The "act spooky game" - how to fix this?

[HorseBuff]

Sorry so lon![]( but I want to put the whole scenario out there. I should also say the my mare is not a spooky horse at all.

Not sure how to “fix” an issue I’m having with my 5yo mare. I am pretty sure this issue started at the end of the summer/early fall.

She accidentally learned that if she get’s big and acts spooky, I finish what we’re doing and she gets what she wants (food usually). The last day we did hand grazing she acted very spooky (late Sept). I realized at the end of our walk that every time I said we were done (I say "I-2-3, up, and she knows it’s time to move on and she had been very good about it), she would act spooky, I would let her graze a bit to calm down, then rinse and repeat. It finally dawned on me after the 5th or 6th time what had happened. Ugh. We had been hand grazing daily all spring and summer and this was the first time she’d done this.

We stopped hand grazing after that because she and all the other horses started acting crazy with a turn in weather (New Hampshire). I also think she started to get ulcers which we are in process of healing now.

So, fast forward to this past Sunday (early December). We had a photographer out to take photos and I thought her paddock would be a good place. It was early and she hadn’t finished her morning hay. Part way through our photoshoot, she started the “act spooky game”. After a few attempts and my realizing that we were not going to get any good photos, we finished our session. It was a very windy day and the horses had been in the day before due to weather so she was super distracted as well. However, I know the difference between her real spook and her “act spooky game”. Again, I accidentally allowed her to win and go back to her hay.

Since Sunday, she’s been fussy and a real bugger, guessing she’s vying for that leadership role she likes to challenge me on every now and again… The horses are in again today (extreme cold) so I went in to hand walk her in the indoor arena. We got around the arena a few times and then the “act spooky game” started again. We finished our lap then I took her back to her stall because I just am not sure how to fix this and it makes me really nervous. No one else was with us and I’m a believer of better safe than sorry.

Making her “work” (ie., circles) is only going to get her riled up more. We tried that for something else she was doing last spring. Would making her back up help? That’s another form of work and she will back up for me whenever I ask. I hate to make backing up a “bad” thing though but it may be my best choice, I’m not sure. It did help for the earlier issue (nipping). We do ground work and just did some on Monday after Sunday’s botched photoshoot. She was very good. That included some lunging, shoulders in, leg yields, backing up, walking at the pace I’m walking, stopping, turning, etc. She thought about acting out once but I got her attention and she made the right choice.

She will go through these little “teenager” stages then settles back to her mellow, silly self so I know this can be fixed and it’s not forever but I’m pretty sure I’m in a spot of trouble with this behavior. It makes me really nervous and she seems to be getting rather good at it. She doesn’t do it under saddle, thankfully! Just on the ground.

FYI - I board with about 70 horses and we do not have a round pen so please don’t suggest using one. [IMG]https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/tf6/2/16/1f609.png) It’s also winter so no at liberty work in her paddock. Too icy!

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[4horses]

Are there other horses in the arena? She needs more exercise. She comes out full of energy and looking for something to spook at. Here in Florida we finally had a freeze. The horses all wanted to go for a gallop rather than eat breakfast. Even my very mellow mare was bucking and spooking in her paddock.

If i think my horse is faking it to get out of work, i say “quit that!” and encourage them to move forward. My horses are allowed to be fearful of something but i expect them to pass the scary object while moving forward. I don’t care if they want to side pass away from it, but i do expect them to go around it.

My old mare will fake being lame to get out of doing something she doesn’t want to do. Leading her back to the drylot after being in the pasture, and suddenly her feet become dead weights and she can’t walk because she’s 3 legged lame. This starts right when you get to the gate of the drylot. Turn around and she’s speed walking as fast as possible in the other direction. She 26 with dsld, so yes she’s lame but not to that extent. When she doesn’t want to do something she starts exaggerating how much it hurts so she doesn’t have to… And yes she got away with it because i was thinking she must have injured herself, let me take her in the other direction and watch her walk.

