Following along with the current topics, here is a short article IRT the future of the PRE in Dressage. https://www.usprea.com/2020/04/the-future-of-the-pre-dressage-horse/?fbclid=IwAR0Ukvcs-_cy4SCgT4bfzEH5HFlXQHx1el111N9g7kxhGMkV0csqK45Cs9s
From the articleā¦āTherefore, PRE breeders must move to breeding with more focus on sportā¦ā
Let me translateā¦we are now going to be breeding PREās to look and move more like WBās.
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If you want to compete in competitive dressage, yes. But of course there are PRE/Andalusian/Luso breeders who breed their horses for OTHER disciplines. Just like ANY OTHER BREED. Do you not think that certain WB lines are specialized for dressage? Likewise, for jumping or as a hunter? There are QH who are 17 hands and move like a hunter; there are QH lines who are 14.2 and are built to cut cows. Would you expect that 14.2 hand QH to be pinned equally with the 17H daisy cutter in a HUS class? What is wrong with breeding lines of any animal to do the job you want??
And I would remind you that the USPRE ābreedā registry was developed here in the US, primarily for dressageā¦ (look up itās short history). Other Andalusians, such as those registered with IALHA, do many different disciplines. As do many PREs.
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Iām more or less with @pluvinel. PREs donāt have the market share in most of the world to support a diversity of type like you see with QHs. If not done very, very carefully, a push towards Olympic sport marketability (especially without a corresponding celebration of other types and how they succeed at the pinnacles of other pursuits) will just collapse the genetic diversity of yet another breed.
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Yeah, I think youāre already seeing a lot of that with the breed though. You have the older lines and a very specific body type and conformation, then you have the newer, more sporty lines - they tend to be taller and sleeker. This seems to be happening with many of the baroque breeds though. Friesians have been experiencing this for years as well.
They have amazing hearts and minds. I lease a Carthusian bloodline PRE and everything about him it turns out is what I look for in a horse. Iāve been working with another old bloodline Carthusian stallion and many of the quirks and admiral traits I found in my guy, I am also seeing in this stallion.
I feel like I am seeing some rather spindly PRE on occasion and I might actually be preferring Lusitanos. But across all the Iberian registries there is a lot of variation in natural gait (higher, longer, floatier, or fairly average). We have an Andy breed show locally with usually lots of entries in the inhand classes which is very interesting for comparing basic conformation and movement.
Itās also true of Friesians. I once watched a Friesian harness demo that must have had a dozen horses in the (huge) arena in one, two, and four horse configurations. You could have two matched horses in harness together with very different gaits.
I ended up with a Lusitano, in part because I found a greater likelihood of a great canter in that breed, as compared to the PREās I saw. Many of the PRE horses I shopped were āleg-flindersāĀ bred by lovely people who were not familiar with sport breeding because they were more focused on making a successful saddle seat/ English pleasure horse. Or to go for the versatility route. The Lusitano breeding directive has always been focused on sportā¦and in that breed as well, there are lines more suited to fighting bulls than dressage.
The PRE breed split from Lusitano not so very long ago, and could easily choose to develop more lines for sport. Jackass Mt Ranch in Wa is doing a great jobā¦I wanted a going young horse, or I would have bought one of her babies.
I guess I donāt see that itās impossible to keep breed type, while also developing lines which are moreā¦or lessā¦baroque. Of course on either end of the continuum youād have problems, but I donāt think you can automatically state that the breed will be tragically altered to be like warmbloods.
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Oh dear. IMHO making the PRE into a saddle seat horse is much much worse than doing a dressage focused breeding program. The real talent of the Iberian horse is the handiness and collection which saddle seat doesnāt use at all.
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I rather thought folks would key on this quote, rather than the idea of developing discipline-focused lines (as every horse breed and registry does)
"I would like to start by reminding two very important topics, that I believe we all agreed on:
First that all horses must be judged by the way they perform, and judges can never mark a horse based on his origin or breed. As Kyra Kyrkland has said: āa good horse is a good horse, no matter what breed.āĀ.
Second that that the PRE horse has (a) a natural talent for collected movements specially piaffe, passage, and pirouettes, because of the way they are built which is due to the history of their breeding (b) a great mind and character, they are usually willing, sensitive active and forward going and very motivated to work. In a nutshell they have a great ācorazĆĀ³nāĀ heart."
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Itās already begun.
The whole reason why I have a PRE is that I wanted to get away from Warmbloods :lol: no offense to Warmblood owners/riders, I too had one not long ago.
I hope that people wonāt breed exclusively for extravagant movement and throw brains/rideability out the window. Inevitably some will because money.
Iād love to comment further but I donāt fancy typing a whole diatribe about the matter in my phone.
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Yesā¦and there is a raging controversy within the Portuguese Lusitano also.
I met with the head of APSL during a revision here in the US. He basically said that my stallion which came from bullfighting lines, and who was revised and inscribed in the stud book, may not be approved in this day and age because they (the stud book) are looking for different qualitiesā¦eg., big trots to compete in dressage vs the traditional qualities of the Lusitano which was as a working cow horse with versatility and handiness. Lots of controversy.
