The Dressage - Brannaman nexus: Can we talk about particulars?

[mvp]

In the last month, I’ve had the great fortune to get a lesson from a good, classical dressagist and also from a local guy who has been doing Brannaman-style stuff (with Brannaman himself) for a few years.

I can do both with the horses I’m riding. Now, I have questions about particular movements the Brannaman folks do and how they fit in to making a broke, symmetrical, supple, light and uphill horse.

The dressagist and the Brannaman guy both demur when asked question about the other camp. Are any of you willing to answer my questions?

As always, please limit your dissing to non-dumb-a$$ stereotypes of the other side if you have to go there at all.

Thanks.

[aktill]

Bring it on. I respect Buck immensely, and understand what he’s doing for the most part, but declined to even audit this time around when he comes to town.

I get more from the dressage lessons I take weekly then I did from the clinic I took last time he came around. My dressage instructor can’t help with the nuances of building a spade bit horse, so I’ll go to some western folks for that, but it’ll be Josh Nichol and Bruce Sandifer (and Martin Black for the cattle work side).

There are differences, so I’m happy to participate in the discussion thereof. The big ones I’ve observed between what Buck teaches and what others do off the top of my head:

1. going to what I think it called Position 3 or sitting heavy to back - closes the door to backing, but the horse is expected to back through that closed door EDIT: should have been written as position 2
2. Using the rein to initiate backing ever
3. two handing bridle reins
4. spending way more time in the snaffle then in the hackamore (builds a different posture in the horse)
5. using an opening rein

Then between Buck and dressage:

1. what legs do in turns - I prefer the non-dressage way here

[Pocket_Pony]

I wouldn’t know that/if I could answer your questions, but I’m curious as to what they are!

I integrate the work I did in the BB clinic with the dressage background that I’ve got and have had a lot of progress with Mac in the past six months. Right now I’m only riding in my dressage saddle because I sold my old western trail saddle and have a new western saddle on order. But I do my ground work to warm up, I do all sorts of fun and interesting lateral stuff at the walk (the half turn exercise - jeez, what is that even called?, TOF, TOH, backing, side-passing, etc.) and most importantly to try to work on feel.

Some places I get stuck. Mentally, it is easier for me to work on a loose rein and ask for a “soft feel” in my western bridle (more of a give and release), whereas in my english bridle I tend toward more steady contact. Just habit, I guess, but the contact I aim for is light and self-carrying on Mac’s part. The BB stuff has really helped me with separating my leg aids, which, when I do it right, produces a better and smoother answer from Mac.

That’s probably more than you were interested in hearing, but I also go back and forth so I’m interested to know what your questions are.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=aktill;7236880]
Bring it on. I respect Buck immensely, and understand what he’s doing for the most part, but declined to even audit this time around when he comes to town.

I get more from the dressage lessons I take weekly then I did from the clinic I took last time he came around. My dressage instructor can’t help with the nuances of building a spade bit horse, so I’ll go to some western folks for that, but it’ll be Josh Nichol and Bruce Sandifer (and Martin Black for the cattle work side).

There are differences, so I’m happy to participate in the discussion thereof. The big ones I’ve observed between what Buck teaches and what others do off the top of my head:

1. going to what I think it called Position 3 or sitting heavy to back - closes the door to backing, but the horse is expected to back through that closed door
2. Using the rein to initiate backing ever
3. two handing bridle reins
4. spending way more time in the snaffle then in the hackamore (builds a different posture in the horse)
5. using an opening rein

Then between Buck and dressage:

1. what legs do in turns - I prefer the non-dressage way here[/QUOTE]

Adam, I’ve seen what you mean about the backing and seat position and I agree. There are some things I take and some things I leave and I just use what works for me.

With regard to using rein to back - aside from the first step where I’m closing my hands to say “no, go the other way” - how do you teach backing without rein aids?

And shouldn’t you use an opening rein with a snaffle? Or are you referring to an opening rein with the hackamore? Could you expand on that, please?