She was probably the worst horse I’ve had for pretend spooking when she didn’t want to do something. My other horses are more honest. It doesn’t take them long to realize if i get spooky, my rider gets scared and takes me home (or lets me walk instead of making me trot). That old mare has always been such a character…She has an opinion about everything. She will walk up to the electric fence and you can see the debate - should I touch it or not? Is it on?

[RedHorses]

I have one that is spooky, but the action is the same. Your mare is not paying attention to you when she plays the spooky game. Monday you did all that work and managed to catch her as she started thinking about the spooky game and got her attention back on you.

Mine, because he is spooky, also had to learn to let go of the rabbits but he had to pay attention to me anyway. I took him out yesterday and decided to handwalk around the woods… in the strong, cold winds… through trees covered in icy snow… It was noisy and he didn’t want to stay in there and considered bolting over me to go back to the barn. He didn’t because I saw it and got him to listen to me when I stopped him before he lifted a foot off the ground. I debated quitting and taking him back, but I was pretty sure if I moved towards the field he would bolt to get out of the noisy trees.

We walked. He was on edge looking at everything. I watched where his front feet were. As soon as a hoof landed in front of my feet I halted him and backed him up 2-3 steps. If he stood still after I took the pressure off I praised him and we continued, but if he stepped forward he had to take that step back again. As we progressed the halts were fewer. He had to be sufficiently aware of where I was and how fast I was walking to be successful. If he focused too much on the scary stuff he would get ahead and I corrected him.

By watching his feet (peripheral vision) I could stop and back before he pushed into me, before he bolted, before he dragged me faster than I could go, etc. On days he’s not spooky so much as lacking focus we halt, back up, turn on haunches or forehand, “leg” yield, change direction, stand, etc with my focus on “pay attention to me”. As soon as he looks elsewhere I ask him to do something, and I praise him when he does it.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹It’s about giving the horse something else to focus on. It’s about the human focusing on what they want the horse to do rather than stopping the unwanted behavior. It doesn’t have to be a big deal - how hard is halt, back, stand? Very low key, repeated as needed works too.

[kande04]

If you’re confident enough then be the leader and ignore her drama. If you’re not confident enough to ride through it then keep both of you far enough inside your comfort zones so that you can be the leader.

My horse is usually at least somewhat nervous about the other end of the arena. He’s not faking, he’s just a hyper-vigilant horse who doesn’t want to be the one who gets eaten.

We’ve spent a lot of time in the arena and he’ll usually follow me down to the other end and work calmly there as long as I go first and stay with him. So I’d say that he sees me as someone he can depend on to keep him safe/safer.

If however, I get on him and he has to go first then he may or may not be comfortable enough at the other end. If he isn’t then we start in the near end and then gradually work our way closer and closer to the other end until he’s seen enough of what’s down there so that he can feel confident that he’s safe.

What I don’t do is trivialize his fear, or believe that he’s faking his concern, or think there’s some kind of a magical technique that will overcome thousands of years of evolution.

[Angela_Freda]

She was in the day before, and it was windy.
Spooking in that situation isn’t acting.

Set her up to succeed. On the photo day for example, get her out to get some energy out, free in a paddock or on a lunge line on the day of the pics, but also the day before when turn out didn’t happen.
That’s only fair, to expect good behavior when it’s possible for her to behave because she’s been allowed to move and get some energy out, but also her routine hasn’t been abandoned.

She lunges, so lunge her. Ever day or twice a day when they can’t get out.

[beau159]

@HorseBuff

Not sure how to “fix” an issue I’m having with my 5yo mare. I am pretty sure this issue started at the end of the summer/early fall.

She accidentally learned that if she get’s big and acts spooky, I finish what we’re doing and she gets what she wants (food usually). The last day we did hand grazing she acted very spooky (late Sept). I realized at the end of our walk that every time I said we were done (I say "I-2-3, up, and she knows it’s time to move on and she had been very good about it), she would act spooky, I would let her graze a bit to calm down, then rinse and repeat. It finally dawned on me after the 5th or 6th time what had happened. Ugh. We had been hand grazing daily all spring and summer and this was the first time she’d done this.

