The Downhill horse: Are they becoming a thing in DressageWorld?

[mvp]

In addition to the suspicious question in the title, can we talk about:

1. how to see downhill conformation;

2. how to recognize that in movement; and

3. when, in a young horse’s development, you’ll overlook a butt-high baby because you know he’ll even out; and

3a) in that temporarily downhill youngster, what else you look for in his conformation that gives you faith that he’ll return to even or an uphill build/way of going?

I ask because I have seen a few horses of the WB persuasion (not all of them from riding-horse-purpose-bred-European registries) that look macroscopically downhill to me. That is to say that the withers are lower than the croup. No, they don’t look like halter-bred AQHA horses, but the geometry is there.

Then there is the more subtle kind of downhill in which the croup and withers are level, but you can see the rib cage get lower as it gets up to the withers (and it often gets narrower). I think I (unknowingly) bought this in my young Arabian/WB, so I have since wanted to become a more sophisticated student of that uphill/downhill conformation and movement.

I can add more later, but I’m eager to see what the rest of you more experienced dressagists can teach me.

[SillyHorse]

Uphill and downhill are actually determined by the line between the elbow and the stifle. A downhill horse can have a very high wither, etc.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

I do not have a keen eye for this myself, but it is my understanding that you really need to look at movement more than conformation as a horse with downhill conformation can have uphill movement. I guess having both would make it that much more likely that the horse will be able to do the upper level work that really requires an uphill balance.

As far as how to assess the likelihood that an uneven youngster who is stil growing will finish uphill, that is way beyond my pay grade!l

[mvp]

[QUOTE=SillyHorse;8782125]
Uphill and downhill are actually determined by the line between the elbow and the stifle. A downhill horse can have a very high wither, etc.[/QUOTE]

I remember reading that here and I have kept my eyes peeled for that conformation ever since. What’s really helpful is seeing a conformation shot and then watching the horse trot and canter.

No matter what the age, I look for evidence of a “leg mover” at the trot for a horse who essentially carries his carcass low in front. And a canter that doesn’t have a moment of suspension (even loose, even a horse playing and going at little fast)-- that’s a sign that he’s a bit downhill, at least at that moment of his muscling or development.

Does that sound right to you guys?

[skydy]

[QUOTE=mvp;8782255]
I remember reading that here and I have kept my eyes peeled for that conformation ever since. What’s really helpful is seeing a conformation shot and then watching the horse trot and canter.

No matter what the age, I look for evidence of a “leg mover” at the trot for a horse who essentially carries his carcass low in front. And a canter that doesn’t have a moment of suspension (even loose, even a horse playing and going at little fast)-- that’s a sign that he’s a bit downhill, at least at that moment of his muscling or development.

Does that sound right to you guys?[/QUOTE]

Well, the trotting “carcass” reference just doesn’t sound right at all!

[J-Lu]

Some good posts here. I’d add that downhill horses can go more uphill with good riding. I’d also add that many uphill “purpose-bred” horses develop hock issues because, as a vet once told me, they move like “German shepherds” and are unnaturally weight-bearing on the hind end.

There are many nice dressage horses that don’t have good suspension but are mechanically correct. Some horses can be taught this and can achieve it through balance and muscling. But then again, are you talking successful through fourth level, FEI, International GP?

I think most good breeders will tell you that you can’t tell what is going to happen with a youngster. Those flashy, huge, leg-driven gaits may never collect. Those boring young horse gaits might develop into the most correct tempis and pirouettes ever. The brain is more than half of the battle. This is really easy to see with International level GP riders who start their own horses or put the training on youngsters. All have promise but not so many pan out. Yet most would be considered to be “fine dressage horses” to the average person.

[skydy]

MVP; I agree. Of course conformation does influence movement, yet it is not the be all and end all.
I was taught to notice the elbow/stifle visual, however movement is more important.
Downhill conformation is a matter of degree. Obviously, when extreme or coupled with other faults it limits a sporthorse and affects soundness.
Different organizations (and thus some commercial breeders) weigh different standards according to their preferences and sometimes, unfortunately, “fads”.

Some people are concerned that the desire for an “uphill” build, in some instances is having a detrimental effect on the hindquarter strength of some horses.

It’s difficult to tell if a young horse will even out unless you know the bloodline very well. If you haven’t seen the horses behind an individual it really is a guessing game.

Other than knowing the bloodline (very important) and looking at build, I think your manner (movement) of assessing young potential to even out is as good as any.

[skydy]

[QUOTE=J-Lu;8782303]
Some good posts here. I’d add that downhill horses can go more uphill with good riding. I’d also add that many uphill “purpose-bred” horses develop hock issues because, as a vet once told me, they move like “German shepherds” and are unnaturally weight-bearing on the hind end.

