The forever asked question....Grain Advice

I have a 13 year old OTTB. To keep this short and quickly list all things that may help get proper answers, he has been with me since he was 5. Always been a bit of a hard keeper but never skin and bones. In 2016 he went on stall rest for 6 months due to a ligament injury, he is now back in full work and happy to have a job. We (vet and I) attributed his body changes to his lack of exercise and turnout for so long.
This winter we were very unhappy with his weight and muscle loss. We finally determined he has cushings this december and he is now on a half tab of pracend as the blood tests show that is keeping his levels where they should be. Fast forward 2 months, we chose to not change his grain too much and see how to prcaend helped with some more pole work to get the hind end into shape.
Break down of his grain:
3/4 qt nutrena balance
1 qt pro force fuel
1/2 qt nutrena boost
1 qt hay stretcher - added the same time we found out about the cushings

supplements:
u gard am and pm
pro bios am and pm

As well as 2nd cut hay 3-4 times a day outside and in stall and a lunch or night check meal of soaked timothy cubes.

With all of this being said I am far from happy with any weight progress and am feeling frustrated with amount of time i am spending picking up bags of grain and money i am spending on buying so many different kinds.

I need recommendations! Beet pulp? drop nutrena? triumph?

Is that 1x or 2x a day? I assume that’s a total.

Why did you chose those amounts of those things?

I don’t know the density of the PFF, but I don’t think it’s a heavy feed. If I assume 1lb/qt, then that’s 1lb. On top of 1lb of the Balance (most ration balancer are 3c/lb), and 2c of the Boost, that is just not a lot of calories. 4c hay stretcher is maybe 1lb, so maybe another 800-900 calories.

[quoteWith all of this being said I am far from happy with any weight progress and am feeling frustrated with amount of time i am spending picking up bags of grain and money i am spending on buying so many different kinds.

I need recommendations! Beet pulp? drop nutrena? triumph?[/QUOTE]

Pick 1 feed, not a ration balancer, and feed the appropriate amount. The PFF is 20% NSC, so not what I’d consider appropriate for this horse. What other brands do you have access to? If only Nutrena, I’d choose the SafeChoice Special Care. But if this is from Tractor Supply, which carries Purina, then if you’re on the East Coast ask if they will get Triple Crown Sr for you - MUCH better option.

Triumph is not a viable line of feeds. Its NSC ranges from 22-34% :no:

Beet pulp is valuable, but it’s a high volume:calorie ratio, and not something to add to the mix right now.

How much hay is he getting, in weight?

Why is he getting such small amounts of so many different things?

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I agree not to feed a mix of different feeds. It is a harder than I do math problem to figure out nutrition that way.

i feed according to instructions and buy different things for horses with diff requirements.

I feel your pain! Trying to juggle feeds for a hard keeper can be overwhelming. My horse doesn’t have Cushings, so I can’t speak to that piece, but he was also never a hard keeper until recently. I took my horse back home to my old boarding barn during my summer break from college. He’d always done well there, so I didn’t ask questions about what he was being fed when I probably should have. He was being fed a weird combo of grains at a fraction of the amount he should have been getting. For context, he’s a 1300lb, 16.2hh Warmblood cross. He dropped weight, had no energy, and lost muscle. I brought him back up to school with me and had full control of what he was being fed again.

I worked with my vet and an equine nutritionist, and the moral of the story was to find a grain that suited his needs in terms of energy content, protein, etc. and feed the amount recommended on the bag. I cringed at first when I was told to feed my horse a minimum of 4lbs of Tribute Kalm Ultra every day, but he started to perk up right away. Our problem over the summer was that he just wasn’t getting enough calories.

I don’t know if Tribute feeds are available in your area, but I’ve had fabulous results with them. Their Kalm N’ EZ grain has an NSC of 14.3%, which might be more suitable for your horse. The ProForce Fuel has an NSC of 20%. Several hard keepers at the barn where I board get Kalm N’ EZ, and seem to do really well with it.

My advice would be to find one grain that fits your horse’s needs and feed that to at least the minimum amount directed on the bag. Once you’ve been doing that for a while, you can add calories as needed if you’re not seeing results. Also, it might be worth it to have your hay tested. That might give you some more info about what you’re feeding and where any nutritional gaps could be.

Good luck! :slight_smile:

If you can get your hands on Buckeye Safe n Easy Performance, I’d give it a try. If it had been available for my PSSM TB when he was competing, I’d have used it in a heartbeat. 13% NSC, 10% fat. https://www.buckeyenutrition.com/products/safe-n-easy-performance-pelleted-feed.aspx
Triple Crown Senior is another good option for a low NSC, high fat feed.

