The Horse First Podcast and my case

It was suggested to me to listen to the horse first podcast with Dr. Audrey Declue because my horse was diagnosed with bilateral proximal suspensory desmitis secondary to conformation. I listened to the podcast about suspensories and then decided I needed to listen to the rest of them from the beginning to get a more well rounded idea of what she was talking about.

First of all, I’m very confused at the wide range of treatment modalities and how conflicting they are depending on where you’re at in the world. Mainly the idea of turn out versus stall rest. Dr. Glass from Texas A&M specifically said having him be turned out 24/7 is what prevented these injuries from ever healing in the first place. Secondly he had 7 weeks of 24/7 turn out with no riding and he came back absolutely worse than before. This was before his diagnosis because he had a wall resection done and I turned him out.

This podcast is helpful because on one hand it’s giving me hope that he might have a future, but on the other hand I’m having to reconcile with the conflicting information about what’s going to make him better versus what my vet is telling us to do. I’m down for doing the small paddock rest because it’s something different and doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

Dr. Declue remarks on how stall rest is bad for horses mentally and physically because it leads to muscle loss and that will dispose him to even more injury and destabilize his joints. I just don’t know how I’m expected to maintain his muscles when we can only walk 10-15 minutes twice a day. We go back on December 1st for a repeat ultrasound to see if we are on the right track. He got a round of PRP, one shock wave session, and adequan. The vet suggested multiple rounds of shockwave but at $700 a treatment every other week that’s just out of my price range. Is it going to be the same price everywhere? I need to start calling around to other local vets to see about it. I’m using back on track hock boots and quick wraps to promote blood flow.

Dr. Declue talks about body lameness and treating the body not just the limbs. That suspensory issues are secondary to more issues up high. My horse did present as an SI case and I was expecting that to be the issue. His vet said primary SI issues are very bad and we don’t want that but honestly what he has seems just as bad to me! From a biomechanics standpoint I know my horse had back pain because the suspensory connects directly below the SI and acts as a lever system to create pain and tension. Dr. Declue says that after rehab when you go back to ride and the lameness comes back, then you treated the wrong problem. I’m so worried about this. My horse has had chronic pelvis issues and we still don’t know what that is or how many secondary issues we can blame on the suspensory desmitis. His body worker says his right hip has always been pulled forward on that side. This has been present ever since he was started 2 years ago. (Has been prophylactically treated for ulcers and is currently being treated as a precaution for those that know about the right sided problems and ulcers)

I’m hoping that as I continue to go through these podcasts that I’ll get more information because she says once she treats the body the lameness goes away. But she never says what she does to treat the body. She never talks about what conditions of the back or pelvis can cause these issues in the limbs. I’m on her episode about rehabilitation. She discusses lunging with the purpose of rhythm and relaxation which makes sense (we are far away from that yet). She’s made some leading remarks about treating inflammation as the cause of body lameness. Perhaps I’ll get to it in the podcasts but I want to know if any of you know what she’s talking about when she says the treats the “body lameness”. What is the lameness? What is the treatment? If there’s going to be something higher up than the suspensory in my horse it has to be somewhere in his pelvis or lumbosacral area.

(I understand for liability reasons she can’t totally divulge treatment plans. But how it’s coming off sometimes is “I have the secret and it’s for me to know and you not to find out!” Which seems contrary to me since it’s called the horse first. :upside_down_face:)

My personal experience is that if a horse goes into stall rest well muscled, they will come out with a decent amount of muscle. My mare was on 2 minutes of hand walking for months due to founder. I freaked right out because she had come to me with zero muscling and it had taken me years to build her up. She came out the other side absolutely fine with almost zero visible muscle loss. Adding again - this is my personal experience and I’m a freak about keeping diet/protein/supplements/etc. properly balanced at all times and limit calories when necessary by decreasing “empty” calories (fat).

Along with that, I think you’ll find the general consensus on deClue is not exactly clueless, but also not favourable. Your final observation about for her to know and the rest of the equine world to find out is spot on.

In other words - listen to your vet and try not to freak about muscle loss. Sure, there will be some, but the slow, measured rehab process will bring it back.

