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The elusive American forward seat..

Hunter/Jumper
#1

I have been a Rider On My Own for about four years now. Before that, I had a great coach, great horse flesh, and rode pretty well. Then I got older, a new horse that had a lot of under saddle problems, and moved to TX.

Needless to say, my soft, forward seat has gone to crap. For years, I tried to adapt the deeper seat, thinking it would help with breaks. Then I decided to lighten my seat because nothing was working.

Now, I am working with a wonderful trainer that has done a TON for me. However, I am still struggling a bit with the forward seat. For some reason, I just can’t get through my head about the muscles and bones my trainer wants me to sit and not sit on.

I watch myself on video, and I notice that I seem off cadence and “wiggle” my butt, while having my butt tucked under me and riding on my pockets. Instead of a solid forward seat, like most of the riders I watch, I feel sloppy and wiggly and insecure.

My horse still needs a lot of work. He is working on his balance at the canter, and we are working on getting him to relax (see past threads to know more about him). He is doing great, but I feel like my seat is a huge factor to how he performs. He is very unbalanced and confident at the canter, even when being lunged. He is improving and we are getting better.

So, does anyone have any tips about drilling where my body needs to be through my head? Less butt tucked like a puppy that got spanked, and more like the wonderful, beautiful riders I see in the ring?

I am going to post two short clips from my last lesson, for reference. I would turn your volume downish. SO was standing next to trainer, and she has to yell at me so I can hear. :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOmYVg3fNr8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlFdo77rvD4

There are other videos on there for your cringing pleasure, however I would like to keep our commentary to these two videos, please. The ones before these two are me without a trainer, doing ammy things, being a bad ammy rider. :eek:

#2

It looks like you’re doing something similar to my natural seat, where your hips very much follow the horse. But as you know, it’s a slippery slope into a driving seat and can compromise your brakes. I like to tell myself to stick out my butt. My trainer yelled at me for a good year to stay tight in my core, which led to me tightening the wrong core muscles and being confused, until I realized just sticking out my butt fixes the problem.

It looks like you might also be a little stiff through the elbow, but I bet once your core is tight (via sticking your butt out :wink: ) you won’t feel like you need to brace through your arms to keep your balance or halt.

#3

I have a similar position issue although I tend to sit the canter on my horse. There are two things I have to think about: 1) Look up and stretch up tall and 2) roll my hips forward so that I’m sitting on my pubic bone and not with my butt tucked under.
I tend to have this position issue at all three gates so when I first get on and am just walking around I start thinking about my position. It makes it a lot easier to correct when you think about it from the get-go. My guess is that even though you recognize it as a problem when you start to canter, you probably tuck your butt under even when you are walking and trotting.
Rolling your hips forward (or as SweetMutt says, sticking your butt out) will help stabilize your core and you won’t have that “wiggle”.

#4

I find the videos a touch difficult to really see any detail on your lower body position just because your horse is dark, the whole saddle area is dark, your boots are dark, and your breeches are dark. So - that said - I can’t be sure that what I think I’m seeing - is actually whats happening - because I only saw it now and then when the video had enough contrast on those areas.

But - what I think I was seeing was that you were a little feet on the dash at times - your hip and ankle not being in alignment under each other - your foot getting a bit far ahead perhaps?

I agree with the idea of either stick your but out, or hinge at the hips and push your tush to the back of the saddle - all depends on what resonates with you (that whole toes up vs heels down thing) - except that from what I think I’m seeing you need that leg under you so pushing your butt back without adjusting the leg won’t help the overall situation.

I’m just throwing it out there because of my own personal experience - but it could be an issue with your build and the balance of that particular saddle and how it sits on that particular horse (if its the same saddle you’ve had forever kind of thing). I found a HUGE difference in my ability to maintain that nice forward light half seat once I had a saddle that suited both me and my horse (previous saddle suited the horse better than it suited me, forcing me to work against the saddle to maintain proper position and resulting in a picture very similar to what I’m seeing in your videos).