If he’s getting the recommended amount of 4-6 lbs of fortified feed, he shouldn’t need the ration balancer. You may find you don’t even need the Empower Boost. Dump the hay stretcher and give him more of the fortified feed. He just needs more calories than he’s getting from his forage and the current feed program. You’ll probably be looking at 2-3 lbs each for two meals which is a manageable meal; if he still needs more, mix some with his timothy cube mash.

"Break down of his grain:
3/4 qt nutrena balance
1 qt pro force fuel
1/2 qt nutrena boost
1 qt hay stretcher - added the same time we found out about the cushings

supplements:
u gard am and pm
pro bios am and pm

As well as 2nd cut hay 3-4 times a day outside and in stall and a lunch or night check meal of soaked timothy cubes."

@driscollj - If you link your products people will be more likely to look at the guaranteed analysis and ingredients and comment. Also, we need to know how many pounds of the hay, cubes, stretcher and concentrates he is getting.

For most ottbs, you want to ballpark 2% of the horse’s weight in hay/pasture a day. So at least 20 pounds a day of forage. Then you add a concentrate if the hay/forage is not enough for him to hold his weight. READ YOUR FEEDING INSTRUCTIONS. You need to feed the product according to the instructions.

I prefer feeding a premium concentrate according to the instructions, keeping it as simple as possible. It’s usually the most economical way to make sure your horse is getting exactly what he needs and not too much of anything. Since you are feeding Nutrena, can you contact them as see what they suggest wrt his weight and metabolic condition? As well meaning and kind as the people on this board are, they do not cite their credentials (if they have any) and they may give you the wrong advice.

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I will never understand why people continually add small amounts of random things, instead of increasing one type of hay and grain.
Step 1. Free choice hay
Step 2. Pick a low NSC grain, feed the recommended about
Step 3. If still not gaining, then add fat items such as oil, rice bran, etc

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<3 <3 <3 <3

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I will also add that I have seen utterly incompetent advice from brand reps. Far more than just the odd occasional time, I have seen Nutrena recommend Safechoice Original for the IR horse because of their “controlled starch” formula which they seem to think somehow negates a higher NSC.

Owners need to become educated on the science of what all this means so they have some way to intelligently discuss these things. It’s a process, no doubt. Only when the details of feeding - sugar, starch, ingredients - are at least somewhat understood, can anyone start to figure out whether they should be questioning advice. And IMHO, everyone should ask for more information and not blindly trust.

It would not surprise me at all to hear a Nutrena rep tell the OP the ProForce Fuel is just fine for this horse either. I’d truly hope not, but it’s been done before, so it can happen again.

I don’t intend that to imply the OP shouldn’t contact Nutrena. By all means do. But not knowing what one doesn’t know can lead to going with advice that isn’t suitable, no matter the source.

The source is most important. Your vet that has seen your horse would be the first source for a feed recommendation, and probably has no skin in the game wrt brands. Check published studies and read journal articles. They don’t care about brands either.

A brand rep is going to sell their brand (duh). If you question the brand rep’s recommendation, run it by your vet. If some anonymous internet poster told you that the NSC value of a particular feed is the most important factor (NOT overall NSC wrt diet balance) then ask your vet or the feed rep or both or even a feed rep from another brand.

Getting hung up on one factor, like the NSC of a particular feed, and NOT looking at the overall diet is where people get into trouble.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. It’s possible a particular feed was appropriate for a particular horse at a particular time, or the person asking the questions did not present enough information for someone to make a different recommendation.

Except that a great many vets get their 1 course on nutrition from what is often a Purina “instructor”. They may not have any stake in recommending specific brands, but often the only one they have been “indoctrinated” for is Purina. And it’s so widely available. And they just go with what Purina taught them.

A brand rep is going to sell their brand (duh). If you question the brand rep’s recommendation, run it by your vet. If some anonymous internet poster told you that the NSC value of a particular feed is the most important factor (NOT overall NSC wrt diet balance) then ask your vet or the feed rep or both or even a feed rep from another brand.

Most vets know about as much about nutrition as they do feet. Almost nothing. It’s just not any sort of focus in school, and unless they branch out and start to specialize in either, they pretty much don’t know what they don’t know. A vet is not my first choice for nutritional advice.

Getting hung up on one factor, like the NSC of a particular feed, and NOT looking at the overall diet is where people get into trouble.

