I will say only one more thing…I think the word they used was probably “schwung.” 
Maria likes salt, water, and discarded body cells. 
How odd!!!
Its funny, there are a lot of people who now ride English/dressage who use to ride western…they are now ashamed to admit it!! 
there was definitely a reason for that. she doesn’t work junior or others the same way. but also several people just out and out strove to get bad pictures of her and taking some extreme moments wanted to make it seem as if she always schools like that.
it’s just as valid to say kyra always rides like the last photo in her book.
[This message was edited by slc on Dec. 03, 2001 at 05:28 PM.]
Wait, I’ve forgotten what the track is!!!
I’m getting a little nervous about all this swearing stuff. I’m afraid Erin might fire me, and replace me with Terrible Brunhilde! 
I know! Why not start an argument (er discussion) about three-tracking vs. four-tracking. We haven’t done that in a while.
Snipped this q&a from a medical message board. Had to cut the names of the posters, since it’s supposed to be a private board. Anyone want to charge Anky with horse abuse?
----- Original Message -----
> Has anyone seen or heard of a nuchal ligament being injured? I have
> heard among dressage circles that some of the exercises, i.e.
> stretching the
neck
> down, etc. can cause nuchal ligament tearing. No specifics as to how
> these injuries were diagnosed or what signs were seen. I’ve never seen
> or heard
of
> nuchal ligament injury in any horse.
> Thanks for any comments on this.
>
>
Reply:
Dr Novak, et al in Germany, reported on a group of dressage horses with postural headshaking, ie only when put on a bridle contact, with a finding of a nuchal ligament insertion desmopathy. These were horses which trained overflexed through the poll and once symptomatic could no longer train in dressage, but would not headshake if ridden on a long rein. They had variable radiographic changes of dystrophic calcification at the insertion on the occiput. Some were confirmed by local blocking to have pain there - cessation of headshake. I have had several such cases and lateral xrays and/or ultrasonography demonstrate the lesions. Horses should never train nose past poll.
Her contact with Junior’s mouth NEVER looked hard. Not once - so I would disagree that he was “hanging” on her hands. But to each their own opinion.
She is the one that asked us how we thought the horse was. I told her. I realize that the horse is a 4 year old. But this person thought that this was a good frame? This is what I perceved her to be saying. I was just telling her that he was in fact not stepping up as far as she thought, and he was so far behind the verticle to be dumping on the forehand. Having a baby on the forehand is expected, but it could be lessened if she would sit up and back, and push his nose in front of the verticle, so that he is a bit more free to balance himself. I did say that I thought he was a lovely horse! Are we not supposed to give an honest reply when one is asked? 
You’re lucky. Sounds like a good barn. Most of the ones I’m at (and have been at in the past) are truly filled with an overwhelming majority of DQs (go figure ) who buy advanced horses and think you are holding them back by teaching them basics. They seem to feel that if the horse can do it, they can ride it. Thus the reason I now like to focus on lower level riders with their own horses.
LOL Neighsayer! It’s raining here! Ha! Besides us DQ’s only drink bottled European water!
Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!
I have to say I’m impressed with the MasterClass.
I’m one of those people who has ALWAYS been told “leg into hand. hand and leg. When you ask for downward transitions, and halts, use your leg too!” etc…and LOTS of hand with LOTS of leg for otb/etc…
Well… recently purchased first horse (actually, my dad purchased. merry christmas to me!), and, albeit EXCEPTIONALLY green (w/t/c, is balanced, but that’s about it), too much rein just makes his head come UP. when I remind myself to DITCH the rein, or lengthen it a couple inches, suddenly he’s there.
I’ve also been told to always use leg, and LOTS of it. The stronger the leg, the better. I still don’t know what to think re: that one…
OTOH, maybe, lower level horses don’t require the same “hand or leg, no both” regime??
I don’t know. I’d certainly be interested in learning more about it.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Lindsay & Chance
“The problem is not that I am insane,
it’s the everyone else is sane.”
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
And most of those french swear words originate from name of things used in the church.
Tabernacle, Chalice, etc. Very insulting to a stringly catholic francophone.
Hang tight, Velvet. Just a week or so ago, I found an obscure word website. I recall one of the words being “contranym.”
I will be back if I can find this site again.
one can tell how hard the contact really is on a horse being ridden on contact? I’d imagine his nose is cranked shut, since that seems to be the fashion, and that alone tells me that the horse is not supple and relaxed- can’t relax aND SOFTEN THE JAW IF IT’S CRANKED SHUT. Darn caplocks.
I have been reading this thread with interest (well morbid curiousity). I will use ‘deep’ in warm up and I can put the horses head where ever I want also.
But in my Very humble opinion, the horse that is photographed is not ‘deep’, he is on the forehand and overbent. Can you see the rider tipped forward on to her crotch, and the way her elbows have come back behind her, she is being propelled forward by her horse. She has no connection in her seat, it is all in the hands. If this horse didn’t have a flash on then its mouth would probably be open (you can see some parting already). This is not a good photo of how deep is ridden. This exact observation is why riding deep cannot be explained over the internet and even through photos. Why? Because of the above photos very reason. This horse is a lovely horse, and perhaps this was a bad moment…
I willnot go into the mechanics of riding deep, because as others have said it is a feel and should not be used for more than a training tool for a few moments, and then you ride back in a normal ‘frame’ (whatever that may be on the horse you are riding).