There are many nice dressage horses that don’t have good suspension but are mechanically correct. Some horses can be taught this and can achieve it through balance and muscling. But then again, are you talking successful through fourth level, FEI, International GP?

I think most good breeders will tell you that you can’t tell what is going to happen with a youngster. Those flashy, huge, leg-driven gaits may never collect. Those boring young horse gaits might develop into the most correct tempis and pirouettes ever. The brain is more than half of the battle. This is really easy to see with International level GP riders who start their own horses or put the training on youngsters. All have promise but not so many pan out. Yet most would be considered to be “fine dressage horses” to the average person.[/QUOTE]

I think your German Shepard reference is spot on.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=skydy;8782329]
I think your German Shepard reference is spot on.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree - and it seems more and more of those horses are developing neuro issues (at least looking at the WBs I see in the area rings). I don’t think DOWNHILL is the goal though. I think level to slightly uphill horses are most breeders’ goals, and more importantly, a horse that moves in an elevated way. Some horses move with their chest and shoulders low (MVPs carcass reference), and others naturally elevate - from a rider standpoint, those are the horses whose withers lift naturally.

That is one reason a low-set neck can be an issue - the neck is part of the overall balance, and when it is already set low into the chest (even if it comes up, such as you see in some of the Iberian horses), it does make it harder to elevate the front end.

OP - with a young horse, a few things to watch… First of all, how do they move? Do they come under behind, do they elevate their chest and shoulders when they move? Even when a foal is in a gawky growth stage, some have a natural lift to them. Do they have a loose elbow? Do they have space between stifle and body? These are both conformation traits that allow bigger movement - although the stifle/body changes depending on their growth stage.

Although it is hard to tell where they will end up, the lower limbs (knee down) are done growing very early in life - so if they have a short forelimb and a very high hock, odds are, they will not be an uphill horse. And it will be harder for them to engage.

The neck set is easy to see early on - although realize foals necks can lengthen and develop top line - so mostly you are just looking at where it attaches to the body.

Once you are out of foal-hood - if you are looking at yearlings, 2 year olds, and even 3 year olds, it can get even wonkier - they go through some fugly growth spurts. But you can start to look at the strength of their back and loin - a horse with a good back and loin has a better chance at success - and don’t forget to look at their lower limbs and neck set.

Young horses are hard to assess, for sure! And personally, I don’t want a horse that is super uphill - I want a horse that moves in an uphill way - that easily elevates its chest and shoulders. And more importantly, I want a horse who WANTS to work with me. And that is hard to assess until you are riding them AND putting pressure on them to do something hard. I’ve seen plenty of fancy 4 year olds who flunked out of dressage because they don’t have the brain for it - and they were with GOOD trainers. So there is always that too…

[exvet]

1. how to see downhill conformation;

2. how to recognize that in movement; and

3. when, in a young horse’s development, you’ll overlook a butt-high baby because you know he’ll even out; and

3a) in that temporarily downhill youngster, what else you look for in his conformation that gives you faith that he’ll return to even or an uphill build/way of going?

Well having had a few of these, lol, I feel I ‘can’ respond. Downhill conformation is when the elbow is lower than the stifle. While I to pay very close attention to conformation I also watch the movement before making any definitive decision on a horse. If I see that the downhill conformed horse still steps well underneath and is able to lift and get their forehand up and out of the way, I’m less concerned. If that same horse exhibits true shoulder freedom and is well conformed with very good/solid hocks then I consider the horse likely able to ‘do dressage’.

Now as for the downhill youngster lol, well, some know that I used the typical recommendations to assess the one I acquired (at the age of 2) many years ago - bloodlines, phenotype of dam/stallion, siblings, etc - and thought I was ‘safe’. Alas that guy is 18 and still downhill but he’s earned more than one person their silver medal.

As for the German Shepherd analogy, while I will agree, the difficulty in weight-bearing is easily delineated by the slope of the pelvis AND the fact that they move with their hocks trailing when rider is not on board.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=J-Lu;8782303]
Some good posts here. I’d add that downhill horses can go more uphill with good riding. I’d also add that many uphill “purpose-bred” horses develop hock issues because, as a vet once told me, they move like “German shepherds” and are unnaturally weight-bearing on the hind end.

There are many nice dressage horses that don’t have good suspension but are mechanically correct. Some horses can be taught this and can achieve it through balance and muscling. But then again, are you talking successful through fourth level, FEI, International GP?

I think most good breeders will tell you that you can’t tell what is going to happen with a youngster. Those flashy, huge, leg-driven gaits may never collect. Those boring young horse gaits might develop into the most correct tempis and pirouettes ever. The brain is more than half of the battle. This is really easy to see with International level GP riders who start their own horses or put the training on youngsters. All have promise but not so many pan out. Yet most would be considered to be “fine dressage horses” to the average person.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the post and the interesting idea about those especially uphill purpose-bred horses moving like German Shepherds. Just musing about the biomechanics- and selective breeding of both, I’d think something different was going on.