And I also had a WBā¦a Hanoverian by Dynamoā¦a pedigree with big Hano names Goldfisch-II, & Duellant. He was 17-3hh, chestnut with lots of chrome and a blaze. That horse bought me points at shows, so I know what that movement will buy.
But the Lusitano made me a better rider and horseman. Unfortunately, EPM derailed our competitive show journey.
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Re the boldedā¦ Who is doing this? Really, who and where? Iāve never heard of nor seen PREās being bred for English pleasure or saddle seat. Then again, I have only bought in Spain and maybe itās more of an American thing? Either way the thought of it has given me anxiety :lol:
I do think some PRE breeders do breed for āsportā and there are both Lusitano horses and PREās in working equitation. I think working equitation really highlights the natural capabilities of both breeds. Just as a side note.
I do want a Lusitano, but mostly because I just want to own both breeds, I only have experience with PREās. I do find I have to look at each Lusitano or PRE as an individual since there are different movers out there in both breeds.
Ah, my most recent Warmblood that I referred to was also a big chestnut with chrome and a blaze (Numero Uno and Weltmeyer-dam side). I 100% know that my PRE has made me a better rider and horseman. Even when I first got him as a just backed 4 year old, he was already teaching me so much. I never knew I had so much to learn from a green horse (he wasnāt my first greenie).
Heās at the equivalent of American 3rd level and schooling some 4th now. But I still look at his stable mate at a similar level float across the arena (big Hannoverian). Weāll never quite have that. But that big mover is also really struggles with collection and some movements that come more natural to my PRE, so we both have our stengths and weaknesses.
āā¹āā¹āā¹āā¹āā¹āā¹So sorry to hear about your horseās EPM.
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It is an American thing.
Google 
https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/OkQkā¦itano-division
look at the breakdown of classes. SO many saddle seat, country pleasure/English pleasure (those are flat-saddle classes), and western pleasure. Not so many dressage classes.
Soo I did Google and came across a video that reminded me of a Morgan or Arabian horse show. There were Andalusians (and possibly Lusitanos) doing English pleasure, Western pleasure, and Saddle seatā¦I just did not know this was a thing.
The saddle seat looked weird, the western wasnāt terrible, and English pleasure was odd but alright.
I did not know this was a thing, and honestly, I am not sure how I feel about it :lol: I mean, I support anything that supports the breed, but some of the horses looked out of place. To me, atleast.
I am not conflicted. I detest it
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The American Registry for Spanish/Portugese horses are responsible for the āthingā.
https://ialha.org/shows/
They have been operating in the USA since the 60ās.
from their website;
"The first record of an Andalusian imported into the US was in 1964 and the American Andalusian Horse Association (AAHA) was formed about the same time. In 1996 that organization was incorporated in New Mexico as a private Registry. Horses were entered into the first US registry based on verification from a set of studbooks brought from Spain. In 1977 a group of likeminded breeders met to discuss and develop a new organization which they named the International Andalusian Horse Association (IAHA). By 1979 they had filed for tax-exempt status and started to maintain a new Registry owned by the membership. In 1980 the first IAHA Studbook was printed and distributed. In the meantime, the AAHA was continuing to maintain its own private studbook. During the early 1990ās there were several efforts to merge the two organizations and the studbooks.
During that time the American Andalusian Horse Association(AAHA) changed its name to the American Andalusian & Lusitano Association. Finally in 1995 both organizations approved the merger and the new organization became the International Andalusian & Lusitano Horse Association ā the IALHA as we know it today. During those early years our registry rules were being written and expanded to ensure that the horses we accept for registration can be traced in an unbroken line to the studbooks of Spain and/or Portugal. In 1993 we added a studbook and registry for Half-Andalusians with the requirement that one parent must be a purebred. At the same time rules were developed to protect the owners and breeders of our horses. Requirements for microchips or individual freeze brands and blood typing were added in 1992 & 1993 and full DNA parent verification in was required by 2000. These rules help to ensure the identity of the horse and its accurate pedigree."
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My horse is registered with IALHA. I will not be renewing my membership. They do the USDF āallBreedsā - a few years ago I was CH in three different divisions. I got a paper certificate with the details typed in. FOr that I rode my butt off in 4 shows and 8 testsā¦ all their efforts go to their National Championship, where all those other classes listed above are offered. And of course big bling.
Well, if you want to pin in dressage, why chose a PRE if you believe that they canāt pin in dressage? The breed developed in a specific location and has specific characteristics which are highly prized by the breeders in their homeland. The cobra at Spanish shows is designed precisely to display the consistency of mares in the stud. The huge variation found between different types of QH is such that the only thing they have in common is registration in the breed stud book and Iām not convinced that is good for the maintenance of prized breed-defining characteristics. If any are left.
There is no doubt that Spanish breeders are improving the trot and have largely bred out the dishing that was once a prized characteristic. Another change is that judges have become more used to seeing Iberian breeds in dressage. Better training of horses, riders and judges allow a better assessment of correct performance.
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You need to understand the blood % that an AQHA horse can be registered as AQHA. Those 17h quarter horses are more TB than QH. You really donāt want PREs going that way. Youāll destroy the breed.
Why canāt people be happy with the breed. They are wonderful horses. No they canāt compete against the purpose bred warmblood. Why would you want them too? Youāll end up perverting the breed for the sake of a ribbon.
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