#5

(Psssssst…it’s “elusive.” :wink: I don’t usually correct folks on public boards, but since it’s in your title, I thought you might like to fix it.)

#6

OP, I think you have a few things going on.

  1. You are stiff in your hips, and in your knees, in that order of decreasing severity.

  2. Like lots of American hunt seat riders, you stabilize your hips this way and have lots of strength there. It’s the physically easier alternative to getting core strength for some of us. I include myself in that group.

2a. You absorb shock in your lower back, all the way up to about where your bra band is. Then you round your shoulders above and get a little more shock absorption. Again, this is easier than relaxing your hips and using your core to do the same job.

  1. You have some twist in your upper body, I think you drop and round your right shoulder. I see that in the first video as you are coming toward the camera near the end.

  2. Your horse’s current state of unbalance plus your stiff hips together produce the booty wiggle you are talking about. See, he moves his body diagonally from outside hind, to the lateral pair to inside fore. You, being like a fixed clothes pin on him from your belt to knee can only move diagonally right with his body-- and that shows up in your butt wiggle.

4a. That “staying soft” from the belt to your bra is/was supposed to be how the forward seat rider evened things out and looked smooth at the top. But let’s be clear, the other piece of this equation is a horse who is straight and uphill… a little farther along than yours. But if you watch enough video taken from above, as in the stands at a big horse show, you can see all sorts of good American seat riders doing those small circles with their seat that you do. You can see this a lot with very forward Grand Prix horses who, I imagine, are pretty stiff in their back.

So the fix is to find your hips and discover how to relax them. That’s a tall order in terms of generating body awareness. One good place to start for you would be to alternate a two point and sitting at the canter. Do three strides of each and concentrate on making the two point feel as much like sitting-- right under your ass-- as you can.

To me, that means that you learn to find that broad, hand-sized spot on your inner thighs that stays on the horse all the time. It doesn’t change a lot whether you sit or stand in a two-point. The rest of your leg doesn’t grip; you’re just standing there with your heels down, in balance. I’m sure your hips follow when you sit, so this can be a way to help identify the part of your body that you need to learn to stabilize or allow to follow.

Sooner or later, the twist in your upper body will get in the way, even with this problem, because it usually means that you are riding “scissors style”-- with one foot more forward than the other. That, too, can be fixed. It is devastating for anyone trying to produce a straight horse. And you’ll need that so that you can find distances from either lead.

The scissors thing is also a “cheat” for someone like you-- a good, competent rider who somehow didn’t get core strength and “got the job done” such that no one really nit-picked her equitation. And FWIW, it is easy to cheat on the core strength and straightness issues in the American Forward Seat.

This is a start. I hope it helps.

#7

I may be totally off base, so take this with a grain of salt.

Wondering if you’re just a tad tight in your knees. Your leg position is very secure. If you think about turning your knees out (away from the saddle), you may find that you’re able to absorb some of the motion in your knee joints and let your crotch sink lightly into the saddle.

(Note that you’re not actually turning your knees out - just loosening the grip on the saddle to allow the knee-joint to absorb some of the motion.)

#8

MVP you explained that very well!

#9

[QUOTE=Dewey;8332281]
(Psssssst…it’s “elusive.” :wink: I don’t usually correct folks on public boards, but since it’s in your title, I thought you might like to fix it.)[/QUOTE]

Thank you.

#10

Core strength. You are collapsing through your lower back and rolling onto your tailbone rather than squatting down onto your sit bones.

Start at the sitting trot. Take a deep breath in and hold it. Breathe. Repeat. You should feel your chest lifting and your abs become more solid/secure near the diaphram area. Then do some GM exercises of keeping with the sitting trot but hold the pommel with your inside hand and both reins in the outside hand. Use the support of the pommel to rotate your pelvis forward some so you get that concavity in your lower back and you are off your tailbone. It may help to drop your stirrups. Then transition to some 2-point trot (with stirrups) and work on engaging these parts you just tuned yourself into and then sinking back into the saddle without collapsing your core and rolling onto the tailbone. Then move onto the canter.

