might a wayward plastic baggie at a show grounds or on a trail ride, so it is a way to get your horse used to “stuff that might be scary” by exposing him to it in many different ways. I use it on the ground as something for my horse to follow, I sweep it under his nose or on the ground or under the belly or under the tail or drop it/touch it on the neck or back or head. I swing it around and make it loud and I just stand around with it. I’ve ridden with it as I would a whip (holding it, I mean); I’ve also swung it around overhead while riding, used it as a fly whisk, just moved it all around. I didn’t do all of this stuff the first time I introduced it, the process is gradual, just like anything else. I think it is a good thing to practice and learn and expose your horse to.
It is a useful tool to use for “go forward” or “move this part of your body” - the visual is more obvious than touching with a whip. Either the movement or the sound or both can be used as an aid to influence movement. It is also helpful to use along with your intent. I can stand in front of my horse and wave it all around and make noise and if my intent is not there, he will just stand still (without any sort of holding by a halter). Likewise, I can invite him to move forward by lifting it gently and he’ll move.
To me, using it in that way (as an extension of your “energy” / intent) helps to develop a language between you and your horse…it is part of “feel.”
It is interesting to be in a big clinic with 30 or so people all using their flags at the same time. The first time I did it, my horse was noticing all of the flags and horses all around. I just told him “that’s not for you” and got his attention on me and my flag. That was fun.
With regard to teaching timing, I think the best things are to watch, watch, watch someone who is really good at it, then have them help you by slowly breaking down a movement and walking you through step by step. I find watching the 7 Clinics DVDs helped me a lot to see what I was aiming for. Ultimately, though, the horse is the best teacher because he will move easily and in balance when your timing is correct and he will move with tension and resistance when your timing is incorrect.
I’ve combined flag work with clicker training and it has helped make my pony bolder. I wouldn’t say she’s been a scaredy cat, but by combining positive reinforcement with flag work, it has reinforced her desire to try new things. I think that transfers over to under saddle work also. Whenever we ride on my trails, she tries to drag me to see the neighbor’s cows, or will try to go chase the deer from their napping places!
I think it is just another tool that can help teach you a lot about how your energy, feel, and timing can affect your horse’s movement, attitude, willingness, and bravery.
I am a big fan of Andrew McLean for just this reason. They teach a fairly simple method of ground work that beginners like me could understand. I learned to control my horses feet with a light tap of the whip. They told me when to time the tap. And where to place the tap. It made sense to me.
My daughter’s coach is amazing with horses. When we had a difficult pony, I was in charge of the ground work. Coach showed me what to do. Pony reacted just as she was supposed to. I gave it a go and pony looked at me like I was an idiot. Obviously, timing and feel were nonexistent. Never did get whatever it was I was supposed to be doing. Enter the McLeans, probably doing the same thing, but presented in a way even an idiot could reproduce and pony’s ground work improved! And I have taught all our horses to be good citizens on the ground and to load nicely. All thanks to lessons with the McLeans.
Not a fan of bags on sticks or flags on sticks. My horses don’t get it (probably because I don’t get it).
Still can’t lunge anything. All our horses know how and are happily lunged by my daughter. I take over and they just stand there and look at me. I know how it works. I know how I am supposed to be doing it. Not sure why I can’t!
One difference in working with a horse smoothly as the first goal, or working to get a horse to do xyz or else, is learning to see when the horse is working with you and when it is resisting and trying to never go where the horse is not cooperating, but resisting.
Some trainers you can watch working with horses and it is like watching a dance.
Others, it is a battle, even some big name trainers.
There is no smoothness to what they do, horses resist constantly, raised heads, wringing tails, scooting around.
When I have asked such trainers about why take the fight to the horse, they say they do until the horse has a breakthrough and they don’t expect finesse first, that will come later.
Well, fine for them, but why go there at all, why not start with finesse in your communication right off?
Why have the horse resist at all?