Making her “work” (ie., circles) is only going to get her riled up more. We tried that for something else she was doing last spring. Would making her back up help? That’s another form of work and she will back up for me whenever I ask. I hate to make backing up a “bad” thing though but it may be my best choice, I’m not sure. It did help for the earlier issue (nipping). We do ground work and just did some on Monday after Sunday’s botched photoshoot. She was very good. That included some lunging, shoulders in, leg yields, backing up, walking at the pace I’m walking, stopping, turning, etc. She thought about acting out once but I got her attention and she made the right choice.

She will go through these little “teenager” stages then settles back to her mellow, silly self so I know this can be fixed and it’s not forever but I’m pretty sure I’m in a spot of trouble with this behavior. It makes me really nervous and she seems to be getting rather good at it. She doesn’t do it under saddle, thankfully! Just on the ground.

I bolded what you need to do when she “acts spooky”. Basically, keep her busy! Give her mind something to do. Give her requests/commands that you want her to do. Use your body language to move her body.

You don’t need a roundpen to do this. You don’t even need good footing to do this (can do “mild” variations of it if she acts spooky while you are leading her across an icy area). It’s just all about redirecting her attention to you, BE THE LEADER, and ask her to do something.

Just stay consistent with it.

Personally, I don’t like lunging. I don’t see the purpose in sending the horse 'round and 'round in endless circles, unless I just want to get them in shape for going 'round and 'round in endless circles. shrug My horse should pay attention to me whether they are fresh or worn out.

[ChestnutArabianMare]

What does “acting big and getting spooky” look like? Does she get pushy? Dance around and pull on the lead rope? Teleport?

From what you’ve said, it sounds like she’s not had a lot of chance to burn off steam - I’d attribute a lot of the behavior to being cooped up recently. They also like to test the boundaries around age five in my experience. That said, it’s still not acceptable for her to be a jerk.

I like circles in the sense of, “Do half a circle and change directions.” Then rinse and repeat. They don’t have time to build up a head of steam and it keeps them engaged d/t the frequent cues. I usually do it just at a walk or a jog. Works well even on slippery footing at a slow speed and they don’t seem to get too amped up.

About twice a year my energetic Arab mare just has a super crazy day where she needs to do nothing but run for about 5 minutes before she can focus. I let her loose and let her go. I interrupt the running after a few laps and ask for a direction change, which she does on cue - a neat little roll back and take off in the other direction. After those 5 minutes and she’s burned off the crazies, I ask her to stop, reattach her to a long lead rope and start with the direction changes on a line at a lower rate of speed.

Backing up in different directions is also good - like backing in a circle or backing in and out of cones or backing in a figure eight. Find tasks that engage their brain.

Do you know any good instructors who teach groundwork? Might not be a bad idea to have a lesson so you can make sure your timing is good.

[kande04]

@Angela Freda

She lunges, so lunge her. Ever day or twice a day when they can’t get out.

I also believe that much of what we think is excess energy is actually the horse’s attempt to stay safer when they’re in an environment that worries them. IOW, they want to be already moving when the mountain lion comes after them.

Lungeing often allows them to both move, and to get a good look at all the things that would concern them if they hadn’t already had enough time to see them while they were lungeing.

I don’t lunge my horse to wear him down before I get on because I don’t want to tire him before I ride. But if he’s looky I do take him around to see everything, and I do at least trot him both ways so that he has enough time to really look before I get on.

[SharonA]

Give her something more to do… clicker training, hand-walking over poles and weaving in and out of cones, short patterns with quick small rewards, etc. She is a healthy young horse and she is bored/restless and doesn’t know what to do with herself. Mares! They are opinionated, but once your relationship is solid, she will save your life.