I agree, you can’t ignore a 20% hay at 20lb a day in your quest to avoid a couple pounds of a 20% concentrate. But you also can’t ignore the NSC of a given feed when that feed might be fed at 5-10lb/day. There’s something to be said wrt how quickly those pounds enter the horse. 20% NSC spread over 24 hours is not at all the same thing as 20% of 5lb in 1 hour.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. It’s possible a particular feed was appropriate for a particular horse at a particular time, or the person asking the questions did not present enough information for someone to make a different recommendation.

I agree, which is why questions need to be asked, and answered. But every starting point should be based on what is known about the horse and the feed. In this case, appropriate amounts of a 20% NSC feed is NOT an appropriate starting point for a known Cushing’s horse, where developing insulin resistance is very likely not that far down the road.

It may end up that this horse could be perfectly fine on 4-5lb of 20% NSC feed for 10 years. But that’s playing Russian Roulette, especially when there are much more appropriate feeds given alllll that is known about Cushing’s, NSC, IR, and more.

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Do these know nothing vets ever bother to do a little education on their own via continuing ed etc? Do they basically think that they know everything they need to know upon graduation to practice veterinarian medicine for the next 40 years? So can we give them credit for keeping up with all the latest research and developments wrt repro, sports medicine, drugs and medications and the effects and side effects, disease, parasites, but NOT nutrition? Maybe I’m running with the wrong crowd of vets, since the ones I know are well rounded, look at feet and legs all day long, many ride and compete, and all have an interest in the overall health of the horse to include diet and nutrition. They may not have taken a course titled Equine Nutrition, but they are intelligent people who understand the importance of nutrition on the overall health and performance of their patients and clients.

I attend the largest equine veterinarian conference every year and nutrition is very prominent in symposiums and discussions, and every brand is represented as are all the big supplement and nutraceutical players. So it’s not just the vets in my little pocket of the country (Mid Atlantic) that I am familiar with. A vet would have to hide under a rock to avoid nutrition.

Maybe the anonymous internet posters who did not go to vet school and do not have a formal education in equine nutrition are a better source? If someone on this board has real credentials, have at it.

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NO vet has the time or money to delve more into every lightly-touched on area of equine management. Most vets are GPs, not specialists. I want my vet to know WAY more about disease and injury than nutrition or feet. I can learn most of what I need to know from nutritionists, the NRC guidelines, and peer-reviewed studies that I Have time and desire to learn. I don’t have the time or resources to learn about other things that include medications and stitches and ultrasounds and xrays

So no, most vets DON’T do much in the way of CE for nutrition and feet, and I’m ok with that.

The good vets will know they know too little about nutrition and feet and tell clients that.

The arrogant ones will think they know all they need to know, make the poor customer so afraid of protein because the vet FLIPS over a 30% protein content in a ration balance (because they have NO concept of needing the context of how much is fed), and make the poor horse so miserable and “needing” hock injections because the vet just sees a low heel, so tells the (sometimes equally uneducated) farrier to put wedges on the horse, with nobody understanding how bad the long toes are making that horse feel.

I see the results of those vets all the time. They get posted right here.

So can we give them credit for keeping up with all the latest research and developments wrt repro, sports medicine, drugs and medications and the effects and side effects, disease, parasites, but NOT nutrition?

Even then, far too many vets only know about parasites what they learned 20+ years ago. But you bet they are a lot more up to date on drugs because the pharmaceutical companies make sure of that. Vets aren’t making money staying up to date on parasite resistance. Much more comes their way via AAEP newsletters and conferences for drugs, antibiotics and disease, and as that’s the bulk of their business, yes, that’s where they are going to focus.

Maybe I’m running with the wrong crowd of vets, since the ones I know are well rounded, look at feet and legs all day long, many ride and compete, and all have an interest in the overall health of the horse to include diet and nutrition. They may not have taken a course titled Equine Nutrition, but they are intelligent people who understand the importance of nutrition on the overall health and performance of their patients and clients.

You’re lucky. But your circle of influence is not common in the general vet world.

I attend the largest equine veterinarian conference every year and nutrition is very prominent in symposiums and discussions, and every brand is represented as are all the big supplement and nutraceutical players. So it’s not just the vets in my little pocket of the country (Mid Atlantic) that I am familiar with. A vet would have to hide under a rock to avoid nutrition.