These exercises will help you create some muscle memory and become more aware of the core muscles that you are currently not engaging properly. By focusing the tension up towards the diaphragm, you shouldn’t have the rebound effect of stiffening your hips too much.

#11

I could be way off base with this, but to me, it looks as though you’re somewhat “C” shaped in the saddle, from your head right down to your feet. To me, it appears as though you’re leaning forward with your feet forward in an effort to be soft. This pulls your hands down, rounds your shoulders, tucks your bum, and makes it difficult to get your leg back under yourself.

In my eye, if you sit up, pull your shoulders back, and raise your hands, it would make it much harder for you to tuck your bum and sit on your seat pockets. This doesn’t mean you need to sit down hard and drive the horse, but rather just straighten everything out a bit. I’ve been hearing a lot in lessons that a low hand doesn’t mean soft, and that I need to raise my hands with an elastic elbow in order to give my horse a soft ride, so I may now be looking for this everywhere. :wink: My favourite default position (possibly because I spent a long time riding a horse technically too small for me that I curled up on to minimize my size) is to roll my shoulders, lean forward and drop my hand. Shockingly, that fetal position just tips my nice horse on her forehand and makes her heavy, rather than providing her the lovely soft ride I imagine! :wink:

I think you can sit straight and tall, yet still be in a soft, forward, following seat. It’s that happy medium between a driving seat and the ineffective fetal position.

#12

I think you are right, as well. I notice that I get a little too concentrated about “heels down”, that I wind up pushing my leg almost a little forward which causes me to loose balance. I was watching a trot video earlier towards the end of this lesson, and my legs were very “floppy” trying to keep the heel down, rather than focusing on keeping my leg under me.

Sorry for the video quality. Of course, the one time SO can actually go to a lesson with me and record, I’m wearing all the wrong stuff to get a good critique. I didn’t even plan on sharing them (out of fear), but I figured I couldn’t get good feedback without sharing.

As for the saddle, I am saving up for a new one. I have ridden in a few different ones on him, and this is the only one that doesn’t feel like it puts me in a chair. However, the other ones I rode on him were the same brand (Harry Dabbs). We’re saving to try and find something new, as this saddle has seen much better days.

[QUOTE=snaffle635;8332320]I may be totally off base, so take this with a grain of salt.

Wondering if you’re just a tad tight in your knees. Your leg position is very secure. If you think about turning your knees out (away from the saddle), you may find that you’re able to absorb some of the motion in your knee joints and let your crotch sink lightly into the saddle.

(Note that you’re not actually turning your knees out - just loosening the grip on the saddle to allow the knee-joint to absorb some of the motion.)[/QUOTE]

Honestly, I’ve been wondering if I have been gripping with me knees!

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8332343]Core strength. You are collapsing through your lower back and rolling onto your tailbone rather than squatting down onto your sit bones.

Start at the sitting trot. Take a deep breath in and hold it. Breathe. Repeat. You should feel your chest lifting and your abs become more solid/secure near the diaphram area. Then do some GM exercises of keeping with the sitting trot but hold the pommel with your inside hand and both reins in the outside hand. Use the support of the pommel to rotate your pelvis forward some so you get that concavity in your lower back and you are off your tailbone. It may help to drop your stirrups. Then transition to some 2-point trot (with stirrups) and work on engaging these parts you just tuned yourself into and then sinking back into the saddle without collapsing your core and rolling onto the tailbone. Then move onto the canter.