I donot, however, advocate deep frame work for horses, that cannot show forward impulsion first, and cannot show reaching for the bridle first. Only after they have established the basics for going forward, will the use of this method help. I have however used it on some hotter types of horses, and then used it on a smallish circle to get them back to me, incorporating the use of major half halts as well. I have found that this has soften their back to become a bit more responsive to me.
Now as for the question is it okay to train a horse to be constantly broken at the 3rd or 4th verebrae? No never. And there is no but in that sentence. If you are training that way for an hour a day, then that is not dressage training, you may as well put a western saddle on and start doing western pleasure (no offence to western people out there… 
). Think of deep as an exercise, like you would use spirals, shoulder fore, shoulder in and leg yeild. Don’t think of it as a method. It is not a method, it is an exercise. If we think of it that way, then we can go back to the age old saying, get taught it before you try it. I know that I wouldnot attempt to train a green (green being not knowing much, not young) horse using deep if I had not been taught how to correctly feel it. I was lucky to have a great instructor who successfully ( I think) taught me the way to use this exercise.
We need to move away from the thought that we would ride this way all the time, and more towards this is just an exercise. Now there is some discussion as why we would do leg yeild (head away from the direction the horse is moving) when we want to teach a horse to basically always follow the direction of its nose… but again leg yeild CAN be a useful tool…
So this debate goes on and on… it will go on for as long as this world stays as one.
If you don’t think it is a good exercise, then don’t use it. But don’t stand back and criticise others for using it, particularly those that use is to its full effectiveness. If you have tried it and not liked it, that is great that you came to your own conclusion through feeling it first hand. But for those that do like using it, don’t get caught up in it. Do it for short periods, and use it as it was meant to be used.
JMHO…
Cosmo
“Acceptance of the bit happens in the haunches, not in the mouth.”
Dr. Thomas Ritter
I always want to mangle the quote from “Field of Dreams” and say “If you fix your position and ride correctly, it will come together!” It’s so true that there are those who just want to ride on a horse and not work. Gee, isn’t that what it’s supposed to LOOK like when you’re at the top? Well, gee, honey, it only looks easy because they’ve developed the muscle, skill, and tact with their body, and the subsequent communication skills with their horse!!!
I love these people who think that it’s all going to come together by osmosis, or chanting a mantra…or something just as absurd. It takes good old plain sweat, tears and (as was pointed out) hot tubs!
The other thing that gets me is when a student knows they have to work hard for to get to that point, but forget that a green horse has to work just as hard. Hmmm…if a rider needs to sometimes feel like a pretzel to get corrected and brought out of bad habits, doesn’t the same thing sometimes apply to a horse? If it’s not natural…it takes work. And let me tell you, most of what we ask of dressage horses is NOT natural. You are building on something natural in most cases, but for an all around dressage horse you are backfilling holes in their talent and making them work beyond themselves…just as any athlete (including dressage riders) has to do.
Maybe some of this is also the problem with riding “deep.” People don’t realize that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Most of the time it’s not that difficult, but sometimes the first few times you try something new it’s not easy and it doesn’t look pretty. I love my coach. She always asks if you want to “die in beauty at a lower level” or really ride and work to the point where you find yourself close or at your dreams?
I want to kiss you for this paragraph that you wrote way back on page 5 or something: “As the horse’s musculature develops and he learns to lift his withers and keep them lifted while bringing his hindlegs under and sitting, you can then ask him to bring his poll up so that it is the highest point without risking the withers dropping and the horse hollowing his back. I see far too many pictures of horses whose polls are the highest point but to the detriment of everything else. Poll up is last on my list of things to do when asking for collection. Start with active hindlegs, good connection into the bridle, swinging back, and withers up - then bring the poll up. To bring the poll up first invites the horse to drop his withers and hollow his back.”
That’s it. You’ve reduced it to its most elegant terms. You’re the Einstein of Dressage. He said something like, “Reduce things to the simplest terms, but no simpler.” You’ve done it. I’ve saved it on my desktop and will write it on my dry erase board in the barn tonight and ride on with renewed confidence.
What you’ve said is where I’m going, and it feels great to read what I have always known and felt in my horse, put so precisely and plainly. Thank you.
To Jen W, you are correct in many things, but you’ll catch a lot more flies with sugar than vinegar. I read ODGs too, and lots of them had great humour and generosity to go with their knowledge. Good old Alois P. springs to mind. They did a lot of learning from each other, and only the weakest among them took potshots at each other instead of letting their training do the talking, if they disagreed. Furthermore, many of them were riding fundamentally different types of horses than we are, which affected their training methods. I hear the ODG’s ghostly voices wisely advising you to lighten up if you want to carry their work forward. 
Read some Sally O’Connor to learn about accomplished horsemanship with confident flexibility and KISS.
you must have xray vision to make that statement about the hindlegs and declare it to be incorrect.
I was testing you, you dolts!!!:rolleyes:
The two of you dancing should be very entertaining. Both with left feet and with counting skills that are second only to your spelling skills. Pull up your chairs everyone and place your bets on who takes a header first. I’m voting on Maria. She may be scrappy but Velvet is bigger!
I stubbed my toe again.