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7236885]

Some places I get stuck. Mentally, it is easier for me to work on a loose rein and ask for a “soft feel” in my western bridle (more of a give and release), whereas in my english bridle I tend toward more steady contact. Just habit, I guess, but the contact I aim for is light and self-carrying on Mac’s part. [/QUOTE]

What sort of reins do you use with the bridles? I find traditional english leather reins insubstantial and lifeless compared to even yacht braid, and moreso still compared to hair reins. Even harness leather split reins are nicer to work with (though not my favorite).

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7236890]

With regard to using rein to back - aside from the first step where I’m closing my hands to say “no, go the other way” - how do you teach backing without rein aids?[/QUOTE]

If your first step is to close the rein you have the same problem I did To be clear too, I don’t mean without rein aids, but I mean without just taking a square feel of brace and releasing with the horse gives backwards.

I’d never seen a horse back with energy, reining competitions etc included, until I saw Martin Black back a horse this fall. His focus is to create the impulsion in the hind leg that requires the front end to catch up or get left behind, rather than pulling the front end back over the hind end such as is usually detailed by Buck by “close the rein and wait for him to give”.

Martin develops a proper backup from freeing up the hind end pivoting by the front end. He starts by making sure not to get them to leak forward or step sideways when pivoting, and when they’re about crossed up with the front legs, getting the hind to take a solid step back by releasing the rein.

They shouldn’t be sitting down behind, since that’s the front end trying to climb up and over the hind, but it’s what you often see. In a nutshell, that’s how you drag big 11s through the dirt, but end up hitting a wall when the hind end can’t clear out. If the front foot picks up dirt, it isn’t stepping.

To be clear, I have no doubt that’s what Buck may be releasing for without needing the setup, but it isn’t what I see him saying or see in the efforts of people trying to learn from his setup of the back.

@Pocket Pony;7236890

And shouldn’t you use an opening rein with a snaffle? Or are you referring to an opening rein with the hackamore? Could you expand on that, please?

I did in another thread, but in a nutshell, I don’t believe in anything more then a momentary opening rein effect since it encourages the horse to bring it’s nose out from under its spine. Also, it’s an incredibly hard habit to get out of doing, and doesn’t have any applicability to riding in a full bridle. You can even double a horse without taking an opening rein, so I just don’t see the point. It’s a worse sin in a hackamore since it counterflexes the poll to use only a single rein, but it’s not a good plan in a snaffle either IMHO.

[spotnnotfarm]

[QUOTE=aktill;7237469]
If your first step is to close the rein you have the same problem I did To be clear too, I don’t mean without rein aids, but I mean without just taking a square feel of brace and releasing with the horse gives backwards.

I’d never seen a horse back with energy, reining competitions etc included, until I saw Martin Black back a horse this fall. His focus is to create the impulsion in the hind leg that requires the front end to catch up or get left behind, rather than pulling the front end back over the hind end such as is usually detailed by Buck by “close the rein and wait for him to give”.

Martin develops a proper backup from freeing up the hind end pivoting by the front end. He starts by making sure not to get them to leak forward or step sideways when pivoting, and when they’re about crossed up with the front legs, getting the hind to take a solid step back by releasing the rein.

They shouldn’t be sitting down behind, since that’s the front end trying to climb up and over the hind, but it’s what you often see. In a nutshell, that’s how you drag big 11s through the dirt, but end up hitting a wall when the hind end can’t clear out. If the front foot picks up dirt, it isn’t stepping. [QUOTE=aktill;723746]

Do you know of any video links that show Martin doing this? I think this what is happening in my back ups.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=aktill;7237445]
What sort of reins do you use with the bridles? I find traditional english leather reins insubstantial and lifeless compared to even yacht braid, and moreso still compared to hair reins. Even harness leather split reins are nicer to work with (though not my favorite).[/QUOTE]

My dressage bridle reins are leather lined with rubber - yes, they are pretty dull. My western bridle reins are parachute-cord mecate from Frecker’s and I think they have a nice feel to them.

[aktill]

Sorry, never seen anything like it. A lady was politely asking why he was fussing around so much with everyone in the backup, when a number of us had horses that would back softly and lightly off very little cue. My horse was in this group (different class to go on same day), so I was thinking the same thing.

So, he asked her to line her horse up beside his, and said they were going to have a little race. In the time that her horse took a half dozen steps, his was clear across the arena. I’ve never seen a horse power backwards like a steamroller with a Ferrari engine, but I sure got a demo.