These exercises will help you create some muscle memory and become more aware of the core muscles that you are currently not engaging properly. By focusing the tension up towards the diaphragm, you shouldn’t have the rebound effect of stiffening your hips too much.[/QUOTE]

Thank you! I will try some of these. I was working really hard outside of horses on my core, but I started back at school during the night workouts and work picked up. So I have not been able to go to my workout classes. :frowning:

#13

[QUOTE=mvp;8332309]
OP, I think you have a few things going on.

  1. You are stiff in your hips, and in your knees, in that order of decreasing severity.

  2. Like lots of American hunt seat riders, you stabilize your hips this way and have lots of strength there. It’s the physically easier alternative to getting core strength for some of us. I include myself in that group.

2a. You absorb shock in your lower back, all the way up to about where your bra band is. Then you round your shoulders above and get a little more shock absorption. Again, this is easier than relaxing your hips and using your core to do the same job.

  1. You have some twist in your upper body, I think you drop and round your right shoulder. I see that in the first video as you are coming toward the camera near the end.

  2. Your horse’s current state of unbalance plus your stiff hips together produce the booty wiggle you are talking about. See, he moves his body diagonally from outside hind, to the lateral pair to inside fore. You, being like a fixed clothes pin on him from your belt to knee can only move diagonally right with his body-- and that shows up in your butt wiggle.

4a. That “staying soft” from the belt to your bra is/was supposed to be how the forward seat rider evened things out and looked smooth at the top. But let’s be clear, the other piece of this equation is a horse who is straight and uphill… a little farther along than yours. But if you watch enough video taken from above, as in the stands at a big horse show, you can see all sorts of good American seat riders doing those small circles with their seat that you do. You can see this a lot with very forward Grand Prix horses who, I imagine, are pretty stiff in their back.

So the fix is to find your hips and discover how to relax them. That’s a tall order in terms of generating body awareness. One good place to start for you would be to alternate a two point and sitting at the canter. Do three strides of each and concentrate on making the two point feel as much like sitting-- right under your ass-- as you can.

To me, that means that you learn to find that broad, hand-sized spot on your inner thighs that stays on the horse all the time. It doesn’t change a lot whether you sit or stand in a two-point. The rest of your leg doesn’t grip; you’re just standing there with your heels down, in balance. I’m sure your hips follow when you sit, so this can be a way to help identify the part of your body that you need to learn to stabilize or allow to follow.

Sooner or later, the twist in your upper body will get in the way, even with this problem, because it usually means that you are riding “scissors style”-- with one foot more forward than the other. That, too, can be fixed. It is devastating for anyone trying to produce a straight horse. And you’ll need that so that you can find distances from either lead.

The scissors thing is also a “cheat” for someone like you-- a good, competent rider who somehow didn’t get core strength and “got the job done” such that no one really nit-picked her equitation. And FWIW, it is easy to cheat on the core strength and straightness issues in the American Forward Seat.

This is a start. I hope it helps.[/QUOTE]

MVP, thank you! You are extremely helpful. I think are correct about me on all your points, especially the rolling to the right. I get yelled about that often, but I just can’t seem to straighten up. I am hacking him today, so I will try to do some of the two point and sit the cater, along with other exercises you all have given me.

#14

I am another Forward Seat rider that rode mostly on my own. I ended up not doing things correctly and fell into several bad habits.

After finding a good riding instructor that was willing to let me teach her the technicalities of the Forward Seat I improved greatly, but I still had bad habits from my many years of going it alone.

I started to collect Forward Seat books. The one that helped the MOST was “School for Riding: A primer of modern horsemanship” by Sergei Kournakoff. Sergei Kournakoff was a partner of Vladimir Littauer when they had their riding school in NYC (Boots and Saddles?) This book is from one of the root teachers of the American Forward Seat.

My problems: I was always slouching in the saddle. My head seemed to inevitably look down at the horse. I basically ended up in the chair seat I had ridden as a child. Kournakoff’s remedies FIXED my decades old problems, though of course I have to continually apply his solutions.