Why work so hard to get a saddle on a colt with great care for the first saddling, then turn it loose to let it buck, unnecessarily creating the wrong muscle memory for a riding horse, when we can saddle and ride off without fireworks if we so wish?
Why jerk on ropes and reins, horses throwing heads around, why kick heartily to get a horse to go, horses wringing tails, both behaviors we don’t want later?
Why teach a horse to back off hitting it with a leadrope under the chin and around the head when it is standing there?
We can politely ask the horse to back off after getting it’s feet moving, that means getting the horse active and then asking, as part of moving, that it does so backwards, without the horse standing there resisting, confused, until it figures backing is what the one swinging at him wants it to do?
Some of the ground work and training certain trainers do is just not very good and they are not listening, saying it works for them.
Duh, it is not about if it works, but to consider there are better ways.
Then their followers are repeating those bad handling skills out there, when we really should be better educated by now.
The flag on a stick can be used properly, by not “attacking” the horse with it, but using it to get the horse’s attention when desired and the horse knowing it is one more communication tool and a smooth one, not a rude, scary one to scoot from.
There are a few things our riding instructor demanded and they were all based on the horse comes first, it deserves our utmost respect as our partner.
If we listen to what the horse is telling us about what we are doing, how it responds to us, then we know how to proceed.
Getting people to really listen to the horse is the task of us as the teachers.
Most people under our instructor program did fine, a few struggled, very rarely someone just didn’t “hear” horses, were tone deaf to them and those were just not successful in our riding instructor program.
You can’t fake feel around horses, horses tell on you.
There is a very prominent figure in the horse world that was the poster child for that.
Most people can and do learn.
A bag is confusing in the sense- does it create energy and used to direct like the whip? or is it something the horse should become “used to” and ignore?
This is the biggest issue I have seen when people try to use the flag. Pick a response, use the flag as that tool. Don’t use it for forward one day and expect the horse to ignore it the other, or vice versa, and make sure if you are able to follow though in the other ways you might use a whip (longing/in hand/ridden).
Well, yes, you use any flag in multiple ways, any tool you use you teach the horse to respond whoever you want when you are using it and horses don’t get confused if you are clear when you use it what you mean by it.
We didn’t have plastic bags, we used a tow sack or later paper feed sack and all along water from a hose also, to teach a horse of the different meanings of tools, along with other tools like ropes of all kinds.
As you go along, you work thru two paths, desensitizing and sensitizing.
The trick is knowing the difference and when which is appropriate, where some fail to use whatever they use correctly.
Humans are basically handsy, we depend on our hands for so, so much, also for communicating and that is why we prefer to use tools as an extension of our hands.
I think timing and feel start with empathy. There has to be something in the person that when the horse does not do what is asked, the person says “what did I do?”
I’m intrigued by Warwick Schiller right now because I think he is very good at describing what to look for in a horse’s behavior and what are the small signs where you should release pressure. I’m sure there are others out there that can do the same.
But I’ve certainly been in barns where the head trainer was more of a “make him do it” rather than “change how you are asking” and I think many amateurs and youth at this barn never really developed a sense of feel because it was the horses job to listen no matter how cloudy the signals were and no matter how far along in training the horse was.
the same thing can’t mean two different stimuli, IMHO. I think this invites a lot of unclear practices, esp for those of us who mainly do other sports, and have to meld the ideas with classical riding.
To me, it doesn’t matter what you have in your hand. A stick. A bag on a stick. A whip. Heck, a shovel (although your arm may get tired).
In my mind, the object is really only acting as an extension of your arm so it doesn’t really matter what you choose to hold.
Just like with anything, some people are more natural with developing time and feel, and others have a more difficult time. Same way that one person may pick up basketball easily, and another struggles. Or someone can pick up playing the piano easily, and the other struggles. We’re not all “blessed” with the same instincts and thoughts - that’s what make us different.
I find it easier to communicate that skill to others with in-person training. Someone who can be there to tell you that you release pressure too late, or too soon, or see what his ears did? Or what his hindquarters did? ETc. Etc. You need that instant feedback to learn if you are doing it right or wrong.
