The Horse Aggressive Horse

[Equestrianette]

Now that Spankie is cleared for turn out (see thread Proximal Suspensory Desmitis for what he just overcame) I’d like to start investigating the root of his aggression towards other horses.

When he is stalled near other horses he will lunge and kick at them through the fence. In my care (since he was 3) he has never had to worry about food or fight over it.

In the warm up ring at shows he has been known to attack other horses (poor kids that don’t understand ring etiquette or what red ribbons mean even though it’s spelled out). I joke that he thinks he’s a Calvary horse but also it’s not a joke. As long as I have enough space I can ensure he is not near other horses and I don’t have a problem.

I had him turned out with a mean little Connemara pony mare and they got along but then he started acting rude because of a gelding/mare dynamic. (This was long ago, my apologies for not being able to describe this situation as well as I can the others.)

Our other horses we are afraid for anyone getting hurt. He obviously can’t afford any extracurricular shenanigans since he’s more in a fragile transition period. No intentions on trying to change the situation immediately, maybe later 6 months to a year?

We have 17 head at home and the kicker is most of these are mini horses, ponies, and donkeys (yay pony party business!) We have some big horses with a mix of personalities. My mare Ember gets along with everyone, my wife’s gelding who is an OTTB and very kind, Happy is a recently gelded 2 year old colt and they were able to be turned out together previously. We also have a horse in for training and he’s pretty dominant. We also have a 3 year old mare that’s very bossy.

I think we all just don’t want anyone to get hurt. I think the most successful situation would be to integrate him into a larger herd. The 2 mares and 3 geldings, then adding Spankie. Anything less and I feel like any of the horses will be prone to being buddy sour.

Then there are property management dynamics. We have 2 pastures. A 1 acre pasture in front which is where he has always been turned out. Then we have a 5 acre pasture in the back, this pasture struggles because we are often in a drought and honestly having that many horses on it (even with a round bale) scares me about losing my coastal grass. It’s already so sparse.

All the minis and donks are in designated dry lot paddocks in the middle.

I feel like I have a better chance of getting the turn out situation solved before I get the warm up arena situation solved. I thought maybe he was aggressive from being in chronic pain for so many years but he still is aggressive now. One example was I was hand grazing him in the pasture and there was a mini turned out for a bit. She walked by and he pinned his ears at her, that didn’t elicit much confidence that it’s related to a pain issue.

Is this how he will always be? Do they grow out of it? Can this be worked through and overcome?

[sascha]

@Equestrianette

In the warm up ring at shows he has been known to attack other horses (poor kids that don’t understand ring etiquette or what red ribbons mean even though it’s spelled out). I joke that he thinks he’s a Calvary horse but also it’s not a joke. As long as I have enough space I can ensure he is not near other horses and I don’t have a problem.

@Equestrianette

Is this how he will always be?

Oh. My.

Yes, this horse will always be like this if you continue to allow it.

You don’t need space. You need to teach your horse that its manners are to be turned to 11 at all times when in the company of a human whether that human is on the ground or on its back. Zero exceptions. Exceptions get people and horses injured.

I count myself very lucky that I got thrown in ‘the deep end’ riding baby horses in weekly quadrille practices. I learnt that the most aggressive horse could get its act together and behave like a respectable citizen because they HAD to. I’ve carried that (working in close quarters, even touching at times, and ZERO tolerance for even thinking of any bad behaviour) over to every horse since and it’s made them all bold, brave, and safe. I could ride them directly at another person or horse and expect them to hit them if I asked. I also have zero fear of them doing anything to another horse or person if not asked to push them around. There is no kicking, biting, striking, etc. And because of the games they learn when first under saddle, they can also take an oops from another horse and shrug it off - side swiped by another horse at a hand gallop? No big deal, carry on. Oh, the horse is now loose and you want me to chase it down? I’m game, let’s go.

Manners. Manners. Manners. ALL the manners.

Solving all the manners issues while in the company of a human may go a ways to helping in turnout, but turnout is time off to be a horse, that’s best managed by making sure that groups are compatible.