First, the strange wiggliness of German Shepherds’ hind end comes mainly from problems with the hips, right? I do think the have been bred to have a lot of curve to the hind leg, but I thought their issues came from something like weak collateral ligaments going across joints which, of course, are taxed a lot if the leg has been shaped to be curvy. But really, I know squat about how those dogs’ snake-like hind ends got bred, or what’s behind their apparent instability.

The horse, on the other hand, has been selected (primarily by nature) for an exceptionally strong hind end. Between the incredible muscle at the top of the limb and the robustness of all those ligaments from the hock down that help create the “spring” of the equine limb, I’d think the hind limb was up for the job of being over loaded a bit. I’m sure you can’t do too much for too long. After all, we do see some older, hardworking horses with dropped fetlocks behind. The horses I have met who had this condition have been heavy, old-fashioned WBs who worked hard; others I think have had a genetic predisposition. And horses do tear their suspensories off up near the hock. I couldn’t tell you what kind of work or footing creates that injury as I do my very best to steer clear of it!

Otherwise, I think the rest is true, too: A good mind counts for a lot and three good gaits is a nice place to start. I know that good riders can improve a trot-- really change it in a horse. But is the same true of a horse who has a “low” canter, one in which the front legs are pretty quick to hit the ground?

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=mvp;8782565]
Thanks for the post and the interesting idea about those especially uphill purpose-bred horses moving like German Shepherds. Just musing about the biomechanics- and selective breeding of both, I’d think something different was going on.

First, the strange wiggliness of German Shepherds’ hind end comes mainly from problems with the hips, right? I do think the have been bred to have a lot of curve to the hind leg, but I thought their issues came from something like weak collateral ligaments going across joints which, of course, are taxed a lot if the leg has been shaped to be curvy. But really, I know squat about how those dogs’ snake-like hind ends got bred, or what’s behind their apparent instability.

The horse, on the other hand, has been selected (primarily by nature) for an exceptionally strong hind end. Between the incredible muscle at the top of the limb and the robustness of all those ligaments from the hock down that help create the “spring” of the equine limb, I’d think the hind limb was up for the job of being over loaded a bit. I’m sure you can’t do too much for too long. After all, we do see some older, hardworking horses with dropped fetlocks behind. The horses I have met who had this condition have been heavy, old-fashioned WBs who worked hard; others I think have had a genetic predisposition. And horses do tear their suspensories off up near the hock. I couldn’t tell you what kind of work or footing creates that injury as I do my very best to steer clear of it!

Otherwise, I think the rest is true, too: A good mind counts for a lot and three good gaits is a nice place to start. I know that good riders can improve a trot-- really change it in a horse. But is the same true of a horse who has a “low” canter, one in which the front legs are pretty quick to hit the ground?[/QUOTE]

I don’t know a lot about conformation except that when I’ve bought horses who have had something I felt made the training more difficult, I’ve been sure to watch out for that in the next horse I’ve bought. I think my pony is the nicest one I’ve had. exvet would know if she’s gone through a gangly period between foaling and 2, but since I’ve had her I can’t say she’s gone through an ugly gangly stage. She has had a couple periods of slightly up-slightly out, but I’ve thought her beautiful throughout.

I have seen (and ridden one, but he wasn’t mine) horses that move like GS. Some people ooh and ahh over them because it looks like they are getting under themselves and moving. But something looks really wonky to me there and no way no how would I want a horse like that. The one I rode could really move out for sure. But he could not stay sound.

To address your last paragraph and improving the trot. I’ve experienced this most with my mustang, as he isn’t well conformed and so I’ve had to work very hard to improve him to the best he could be. And it is hard work because he mentally can be a difficult horse. I’ve found that improving the trot improves the canter. When I was first working with him and he was barely broke, he couldn’t canter very well - he had a pretty lateral canter, didn’t have good balance, and it was a hot mess. So I gave up on cantering and we worked at the walk and trot only (and lots of trail riding). I worked at the time with a trainer who was very into horse biomechanics and improving gaits; it was a lot of hard work. Even by way of not cantering for a while, developing the horse at the trot helped his canter, so that when I went back to it he had better balance, rhythm, and uniformity. Imagine my surprise when he go a couple 8s on canter circles in a test - the only 8s he got!

A lot of people say you can’t improve the canter, but I don’t find that to be true. I’d say it is more difficult to improve than the trot, and more difficult to improve within the gait itself, but work on strengthening the trot and working correctly in that gait and the canter will be improved.

That’s been my experience, anyway, with two of my horses, one of whom had a nice (TB) canter to begin with.