I’ve found that the same thing can work in opposite ways - like I said, it is the intent and “energy” put into the use of the tool that makes it useful for the intended purpose. Like a lunge whip, for example. When I was preparing my horse for a CTR event, I knew one of the things we might be asked to do was drag a log. Since I didn’t have any logs handy, but I did have my lunging whip in the arena, I grabbed it and held it such that the lash was dragging to the side of me or behind me - first on the ground when leading, and then while mounted. That doesn’t negate its usefulness as a lunge whip, but it did give my horse the beginning of a visual that when I am mounted there may be a time that I’m dragging something. He’ll see it out of the corner of his eye, there will be a sound associated with it, and it will be following him as we move along. I can still lunge him with it and use the lash as an extension of my arm to ask him to go forward.
Many of the people whom I’ve ridden with and taken lessons from who use this “style” of working with horses are lovely classical riders, and have a softness and lightness to their riding that is missing from much of what we’d see in the ring today.
For me it is not an either/or scenario.
It isn’t for everyone and that’s okay. Before I knew what I know, I’m sure I thought those people were cuckoo!
And to be fair, there are some people who get really aggro with it. I’ve seen some of those people. [B]Like Bluey indicated (sorry, don’t know how to multi-quote):
"Some trainers you can watch working with horses and it is like watching a dance.
Others, it is a battle, even some big name trainers.
There is no smoothness to what they do, horses resist constantly, raised heads, wringing tails, scooting around.
When I have asked such trainers about why take the fight to the horse, they say they do until the horse has a breakthrough and they don’t expect finesse first, that will come later.
Well, fine for them, but why go there at all, why not start with finesse in your communication right off?
Why have the horse resist at all?"[/B]
I watched one guy like that - he seemed really aggressive in getting after their horses, versus coming from a place of lightness to begin with. He said that a horse needed to have its energy brought up in order to learn how to bring it down. To me it seemed too aggressive and not how I want to work with my horses. I don’t want to “attack” first and then ease up on the horse. I want it to be like the dance that Bluey mentioned.
Understanding how to use this tool has only helped me in my horsemanship. But it isn’t a necessity of course, just another tool. If you don’t need it, then great! I only turned to this technique because a classical dressage trainer had run out of ideas (or interest or skill) in how to help me with a difficult horse. I spent a lot of time using it to try to improve my feel and timing. I put it away for a long while. If I need it again, I know how to use it.
Yes, that’s very true. Having in-person help can really help you understand the nuance of it and what to look for. One horseman I worked with one-on-one broke things down even further and his insight was amazing and spot on and gave me another thing to work on. It is a never-ending journey which has so many paths forward, none of which are the one right way. That’s what makes working with horses so fun!
Yes, that, students, human or horse or dog or whatever will learn and respond to the way the trainer works.
I too have seen trainers that always ask and demand, horses adapt to that, not all horses are happy with that kind of demand, but they all learn to respect that trainer and do as told.
When you go work on cattle, those horses may do it all well, but they lack expression.
The judge can tell if the horse is mechanical, trained to the movements, or if the horse is truly working the cow directly, not always listening to see if the human wants other.
Those are not as free and expressive as those that have been given a task, shown how to do it and then let do it in their own way, not micro-managed.
In dressage, some top riders at times and with some horses go there too, “write over the lines” when letting the horse self carry and do things on their own, judges like it, but are tentative when judging that, not sure that is what they are supposed to be judging at all, but the more mechanical, if perfectly executed performances.
Many decades ago that was one of the differences between traditional german dressage training, exact always in the forefront, expression later and “other”, that combined both all along.
Both ways of training are fine, we have horses do our bidding according to each human’s preferences and also some horses fit one kind of trainer better or not so much because of those differences, but all are valid.
I like to let horses be part of the conversation, which when performing a task may get iffy if the horse is not quite clear or misunderstands what we are doing.
That is a trade-off we have to be aware of, provide for and not let that frustrate at any time, but try again.