Holding symposiums doesn’t mean people are going. Of course some specialize in that. Mine isn’t a total noob to nutrition, but 15 years ago I was the one who found the connection between copper/zinc and scratches, not her, and it wasn’t that hard to find. She already offered me all she knew with the medicated scrubs and soaps and antibiotics and “immune stimulants”.

Maybe the anonymous internet posters who did not go to vet school and do not have a formal education in equine nutrition are a better source? If someone on this board has real credentials, have at it.

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t assume that all vets know enough about nutrition to help a client and at the same thing assume no mere mortal does. Besides, I am not the one saying “don’t ask that group of people, they can’t possibly know anything”. You are saying that nooooooobody in the internet can possibly know enough to guide the OP, while allllllllll vets can. It doesn’t work like that. Seriously - the number of people I’ve had to calm down about their vet totally freaking out about the “so high!!” protein level in ration balancers is cringe-worthy.

Do you know how many vets still think excess protein causes growth problems in foals? Talk about behind the times, and by decades! And some of those are “reproduction specialists”!

8 years ago I had to tell my vet about the microdosing of Lutylase to cycle a mare. It was not new then. My vet does a good bit of reproductive work. Yet she’d never heard of that because she knew what she’d known from the start and it was working for her. Unfortunately she didn’t know that simple change that had been around and easily found with any reasonable CE could have been saving many mares from the dreaded cramping associated with the full dose.

Do you know the number of vets who still think the best way to feed a foundered horse is with the lowest quality hay that can be found? And that’s all - feed that crap hay and nothing else. That too was debunked many years ago.

So no, they are not keeping up with the times on even some of the most basic issues.

Everyone has to learn enough to be able to have some reasonable level of confidence that what they are hearing from anyone is valid information. Blindly trusting someone just because they are the professional, or talk a good game, is a good way to get into trouble. It doesn’t matter who that person is.

But at least discussions here and other similar places get out some terms and issues that might have not been even a thought before, and in the end, it IS up to the OP (or anyone) to decide what to do.

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That would be too easy!

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Anecdotal evidence is not real evidence. If a poster has real credentials on equine nutrition, let’s hear them. I don’t think that lumping all vets in one basket based on one person’s limited geographical experience or the comments of some anonymous people on an internet board is real evidence or a good representative sampling of a population.

I presently do Risk Management, but I do not have a degree in Risk Management. I have a Masters in General Business and took ONE class in Risk Management. Yet I am really good at what I do based on demand for my services, measurable results and testimonials from past and present clients. Many of the courses I took support my profession and are important to my ability to do my job, such as finance(and more finance), statistics, insurance operations, etc without actually being called Risk Management.

All biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, physiology, anatomy, cell biology etc classes at both the undergrad and grad level will support a professional’s understanding and comprehension of nutrition without having to actually be called Equine Nutrition. So maybe they only took ONE course in nutrition, but they have a vast amount of knowledge supporting that one course and their additional voluntary self education. Take a look at Cornell’s courses:

http://courses.cornell.edu/preview_p…=31&poid=15378

Most vets are either large or small animal specialists. You will find further large animal specialization in areas that will support this, and in more populated areas you will find vets that specialize in repro, racetrack, or sports medicine (competition horses). Nutrition touches all of those.

@JB “You are saying that nooooooobody in the internet can possibly know enough to guide the OP, while allllllllll vets can.” No, I’m not. That is an exaggeration.

“Blindly trusting someone just because they are the professional, or talk a good game, is a good way to get into trouble. It doesn’t matter who that person is.” I totally agree. I don’t consider someone who does not have a degree or certification in some kind of science related to nutrition to be a good source, no matter what their level of self education. That is why we have licenses and boards and certifications. If a source will not or cannot list credentials, then what good is it?

Not aimed at anyone in particular, but if you are self-educated and not following a professionally designed curriculum, then you just have to hope you’ve managed to stumble upon everything you need to know, and haven’t left out anything that could be harmful. If you are self-educated, then you ARE asking people for blind trust.

And yours are?

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but horse’s with Cushings can tend to have a poor top line even if they are feed a correct diet.

If the horse was out of work and on stall rest for a prolonged time and on a reduced diet due to the lack of work/stall rest. Would it seem prudent to increase the protein the horse is ingesting to make up for the loss and need to build muscle? If the horse has issues with sugars, it would seem that going with 1-2 lbs of a ration balancer and ad lib hay/forage would be better than feeding a high NSC feed to minimum amounts. It can take time for a protein /AA deficient horse to build muscle.

Already stated my credentials in the above post. What are yours?

No, your credentials in equine nutrition. I didn’t see those above.

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