Sort of cleared up our questions! Again, never seen anything like it anywhere. I’ve seen light and soft, but never POWERFUL, fast light and soft.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7237862]
My dressage bridle reins are leather lined with rubber - yes, they are pretty dull. .[/QUOTE]

Those sorts of reins seem to cry out for contact just to get feel in them.

[Pocket_Pony]

I, too, would be interested in seeing how Martin teaches that. I have one of his videos here now that I need to watch - if he demonstrates it, I’ll see if I can understand it.

I saw one of the videos you posted, Adam, of you riding Tindur in your dressage saddle and hackamore - do you often school like that? I couldn’t quite tell what you did with your get-down rope - did you just loop it in your belt or tie it to the saddle?

I’ve been putting off getting a hackamore until my new western saddle comes in, but maybe I should just go for it now? I did find a couple of options of people to teach me…

[aktill]

Blessedly I’m rid of that saddle. It was a great rig…for someone who needs a seat an inch smaller than I do. It was a good colt saddle for him (only thing I could find to fit him at the time), but after his back finished developing I was very happy to get a custom rope saddle done.

That said, you don’t need a western saddle (or horn) to use the hack. Just run the get down to your off-side belt. My endurance saddle doesn’t have a horn and I still use my hackamores riding it.

[Fillabeana]

1. going to what I think it called Position 3 or sitting heavy to back - closes the door to backing, but the horse is expected to back through that closed door

For the record, Buck explains in his 7-dvd set as well as at LEAST once in every clinic I’ve been to, that you do NOT ask for a backup in his ‘position 3’ or heavy in the seat.
You ask for the backup out of position 2, balanced and in the middle.

usually detailed by Buck by “close the rein and wait for him to give”.

If you just wait for the horse to give ‘backwards’, but don’t wait for, or reward the horse lifting his front and engaging his rear, your horse probably won’t learn to back up very well. Yes, he’ll go backwards off a light ask/feel, but he won’t learn to lift his ribcage, coil his loin and lift the base of his neck when he backs up. You start this on the ground, so the horse can lift his withers and back without a brace, before he has the weight of a rider on his back.

Basically, you have to ask the horse to back with life, with energy, not as an escape of pressure. The horse has to really release any braciness to back well. If the horse doesn’t understand how to bring his life up without feeling panicky or defensive, you won’t get it. So usually, you’d start with the ‘bring life up smoothly, bring life down smoothly’ stuff going forward. Your horse should be able to stand quiet, gallop off a few strides, and stop balanced and quiet, without fidgeting or upset.

This is dealt with in the beginning with flag work; teaching the horse when it is your INTENTION to add life using the flag, and when you are just flapping the thing. Until the horse has learned this separation clearly, you will likely have problems bringing the life up without fuzzing up the horse.

[DLee]

I have been in contact with Betty Staley (from Buck the film), who has also co-written a book with Ellen Eckstein, Bringing it Together. It has been helpful, as I am also trying to meld these two philosophies.

I finally, FINALLY, got the leg differences in the legs during turns, still have to think way too hard about it, but am doing better. The contact thing is a bit of a bigger issue, but as someone said to me (I think it was Betty), this is YOUR horse, you decide how to ride her, how much you want. That was very freeing for me. She is my horse. She may not be as light as what Buck would want, but she certainly isn’t leaning, heavy and forced. I am still ‘letting’ her find the place where I want her instead of making her be there (she’s five now, I started her myself and we’ve only started working on flexion and collection this summer).

It’s an interesting journey that I am really loving, everything from the dressage end to jumping training (eventing is my love), applying this thought process to everything.

[Fillabeana]

DLee, I was just thinking of adding Betty Staley as a bridge between ‘dressage’ and ‘vaquero’.
Betty rode a whole bunch with Ray Hunt, so she isn’t ‘just’ a Buck person, and she has ridden at the upper levels, so she does know dressage from the basic, fundamental level as it applies to the development of an upper level horse.