[ThreeWishes]

No way would I take this horse to shows even with a red ribbon. Unless I’m misunderstanding…. Because there is a difference between a horse who cannot be crowded and will throw a kick when run up on by a nervous errant child. And a horse who “attacks”. The warmup ring is notoriously a stressful place. Mostly because you cannot control other people… but if your horse attacks. I’d figure out a way to warmup outside the ring. And for any group class I’d make damn sure I’d retire to the center if I couldn’t avoid other people.

[beowulf]

My experience is stall/pasture aggression is normal, it is over resources, and the horses are much less aggressive without a fence/stall to protect them. Similar to leash aggression in dogs - it comes from anxiety and resource guarding.

Aggression while being ridden is usually pain related, with an enabling component by the handler. Don’t let them be rude/aggressive, redirect them. I know your gelding had a boatload of physical complaints to overcome so you may find that behavior wanes as his overall comfort improves.

The best thing for most horses is a copacetic group turnout arrangement. You just have to find a compatible set up.

My experience is most “horse aggressive horses” are really just poorly socialized horses that have to fight over resources (limited hay piles in small area hosting group turnout, etc). It is more a management problem.

[Simkie]

There are some types of tumors that secrete testosterone or adrenaline, and that can cause aggression. It may be worth discussing the possibility with your vet, although it’s a pretty rare thing.

[Equestrianette]

How do you correct this in the moment? I feel like his ground manners are good.

[Bluey]

A main problem with over the top aggressive horses is the people that keep trying to find a way to work around that and put others at risk doing so.

First, keep everyone safe, confine, isolate, train-retrain, vet check for any physical reasons for overly aggression, but FIRST, safety.

Why risk others “to see if we can make it work?”

Our old vet used to say, half his work was treating injuries caused by owners insisting horses get along together even when some just won’t.

[Equestrianette]

He attacks when a kid is riding too much horse they can’t control and runs right into me. My only choice in that moment was to turn him away to avoid a head on collision and as the horse inevitably ran into him he let loose with a buck in their direction. That was the attack. If they get too close he will pin his ears, even closer and he will stop and threaten with kicks.

[Equestrianette]

So is the solution to never take the horse out and retire him as a 6 year old?

[Bluey]

@Equestrianette

So is the solution to never take the horse out and retire him as a 6 year old?

There is no one solution, but whatever anyone tries, always keep in mind all around safety.
Don’t ride where others have out of control horses until yours is safe to be in the midst of that without acting up.
Don’t turn out with others in a smallish space to see if now they will like each other when they didn’t before.
There is no good solution, everything with such situations is a gamble, just keep trying to minimize the gamble as much as possible.

We had some aggressive horses and each one was a management problem, some resolved eventually, some didn’t for us.
Even horses that get along forever one day can take a dislike to each other and war ensues, hopefully no one gets run over fences or kicked up in a corner, etc.

Accidents happen so easily, with a badly aggressive horse they are way more apt to happen.

We put overly aggressive humans in jails to keep others safe.
Some horses are just not safe around others either.

Good luck finding a solution for your horse, sorry there is no pat answer to how to proceed other than the caution to keep everyone safe.

[sascha]

@Equestrianette

If they get too close he will pin his ears, even closer and he will stop and threaten with kicks.

Why do you allow this? Would you allow a child to raise a gun at another child that bumped them or got too close?

[Equestrianette]

This is exactly the feed back I was looking for. Thank you! I wasn’t sure what the options were but safety has always been at the forefront for me. Hind sight about the rider that couldn’t control her horse, I should have stepped out. The kicker was they were complaining about my horse kicking theirs when they were the ones not passing correctly and putting us in a dangerous situation. Perhaps he’s not an attack horse but he sure is ready on the defense. In bigger rings like the one at Texas rose we didn’t have issues. He doesn’t attack horses out of nowhere unprovoked so I will take that as a plus. I’m sure a lot will change in the coming years. I have witnessed him do things knowing he’s anticipating pain and when the pain doesn’t come he doesn’t react but I can tell he’s waiting and preparing if that makes sense? We are a long way out from traveling let alone showing.

[sascha]

To be fair, you’re going to need to start almost over with a very steady Eddy horse who can teach yours that being bumped into is not a big deal and bumping/shoving another horse around is a fun game and not a power play.

And if at any time during your game playing (I like to start with riding stirrup to stirrup then having each horse leg yield the other one and back and forth) your horse so much as threatens a nasty face - make it clear that that behaviour is 100% ALWAYS unacceptable.

