The Derby Trail 2023 thread

[penelopeandthecats]

AS you have shared with me make sure sure that you know what one is talking about. The term environmental contamination," is badly misused here

You are alleging that someone’s “dirty hands,” or “human urine in stall bedding,” is an environmental
contaminant leading to a sample’s environmental contamination. Legally and the federal follows the EPA’s guidance on what constitutes an environmental contaminant and “environmental contamination” Environmental contaminants are collected from samples that might be air (aerosol), water, surface (such as building materials), and soil and not from a person with sloppy habits that leaves filth/residue on their work surface… Also, environmental contamination “ requires following special sampling protocols, handling, and analytical procedures” and does account for every contaminant found in the sample. If you believe the drug present in the sample is due to environmental contamination, if you don’t even know the source of the contamination. That is when we can use the “cross-contamination” of a sample. It is clear that individuals here have little experience in the analytical in identification of “environmental contamination of samples or products.

[Texarkana]

@penelopeandthecats

AS you have shared with me make sure sure that you know what one is talking about. The term environmental contamination," is badly misused here

You are alleging that someone’s “dirty hands,” or “human urine in stall bedding,” is an environmental
contaminant leading to a sample’s environmental contamination. Legally and the federal follows the EPA’s guidance on what constitutes an environmental contaminant and “environmental contamination” Environmental contaminants are collected from samples that might be air (aerosol), water, surface (such as building materials), and soil and not from a person with sloppy habits that leaves filth/residue on their work surface… Also, environmental contamination “ requires following special sampling protocols, handling, and analytical procedures” and does account for every contaminant found in the sample. If you believe the drug present in the sample is due to environmental contamination, if you don’t even know the source of the contamination. That is when we can use the “cross-contamination” of a sample. It is clear that individuals here have little experience in the analytical in identification of “environmental contamination of samples or products.

This is yet another instance where you are doubling down on something you are incorrect about.

Legally, in horse racing, “environmental contamination” is defined as when the horse is exposed to an illegal substance in its environment.

Environmental contamination can be caused by (1) moldy feed, or (2) a contaminant carried by a different horse, or (3) a contaminant carried by a human.

https://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1218&context=kjeanrl

[Bluey]

@Texarkana

This is yet another instance where you are doubling down on something you are incorrect about.

Legally, in horse racing, “environmental contamination” is defined as when the horse is exposed to an illegal substance in its environment.

Environmental contamination can be caused by (1) moldy feed, or (2) a contaminant carried by a different horse, or (3) a contaminant carried by a human.

https://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1218&context=kjeanrl

The Dunning-Kruger effect at play here, I think:

Dunning–Kruger effect

— Definition:

The Dunning–Kruger effect is defined as the tendency of people with low [ability] in a specific area to give overly positive assessments of this ability.This is often understood as a [cognitive bias]), i.e. as a systematic tendency to engage in erroneous forms of [thinking] and [judging]
In the case of the Dunning–Kruger effect, this applies mainly to people with low skill in a specific area trying to evaluate their competence within this area. The systematic error concerns their tendency to greatly overestimate their competence, i.e. to see themselves as more skilled than they are.

[findeight]

@penelopeandthecats

…. Without analytical;l data I would be VERY RELUCASNYANT to make that type of allegation. I definitely rely on the racing experts here.

Yet you argue with them. Inventing new words does not increase credibility, even when you shout them out.

With that, thanks y’all for an…interesting…discussion. Off to the Preakness, Belmont and Saratoga.

[Ghazzu]

You are both incoherent and inaccurate.
Carry on!

[smoofox]

@Ghazzu

You are both incoherent and inaccurate.
Carry on!

You left out “clueless” … and the only person penelope has to blame for those assessments - is penelopeandthecats.

[penelopeandthecats]

For over ten years, I have provided the federal government and the armed forces with environmental heavy metal chemical, and soil assessments for Hg… I’m sorry, but I understand chemistry, and I will continue to rely on the AOAC, EPA, and FDA guidelines for my guidance on what constitutes environmental contamination. I will continue using genuine science; sorry, but you would not have understood what I would have liked to explain regarding the real science.

You are free to base your science knowledge and decisions on non-peer-reviewed, non-validated Internet/Google sites and searches That already reveal much about your subject understanding on this topic and analytical science in general.

I have never met so many people that know everything; or is that know so so little about so many things?

[Texarkana]

No one is basing our knowledge on Google… except maybe you.

Everyone else is basing their knowledge on their boots on the ground experience with horse racing. Some of us even have experience with the connections of the very horse in question.