[x-halt-salute]

I don’t think there’s a one-size-fits-all solution to this sort of problem. Some horses sometimes need to burn off some energy before they’ll settle; some horses need to settle before they start moving forward, else they’ll work themselves up more and end up lathered and blowing with their tail over their back … and still plenty of nonsense/worry left in the tank. Some horses respond well to being kept mentally engaged and having to think about what you’re asking; some horses will get overwhelmed and mentally melt down if they’re asked to do a lot of thinking work when they’re struggling to focus. Some horses relax when they’re allowed to check out their surroundings; some horses do better when laser focused on their handler/rider and not allowed to look for monsters.

All of the methods that get talked about are going to work for some of the horses some of the time. Some might even work for most horse most of the time. But I’m a believer in figuring out what works best for your individual horse, and paying attention to what their needs are in the moment. IMO horsemanship should be a two-way conversation, and that means listening to situational information, not just training advice from other humans. Sounds like OP is starting to figure her horse’s behavior out and may just need some confidence.

I’ve currently got a hot horse in injury rehab, and what’s working well to limit spooking during very limited, controlled exercise in frigid weather is doing things that require thinking in proximity to the stimuli that cause spooks. But when the same horse is in regular training and has an electric day, adding more thinking work into the mix usually backfires, and more effective calming happens from going on “honey badger” walks (we walk where I want to go, I hold the lead rope securely but otherwise don’t pay much attention to horse, and we just go places until horse stops spooking and just quietly follows my lead). I’ve had other horses that can achieve the same result with a simple 5 minutes of longeing. Get to know your horse and pay attention to what they communicate about their anxieties and needs.

[Angela_Freda]

@kande04

I also believe that much of what we think is excess energy is actually the horse’s attempt to stay safer when they’re in an environment that worries them. IOW, they want to be already moving when the mountain lion comes after them.

Lungeing often allows them to both move, and to get a good look at all the things that would concern them if they hadn’t already had enough time to see them while they were lungeing.

I don’t lunge my horse to wear him down before I get on because I don’t want to tire him before I ride. But if he’s looky I do take him around to see everything, and I do at least trot him both ways so that he has enough time to really look before I get on.

Indeed. And lunging, done correctly, is almost riding and can reinforce or add skills. It doesn’t have to be racing around on a 20M endlessly circling.
Spiral in and out, poles, tons of transitions, … So much you can do to engage them, get them thinking, get them acclimated, and get them focused and give them something to do when they can’t get turnout or ridden.

[HorseBuff]

Thank you all for your advise! We actually had a very good groundwork lesson a couple of days after with a new instructor I’m working with. She showed me some things to do and how to hold my body better. Apparently when I’m tense, I am tense towards my horse which makes her insecure. The instructor said to my horse, I look like I’m going to bite her. She showed me how to soften my shoulders (where I hold my tension) and how to lead better. It worked really well. As soon as I relaxed my shoulders, my mare lowered her head.

As for accidentally teaching her that spooking gets her what she wants, that is true. I would have never intentionally taught her that one! Now I have to figure out how to unteach her. Time and patience I think. For this mare, mental stimulation and interest are key. She’s smart and curious so I need to figure out how to use that going forward.

As for timing with photos, yes, in hindsight I should have rescheduled. We had already rescheduled twice due to weather so I really wasn’t thinking of what state of mind my mare might be in. It’s all a learning process.

[PaddockWood]

What a great update! And speaking for myself, oh how hindsight is 20/20 and the training mistakes I have made over the years! Oy. To have back all the lessons learned with all my horses would be a treasure. Instead, we have to learn to enjoy the journey and do the best we can.

[J-Lu]

Glad to read your update!!

My horse was very, truly spooky/panicky as a youngster (4-6) on the ground. Stuff happened and I sent him to a dressage-riding NH trainer (I never paid attention to NH before). He taught the horse all of these Parelli-based groundwork things (I was so adverse to the name Parelli), and his timing was excellent. I took regular lessons and learned the groundwork. My very smart horse (I suspect yours is, too) finally succumbed to learning them (he had to be taught how to really learn, because he had the attention span of a gnat). To this day, I pull out these exercises when he truly is spooked or pretends to spook. Since he knows them, I can very easily redirect his brain back to my without being strong at all. This has SAVED MY BUTT many, many times at home and away.