[DLee]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7238635]
DLee, I was just thinking of adding Betty Staley as a bridge between ‘dressage’ and ‘vaquero’.
Betty rode a whole bunch with Ray Hunt, so she isn’t ‘just’ a Buck person, and she has ridden at the upper levels, so she does know dressage from the basic, fundamental level as it applies to the development of an upper level horse.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. She has been very beneficial to me with her knowledge of both sides. And incredibly generous and willing to share.

[froglander]

Oh what a wonderful thread to come across! I’ve watched the movie “Buck” a number of times, my husband got me the “7 Clinics” for Christmas last year, and I have been taking dressage lessons in my western saddle.

I agree with whoever in this thread that said their english reins have no life in them. I rode a couple times last week with my western headstall with a snaffle bit with slobber snaps and rope reins and then rode in my dressage bridle (sans noseband) last night and the western setup I just felt like I had a better feel with the reins. Going to use it again tonight and see if I have a better ride.

I am going to have to re-read what was said about backing up here because I still don’t quite get it Once my horse /starts/ to back, he’ll back softly, I sit in a sort of “position 2” type seat, not sitting back “on my pockets” so to speak because I feel it gives his back somewhere to go that way. But getting that first step or two of backing can be so resistant sometimes

Leg aids! For awhile I was trying to do as I’d understood from the Buck dvds, of if I wanted to go to the right my left leg would be a bit forward and right leg a bit back, but then with the dressage lessons I was confusing myself too much and have essentially gone back to “turn around the inside leg”, but I kind of find myself using my outside leg more sometimes, depending on the situation. Other times putting my inside leg on he turns right around it. I’m so glad my horse works with me despite my confusion at times

I wrote to Betty Staley once and she was kind enough to write back. Saying that she too uses her legs more how Buck describes.

But then I get confused with what if I’m going in a circle? What should my legs be doing then? Last lesson we really worked on my legs being in “neutral” unless I was specifically asking for something, but then when I did ask, my horse was to respond noticeably and I /think/ we are doing better with that.

I hope people continue adding to this thread, combining the ideas of people like Buck and dressage is something I struggle with all the time

[Fillabeana]

I think ‘dressage’ legs don’t account for the fact that a horse, going balanced around a circle, steps OUTWARD with his hind end in order to stay bent and balanced on the circle.
The ‘dressage legs’ have you keep your outside leg back so the horse travels around the bend ‘as though on railroad tracks’, using your outside leg to keep the horse’s haunches in.
But a horse does not work that way, to stay balanced and bent properly on a circle, the horse does NOT travel on parallel tracks, but steps under himself laterally with the inside hind leg, his outside hind leg steps out also- a bit like a big orange Costco cart turning down the baking aisle.
If you understand that a horse must step laterally behind on a bend, it is easier to put your inside leg back to ask for that bend.

I hope people continue adding to this thread, combining the ideas of people like Buck and dressage is something I struggle with all the time

Buck says himself that there’s nothing to reconcile between ‘his way of riding’ and dressage. (Except maybe that Buck will NOT ride in spandex.)

I am going to have to re-read what was said about backing up here because I still don’t quite get it Once my horse /starts/ to back, he’ll back softly, I sit in a sort of “position 2” type seat, not sitting back “on my pockets” so to speak because I feel it gives his back somewhere to go that way.

Again, Buck will tell you to ask for the backup from position 2, that you do NOT back the horse up while sitting on your pockets (position 3). Back up from neutral, position 2.
Lots and lots of people hear him say this, and then ask, “So when I back up, it’s position 3, right?” To which he replies, no, not leaning back, not on your pockets, not position 3- sit up in position 2 to ask for the backup.

[froglander]

Would I horribly confuse my horse if I try to change?

If you are riding in a circle, do you keep aids “on” all the time, or do they just come into effect if he steps outside that “centered rectangle” that I think Buck described?

[froglander]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7238764]
Buck says himself that there’s nothing to reconcile between ‘his way of riding’ and dressage. (Except maybe that Buck will NOT ride in spandex.)[/QUOTE]

I think it’s that darn ole issue of contact vs a loose rein where I feel I struggle to reconcile the two.

I love this picture of Betty Staley riding one of her horses (from her blog post “Hunting for the Hindquarters”
http://bettystaley.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Solo-best-balance-that-day-700x560.jpg