I’m sure your terminology is correct in certain circumstances. Our terminology is also correct. You don’t need to act like a petulant child because you can’t comprehend that the phrase can be used differently in different situations.

[Laurierace]

This is a horse racing forum. We are talking about horse racing rules and regulations and that’s it.

[Ghazzu]

You want peer-reviewed?

Forensic Science International
Volume 177, Issue 1 , 2 May 2008, Pages e21-e24

"In the United States and in other countries, horse racing laboratories are required by their racing jurisdictions to uphold the minimum threshold concentrations for accepted medications. In February 2005, the Illinois Racing Board issued new medication rules that established the threshold level of 150 ng/mL for BE in equine urine. This ruling is associated with the environmental contamination possibilities [4], [5]. In one study conducted in Illinois, microgram quantities of cocaine were found on tongue ties used for horses (R. Jensen, S. Kalita, unpublished data) so clearly an accidental transfer of traces of cocaine from humans to animals is possible. "

A Review of Possible Environmental Sources of Drug Positives
Cynthia Kollias-Baker, DVM, PhD
Proceedings of the Annual Convention of the AAEP 2002

 worth reading the entire review

J. vet. Pharmacol. Therap. 31, 466–471, doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2885.2008.00978.x.
Drug contamination of the equine racetrack environment: a preliminary
examination

" Such approaches and policies are further
complicated by the possibility that drug positives may arise from contamination of the equine environment on the backstretch of the race track. This
manuscript provides data demonstrating that the general environment of the
backstretch in which horses live is contaminated with therapeutic drugs and
drugs of human origin. "

Should I keep going?

[penelopeandthecats]

No, that is awesome!!! As an aside, in my comments, I made it clear that I had chosen the phrase “cross-contamination” because I lacked the data or evidence to refer to it as “environmental contamination.” As a result, I wasn’t entitled to do so.

I appreciate your professional response, and I will enjoy reading each of the articles you shared. here. Professionals debate opposing viewpoints on scientific topics in this way instead of mindlessly mocking and trying to intimidate the opposing view, which indicates their lack of credibility and validity. I will not only learn something and gain something from reading the information you so generously shared but others on this site will as well.

I will start by reading the J. Vet. Pharmacol. Therap paper. I can see how a drug’s direct delivery to horse results in the contamination of the soil, I am unsure how a human patient’s usage of the drug will affect the environmental contamination of the barn environment, short of them using an area surrounding the barn for defection purposes. I am really curious about that issue.

Thank you again. for your thoughtful, response.

[Laurierace]

I take a pill out of my pill container, swish it down with a swig of water then pick up the bridle so I can quickly tack my horse before the horse that just went out to the track gets back. I slide my thumb into the corner of his mouth then slide the bit into his mouth with 30
seconds to spare as my last horse just walked back into the shed row. Wipe my hand on pants and swap horses with the exercise rider. Untie the tongue tie and stick it in my back pocket.

I could go on but since this is an exercise in futility I think I will stop with one of millions of hypothetical scenarios.

[Texarkana]

Hey @Ghazzu how does it feel to have finally found your academic equal?

I’m sure you are flattered.

[penelopeandthecats]

I don’t know what you do as a trainer. I thought you were a respectable, reliable trainer who cared about their horses and did the right thing by them. You were in it for the horses and love of the sport, and NOT necessarily the money. Whether you agreed with me or not, you were among the VERY FEW ON THIS SITE I thought were worth listening to when it came to HORSES and the skills associated with their training.

As an aside, I would not joke about “popping a pill” before tacking my horse up on the backstretch and your associated questionable housekeeping habits. The Internet is a small world, and nothing is secure. So even though you are being cynical in making the referenced statements, in the wrong hands, the words you posted could give you more of a headache than you deserve. When taken out of context, you just painted a less-than-favorable picture of yourself as a trainer. I am assuming that is NOT your intent. You may wish to rethink them.

[cayuse]

Oh for gawd sakes!

[Laurierace]

For starters I am retired. Secondly the pill in question is Meloxicam, try to stay with the program. Thirdly it was a hypothetical. Fourth, I need to take my own advice and stop feeding the troll, no one is this dense.

[skydy]

@penelopeandthecats

As an aside, in my comments, I made it clear that I had chosen the phrase “cross-contamination” because I lacked the data or evidence to refer to it as “environmental contamination.” As a result, I wasn’t entitled to do so.

What?

[Ghazzu]

Joyful beyond belief.
The academic tenor of this bb is growing by leaps and bounds.

[skydy]

[Ghazzu]

@penelopeandthecats

You may wish to rethink them.

And you may wish to eschew placing your distal extremity in your oral cavity.