The Horse Aggressive Horse

[Foxglove]

My new horse Bob (Nov. 20230) was sold below his value as he is herd aggressive and must be kept alone in a pasture. My vet said that his behavior is due to being used as a stud until his was 4, at which time he was gelded and trained under saddle. My vet, who has a large breeding operation, said the aggression in the pasture will never resolve. I have the room to keep him separate. He has his own 4 acres, a small woods, and a shed. He has horses on all four sides on the other side of the fence.

However, Bob has impeccable ground manners and is extremely well-mannered under saddle.

And someone pointed out to me, that all geldings were stallions at one time. I looked around on the web and found that many people have “late gelded” horses. The vast majority said there is never a problem. Some did site pasture aggression.

My point is that this is likely and hopefully a training issue. Gain control and respect on the ground, and that should translate to a better riding horse. John Lyon’s said: the horse you lead is the horse you ride.

[atr]

I’d keep this horse separate. Less stressful for him and for the other horses involved. I’ve had this problem with one of my own horses. Everyone was happier when he got to live alone and have his own private kingdom to rule.

I was extremely careful with him in shared spaces. I treated him like a stallion and didn’t put us in crowded and difficult to manage situations, and if we did end up in a busy warm-up, I made sure he was thoroughly occupied with me and what he and I were doing until we could get out of there. It’s the moments of inattention that cause the problems.

He was actually late gelded too, six I believe, and hadn’t been properly socialized with other horses as a youngster, as far as I could piece together.

[BrownDerby]

He’s been seriously stressed by that out of control horse. Aggro often comes from fear imho.

One exercise you can do at home is have a horse and rider stand in the middle of the ring and circle them, at a distance. Both directions. Gradually reduce the size of the circle as long as he remains unconcerned. Expand circle if he shows tension. Look where you are going and direct him, trying not to focus on the horse and rider. I saw this done at a Tom Dorrance clinic a thousand years ago and it was very effective. You might do this with regularity.

At my barn we would have group lessons out in the field where we would weave in and out of horses, eventually both directions, at walk and trot. Trainer called them foxhunting drills; they were to prevent runaways and to keep manners and safe spacing installed. A concerned horse was never boxed in thus. The last horse in line would weave, or simply pass the entire line, and remain in front. Then the next last horse would move to the front etc.

I hope this helps.

[SpicyPRE]

Just like people, horses are different and have different triggers. You will never train/beat instinct out of a horse. You can teach boundaries and respect, but instinct will always will win out. I am NOT an advocate of the learned helplessness/shutting down of a horse.

@Equestrianette

So is the solution to never take the horse out and retire him as a 6 year old?

If this horse doesnt fit into your lifestyle and goals then perhaps he needs a different home. Finding a different life does not mean retirement. Sometimes its the kindest thing we can do.

[sascha]

@SpicyPRE

I am NOT an advocate of the learned helplessness/shutting down of a horse.

This is SO overused.

Anytime someone suggests putting actual manners on a horse someone happens along to suggest that putting manners on a horse can only be done by shutting them down. Stop. Please. Horses are not being done any favours by this black or white BS.

The biggest favour anyone can do a horse is to put really good manners on it so it will always stay safe, have company (at least riding), and be the horse everyone wishes they owned.

[luvmyhackney]

A prior trainer had a lovely horse that had to have individual turnout. No issues riding but she was very careful to keep it very black and white on what was acceptable behavior and not acceptable.

She couldn’t drop her guard and honestly it was super stressful.

[Equestrianette]

I love that! Thank you! I find that to be so true about the horse you lead is the horse you ride. When I find them being a little more difficult under saddle, a good groundwork session always positively influences the next ride.

[Equestrianette]

This is amazing. Because I’ve been racking my brain HOW am I going to train this without risking our other horses. I think this will work VERY well for him!!

[Equestrianette]

I feel like I needed “permission” because since he was a young horse (and still is) I opted for trying not to make a big deal of things or start fights. I feel now we’ve grown to a relationship where I’m having the confidence to dare him to try something like that under saddle because I can correct him and he needs to be held by that. He will need to get over fighting back through corrections because that’s dangerous and the only way out is through. I’ve addressed the veterinary issues. Now I just have to start over with the iron fist of consistency. I got some really good exercises from this thread that I think will be really effective. He’s far from a lost cause when it comes to manners.

As for the turn out situation, I feel like I’m neglecting his basic needs if he isn’t turned out in a herd. But he’s happier alone. And you know, I kinda empathize with him because I too, don’t want to be turned out with anyone.

[candyappy]

@Equestrianette

Is this how he will always be? Do they grow out of it? Can this be worked through and overcome?

Some horses just don’t do well with others. I think you have seen his true colors and i would not risk any other horses to try and find out what may ( most likely will not) work.