That is why it is hard for some to let the horse be part of what we do too much, if mistakes because of that are not acceptable to some, they need 100% control and demand that.
I use a small piece of the plastic bag on my whip for groundwork. Mainly cause I taught my pony a touch with the bag is move over or whatever I’m asking for and it much lighter/sensitive than the whip. Plus I was naughty and accidentally taught him that whips are meant for scratches and especially around the hind legs and sheath area trying to make him safer for sheath cleaning. So now if you touch his back leg with a whip he spreads for easier access. Not sure I want to train that out of him.
You’re right, that timing is something that comes naturally to some people and hard for others. I did this writeup on another forum ten years ago, but still remember the night vividly. I was basically trying put on a trainer/coach cap with someone who didn’t know anything about Natural Horsemanship. She was struggling with her horse, and asked me for advice/lessons. Unpaid, just having a one on one powow.
“Resistance Free” Demonstration
Me: “Put your hands up like this.” (I motion to have two hands up as if placing on a wall, palms aimed at me.)
Her: She puts her hands up, and says “OK.”
Me: I moved my hands toward her slowly, plenty of warning, no surprises. My palms touch hers, and I keep pressing. She tries her best to keep her palms where the started, resisting me with all her might. I keep pressing until she’s nearly off balance before I let up.
Me: “Now, did I tell you to resist me?”
Her: "Oh, wow, no you didn’t! I just guess I . … "
Me: “Now put them up again.”
Her: “OK.” (Puts her hands up again)
Me: I move my hands up again toward her slowly, no surprises, and I put my palms on hers and start pressing again. This time she anticipates what I’m doing, and starts moving hers backward lightly to her shoulders, so I’m not pressing hardly at all but her hands are moving backwards.
Me: “Now, that time, I didn’t tell you NOT to resist me, did I?”
Her: "Well no, I guess not! But I just assumed - "
Me: “See, that little exercise teaches two things. One, that it’s the most natural thing in the world to resist against someone when they are pushing\poking\prodding you. Horses and humans are alike in that respect. Second, we are fortunate enough to have verbal communication, but we’re not so lucky with horses. Resistance Free is just a matter of trying to get the horse to understand what you want him to do, so that he doesn’t resist you. The more you get to work with your horse with the resistance free goal in mind, the more he’ll learn to do what you want so that he doesn’t resist you when you ask it.”
From there, we went on to talk about ask, tell, spank. (She really didn’t like the word “spank,” so I kept emphasizing that it doesn’t mean literally, it means to do something the horse doesn’t like or make him do work.) And to always reward the moment you get the least little try, because the horse will learn to understand what you’re asking for when you switch to rewarding.
I had such fun. It’s a little painful for me to watch someone else learning as I keep seeing her “doing it wrong,” (good example was that she had him in crossties after our lesson and she wanted him to move off to the side as another horse was coming down the aisle - so she got into shoving battle with him). But if we can keep it up, I think she’ll get the hang of it.
I coached her through lunging him at the walk and trot - for the first time ever. She had never ever lunged him before! After an hour she was saying she wanted more lesson!
=====
editing to add … back to the bag on a stick thing, I think that’s mostly about what is effective for the horse. I’m dealing with one right now who does not even blink an eyelash when I flip whips around him or even make contact with some pretty good whomps, he just stares at me. So I need to up my level of cuing in order to get any reaction from him at all.
I only use a bag on a stick to desensitize. Horses need to learn to ignore things in their environment that have no meaning. A plastic bag blowing across the ground or someone ripping open a new plastic bag encased set of polos should NOT mean “leap away.” I do not want my horses responding to anything other than my leg, seat and hand, so I train them to ignore all kinds of noisy moving things.
Timing comes with experience, so don’t be afraid to get out there and work with the horse. The more you do, the more you get. It’s not rocket science, it’s putting the time and logic in.
I don’t lunge, it’s pretty pointless both mentally and physically. If I have a horse that is not ready to ride, we do groundwork until it’s ready to ride and then we ride.