[Equestrianette]

Can you clarify about what I am doing to allow this? That’s why I’m asking you for specifics in what you are supposed to do in this moment. We work on ground manners and stay consistent with them. However when he is in this state of mind and reactive, any physical punishments only escalate the negative behaviors. He fights back. I can correct him under normal conditions without an issue. Aside from removing ourselves from that situation any attempts to correct is like throwing gas on a fire. Historically. It could be different now and I won’t know until we experience it again.

[sascha]

@Equestrianette

Can you clarify about what I am doing to allow this?

It is not necessarily what you are doing now, but what you have failed to do leading up to this point. The horse has become aware that it’s ok to behave like an AH if something puts him a bit on edge - that your rules go out the window when he gets stressed.

Back up a whole lot of steps and fix that and you’ll fix the checking out of your rule book (which needs to actually exist 100% of the time ) during stress times. It’s going to take a giant pain in your arse end to change the rules and make them a hundred percent consistent, but I promise you, you will reap more benefits than you can ever imagine.

I’ve ridden a few socially AHish horses and it’s downright dangerous for everyone and I’ll literally throw all the training plan out and back up to the beginning of playing bumper cars with a seasoned horse to fix that before I carry on with the original plan. Nobody (you, the horse, the people around you, the unwittingly over-horsed kid) needs the stress of a stressball horse who takes its frustration out through violence.

[ThreeWishes]

Small spaces are obviously very triggering to your horse. The worst injuries I’ve ever seen in turnout have been in small overcrowded spaces. I’ve seen horses kept on vast acreage with horrible fencing and everything is copacetic. Once you get in tight. There is just no where to go.

Addressing the show ring issues. I can only speak from a H/J background. I detest the warmup ring. It can quickly become a real cluster F even with doing your best. I’d warmup in the most dead time of day or find somewhere else. The flat class won’t have horses riding towards you. So you can better manage traffic. The thing is …. You know your horse is reactive. Sometimes just getting defensive and tightening up can alert the horse to go on the defensive. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy.

[Cowboy_Girl]

He needs to stop learning its ok to fight back. EVER. There’s a reason cowboys start and re-start horses/teach manners in a combination of on the ground and on horseback. Find such a trainer. Have them help and teach you.
Stop taking this horse out in public until his manners are fixed. Its not worth a injuring someone.

[FjordBCRF]

First off is you need a plan which I gather is what you’re trying to get sorted. Until you have a plan, you don’t put the horse in a situation that could escalate the behavior. Full stop.

My thoughts would be you need go back to groundwork and slowly build up to a scenario that could cause him to react, SAFELY, at home and potentially with a trainer who has dealt with similar issues. I would not take this horse anywhere busy until you start seeing progress in a more controlled environment or you’re just asking for problems.

My childhood mare was not a fan of space invaders and wore a red ribbon in her tail. With that said though, she had some respect for me if I told her to “knock it off” an got after her if I thought she was going to think about it. We never had any issues thankfully.

[ThreeWishes]

And I truly sympathize with your struggle. I once rode a flat class on my old lease horse who did not appreciate crowding. I was on the rail cantering and another competitor came up the quarter line TIGHT and actually bumped his hip and clanged my stirrup with her stirrup! Cue a rodeo with bucking and angry horse face. I stood in the center and called it a day. In the end you have to set your horse up to be successful. And all you can control is yourself and your horse.

[Djones]

When the mini walks by and he makes ugly faces, he’d get in trouble with me. He is at work with people in charge, and he must stay clocked in.

Turn out with other geldings only removes one layer of complexity.

Undersaddle I simply don’t tolerate bs like this. Now that he’s overcoming injury, it’s more complicated. Were he mine, when he even THINKS about being ugly u/s his butt needs to be sent forward and with great haste. Redirect that mess into motion. Motion motion motion.

I am reminded of a nasty mare I attended a multi-rider clinic with. Her owner just freaking sat there like a lump while the mare slowed her strides to synch up her timing to spin her butt and kick. My horse and I and others spent half our time watching to ensure we didn’t get nailed. That “oh well” attitude by her passenger was ridiculous. I used my knock if off AHNT AHNT AHNT loud snarl at the mare once or twice and that was enough to give her pause.

Ride him out of it and make him work for a living.