This book is only available used, and on Amazon there is a copy available for $7.92 USD. This book is one that deserves to be reprinted. It helped me, even after over 40 years of studying and trying to ride a good, pure, Forward Seat, to improve my riding significantly.

ETA. This books covers the first twelve “lessons” a good rider needs to learn, the lessons for position, movement, and control of a FS rider and horse. Here are the basics that everyone needs to know but all too often are not taught in the riding lessons.

Together with “Riding Forward: Modern horsemanship for beginners” (also published as “The Forward Seat: Modern horsemanship for beginners”) by Vladimir Littauer, just about all the problems of Forward Seat riders are covered and effective solutions are provided for our problems. After all many of our riding problems arise from not learning the proper way of riding at the beginning of our journey.

#15

[QUOTE=SCI;8332326]
MVP you explained that very well![/QUOTE]

Yuh-huh, because I can look at the OP and her problems and say “Takes one to know one.”

Learning to use my hips like a dressage rider helped me figure out what I was doing that was special/wrong as a hunter rider.

Also, some old hunter pros I know have neck problems. “WTF?,” you ask, “Or all the parts of their body that could hurt, why way up there?” The answer I have gotten is a two-parter:

  1. Because they have those stable, strong hip and move the job of shock absorption up the body, they end up using their neck, too. This about how the lash of a whip moves around faster than the rest. But they aren’t crazy with the head movement… so the neck ends up moving more than you’d think… from what’s happening below.

  2. When helmets got big and heavy, that increased the stress put on those moving vertebrae for those who wore hard hats all day, every day on lots of horses.

#16

FWIW, experiment with opening your hip joints, draping your legs around your horse and letting your seat open and flow with your horse.

Tension creates tension, so your horse is reflecting your tightness and attempting to find his balance in tightness. If you can let go of your tension, things will improve and the feel will become totally different.

A exercise ball or a Balimo chair can really help you get the feeling you are seeking. Let the ball, the chair, your horse create the movement for you to follow. Once you have that, you will be able to communucate more effectively through your seat.

As an aside, it seems to this old timer that riders are not developing a good, communucating seat these days. In an attempt to do so, tightness is created and the whole picture suffers. The forward seat used to be taught very much as a following seat, which demands softness. Perhaps we learned it best by much bareback riding…my riding school required 6 weeks of bareback lessons every winter, including jumping…and work without stirrups , not locking leg into position (which throws balance off if hip angle is insufficiently open). Also, FS does not mean standing against the motion while leaning forward… it means riding in a soft, forward -inclined, balanced position which can easily change from sitting, light seat, half seat. Seat is everything!!

Hope this is a little helpful.

Good luck with your quest…it can be done!

#17

I have to say, I struggle in forward seat to keep my base solid enough. After reading part of this thread this morning, I tried to think “butt out” during my ride and that really helped! Will see if it helps on an ongoing basis. I pretty much ride on my own and meet my trainer at shows so I get in bad habits. Thank goodness my horse is a saint!

#18

Riding on a 20 meter lunge line with no reins or stirrups also helps. Bareback is also good because you really, really feel how the horse is moving.

I think the description of the American seat as a following seat is brilliant.

#19

Well, the Whippersnappers of today are riding a different horse than were, say, the Americans who won at the 1984 Olympics in Hermes saddles.

I think the light, following seat can work on all of 'em, but it’s more encouraged by the forward-thinking, relatively narrow TB. If you try to do the same on a wide, “push ride” of a WB, you will probably end up driving with your seat some time. Witness the Big Eq kids of a few years back “posting at the canter.” To me, that’s a response to a horse who is chronically behind the leg.

It’s a lot harder to stay balanced in that following seat on a horse who isn’t that forward ride.

#20

Another thought from another direction. To help keep your heels under your hips, and avoid chair seat, think of kneeling.

Instead of worrying about sticking out your butt, think more of bending forward at the waist, chest up, chin up, thighs lightly in contact with the saddle. No gripping allowed.

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