You can’t be there to control him 24/7 so it is safer to just give him a place all his own where he can see others and share a safe fence line with. That is enough.

Kicking at others while under saddle is something you can certainly control and I would find some good advice on working through that.

[IPEsq]

Turn him out alone. Especially now when it’s still rehab time. But he may never really be one that does great with others.

[foursocks]

My older boy has to be turned out alone. He likes other horses, except when he doesn’t. He likes to play, except when he doesn’t. And even when he is playing it is so aggressive there isn’t much difference between that and just fighting. I’ve had him for ten years and he’s been in a solo paddock, but next to other horses (that he can’t reach), and he’s fine with it. Every injury he has had is due to pasture shenanigans- the last and worst one was sticking his entire hind leg through a metal gate trying to kick the horse he was playing with. This was when we learned he could not share a fenceline.

Anyway, keep your boy separate. Mine likes his solo field. He’s very happy to be the king of his own domain! Luckily he is a perfect gentleman otherwise, but I always make sure we aren’t super-close to other horses under saddle. It’s not worth it!

[FjordBCRF]

@Equestrianette

I opted for trying not to make a big deal of things or start fights.

I would say that is mistake number one. It’s like lack of communication with people. If you don’t speak up, that annoying person at work is always going call you Jackie when you prefer Jacquelyn. Or be it one person of a couple that expects the other side to read their minds and end up with a bunch of pent up aggression because they’re both frustrated because they aren’t actually communicating.

If you don’t start with small corrections immediately, establishing boundaries and respect…that horse is going to have your number. You will have much bigger issues because the horse thinks “it’s”ok. It’s also not good practice to avoid situations where the horse will react…like avoiding the “spooky corner”. It ls so much easier to train a horse from scratch than it is to undo improper training.

You can address issues without making a big deal or stating a fight. I understand the sentiment, but this stuff (to me at least) is all matter of fact. As long as you aren’t letting your emotions get out of control, certain things just need to be handled, and then you move on.

[Djones]

@SpicyPRE

respect, but instinct will always will win out. I am NOT an advocate of the learned helplessness/shutting down of a horse.

Who suggested such a thing? This horse could learn a lot by having boundaries established within which he can be successful. Part of that is don’t make faces at horses walking past you. Crumple your nose or look at them, sure. Pin your ears and snake? No sir.

[SpicyPRE]

@sascha

Anytime someone suggests putting actual manners on a horse someone happens along to suggest that putting manners on a horse can only be done by shutting them down. Stop. Please. Horses are not being done any favours by this black or white BS.

if you are unable to tell the difference, that is a YOU problem

[RMJacobs]

@atr

He was actually late gelded too, six I believe

My Hackney pony tried to pick fights with other geldings, and every mare was girlfriend material. At home, our other gelding was a larger pony who didn’t put up with any crap, and our mare liked the attention. In harness, I never let him get too close to other horses, which was usually easy enough because we just drove around the neighborhood. But a good friend just would not listen one day when I told her to back her mare off NOW while I was backing my pony away. The squealing started and he tried so hard to mount her mare while he was in harness and my friend was riding. I needed the whip to get his attention and keep him backing. But there was no reason for my friend to have her in heat mare right in my pony’s face. Usually we took them out together without a problem because I insisted on a little space.

He would try to pick fights with geldings occasionally in harness, and he got a growled “QUIT!” which usually did the job. The other horse generally just looked at him like “WTF is your problem?” The thing is, these other horses were easily twice his size and I’m sure would have kicked his ass had things been allowed to progress.

He was gelded at age 10, and I believe he was used for breeding when he was young. When I got him, he was 22 and still had lots of stallion behaviors. I was able to eradicate most of it, but occasionally it would come up again, usually when my mare was in heat. What helped a lot is that he had great ground manners and didn’t pull this crap when he was on a lead.

Rebecca

[sascha]

There was ZERO reason to bring that BS into this thread where it was not suggested. It seemed as though you were pointing your finger. At who, I have no idea, but that’s definitely the way it came across. That’s a YOU problem.

[twelvegates]

Just a thought: Update on a horse on Prozac (fluoxetine) - Horse Care - Chronicle Forums (chronofhorse.com)

[RedHorses]

Just a thought for if you consider trying to put all the horses in one group later on. Don’t have any horses in the group that don’t belong to you/your wife.

If that horse in for training gets into a fight with your known aggressive horse, regardless of which horse actually started it, you will be completely liable for anything that happens to the other horse. Whether it’s a scratch or a career ending injury. You know your horse is aggressive towards other horses. Choosing to risk your own horses’ safety is your call, but it’s bad business to put a client’s horse at risk.

[Equestrianette]

Thank you!