My horse is 10 now, and while quite confident on the ground, my trainer and I laugh that he pulls out the “spooky game” when I pick up the reins after the warm up for “real work”. Oh, that thing he’s been fine going by for the last 20 minutes is now going to kill him. When he spooks, his forehand drops out from under you and he whirls to the side - it’s hard on your back because he’s very athletic. I had initially positioned him in shoulder-in for this kind of stuff (last couple of years), now I remind him with a spur in his side that will get very strong and uncomfortable if he spooks into it. He basically knows that I will position him and he better listen because I’m not afraid of what he’ll throw at me even if it kills me. He’ll go down with me and I always tell him that if he kills me, I’ll haunt him from the grave.

I can always tell a “spooky game” is coming if I’m a) increasing the work load and b) he becomes intently interested in something outside of the arena (ears super pricked and forward, head in the air, hesitation to go forward, wants to slam on the brakes while looking at it) or in the arena (ears super-pricked, unusually strong desire to look a deep footprint or whatever). Now, I take advantage of that energy level because his gaits get phenomenal, but I really have to tell him “you’re working, and the undersaddle work isn’t a democracy. You’re going to work harder if you’re spooky, even if I have to get off and free-longe you (He has learned to longe on a line, now I don’t use the line and he goes in circles around me and on voice commands)”. He gets it, and his gaits have been really developing. I mention this because my horse used “the spook game” to get out of harder undersaddle work (he’s smart and would rather be grazing, would drive the tractor if he had thumbs), I wonder if your smart horse will try this under saddle when the work steps up, too!

Note: I know this horse well enough to tell “the spooky game” from a real spook, and don’t treat what he considers a truly scary situation the same way. I know he has to mentally process really scary situations and I go into support mode, asking for but expecting a little progress (even tiny progress) to get through.

Good luck!

[Wanderosa]

@beau159

Personally, I don’t like lunging. I don’t see the purpose in sending the horse 'round and 'round in endless circles, unless I just want to get them in shape for going 'round and 'round in endless circles. shrug My horse should pay attention to me whether they are fresh or worn out.

I look at lunging as a way for a) me and a new horse to suss out each other’s body language and work out the best way to connect with each other; b) to build connection; c) assess the level of focus and work on bringing it to me. I used to ride a 30yo Trakkner gelding that really needed 10 minutes on the lunge to get his old man coughs out and clear his airways before you got on. Lunging him changed my whole outlook on the practice. He was so well schooled and attuned to people and the whole thing was clearly a game for him to see how fast he could figure you out. A deep inhale or exhale, a subtle turn of your body, this horse was laser attuned.

Still, I agree it isn’t right for every horse and every situation. OP, what about long-lining? Is that something that the new groundwork instructor could teach you? My trainer often long-lines young or reactive horses. She even takes them out on trails that way. It offers more control than hand walking but takes some skill to use effectively.

Beyond that, I suppose the key is just to remember that most horses desperately want someone else to be in charge. I’ve told the story on here before of what happened when we had 2 young OTTBs join our little herd of 2 massive draft geldings in their late teens. The OTTBs had lived alone together for about a year and their behavior evolved in a little isolation bubble. They thought they were hot stuff and eagerly engaged my big guys in King of the Hill over the fence. The drafts were unimpressed and moved off. When I decided it was safe to allow the 4 horses to mingle, the draft geldings used their massive size to matter-of-factly put the OTTBs in their place when they acted rudely but eased up and accepted them into the fold the instant they behaved according to equine standards of politeness. The OTTBs happily fell into the bottom slots in the hierarchy. The most interesting thing for me was how relieved the OTTBs seemed to have the older horses in charge after that long year of being on their own. It was like middle schoolers who are eager to stay home alone until the washing machine floods the basement. Lol.

Your mare probably thought it was fun to play spook the first few times. Then she saw that you got scared and it scared her and created a negative feedback loop. Sounds like things are going much better in your update. Good luck! You two are so adorable together!