Annnd, probably should not open this can of worms, but I personally think “body lameness” is load of nonsense for the most part in that I don’t think it’s the cause of acute injury, but the exact opposite - acute injury can cause body lameness. Think of your own ankle being sprained. You have to move in a different way to accommodate that injury. That is what leads to maybe your opposite hip getting sore and maybe your back getting a kink in it.

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While there is a lot of truth in Dr. Clue’s podcast she is also a bit of a quack in the veterinary community so I wouldn’t get too hung up on it. She likes to talk in absolutes and loves a good hyperbole.

Oh also she’s the only vet that has ever understood biomechanics ever. Did you know? - her words not mine.

No personal experience, but she comes across as a grifter more than anything imho. Trust your horse. Work with your current team, and make the best decision with the info you have at hand. Even her own website admits they instituted practices in her clinic BEFORE they have supporting evidence. So take everything she has with a chunky grain of salt.

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If you’ve listened to one episode, you’ve listened to them all. She has a couple of talking points and will beat them until they’re dead. “Body lameness” means nothing. Extensive research does not come from one veterinarian’s anecdotal evidence. She also says “expecially,” which in my case is enough to stop listening.

Have you looked at other cases regarding what the prescription was for rehab? Were they on stall rest/small turnout or turned out for a while and then brought back in? What’s the overall prognosis in many of the cases? Permanent retirement? Low level flat work?

Seriously, listen to your vet with eyes on the horse. You should be able to bring up your concerns to the veterinarian. With a case like this, your vet and farrier should be in communication as well. Body imbalances and asymmetries can be improved with good training with a focus on straightness and strength, though it’s unlikely you’ll ever fix them entirely.

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A good life survival skill.

When you come up on someone with an “outlier” approach to a medical or nutritional issue, whether animal or human, and it contradicts everything you have been told up until now, tread with skepticism. I can’t speak to the treatment protocol but you are clearly a concerned horse owner looking for solutions for a beloved horse. That urgency and anxiety makes you super vulnerable to going down rabbit holes and buying snake oil.

Also the person pontificating online has never seen your horse.

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This! Take a deep breath and a good chat with your vet, itll all be ok.

I think if she actually had a treatment that worked better than a placebo she would be willing to say what it is. This was the same tactic Bernie Madoff used to steal billions of dollars too. If its too good to be true, it probably is.

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I’ve tried to listen to a couple of her podcasts and I give up every time. There was bashing of another vet and a lot of she is the only one but never discussed her treatments or details of theories. I much prefer Straight From the Horse Doctor’s Mouth for information put forth in a straightforward way and includes stuff I can look up for more info. If you haven’t looked that podcast, I would give it a listen. I’m pretty sure she made a couple episodes on suspensory injuries, etc. And their YouTube channel is also great for rehab exercises and owner information.

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That’s exactly what I’m looking for thank you!

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I have listened to a few of her podcasts while brushing my horse. Wow, what an ego. If she would just stop talking about herself and then repeating everything ad nausum it would make for better listening. I notice that she never quite gets down to how she treats a horse with an issue. She never states, I had a horse with kissing spine and these are the diagnostic steps I took, and this is what I did to treat the horse.

Has anyone on this board had her treat their horse? Especially for shivers. I agree with crthunder, love Straight From The Horse Doctor’s Mouth.

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Compensation is real.

Absolutely! Just not quite the way deClue portrays it.

I do think axial skeletal issues are something we need to pay attention to. But that’s about as far as I go with “body lameness”. It’s just so complicated.

For a soft tissue problem like you have where the horse has less than ideal conformation for this particular issue as well as concomitant pain complications (SI / back), just like with people, patient compliance, lifestyle, and resources are all so important in figuring out a plan and achieving success. Shockwave is typically used and it is always expensive. Controlled exercise is ideal for the right type of collagen production in the healed ligament, and some horses can achieve this in a field with the right terrain and weather conditions and personality and friends. Others cannot, and you have to focus more on hand or tack walks, aquatread, etc. Some horses handle stall rest just fine (perhaps with some chemical help). Others do more harm than good when you lock them up.

Not everyone has the money, the property, and an angel unicorn horse to implement a gold standard of healing and rehab. You can do a lot with nutrition and stretches and mobilization exercises during the rest phase. And you have to recondition the whole body slowly anyway to not compromise healing, so unless the horse has kissing spine or something that can go really sideways from lack of work, you have to take some general setbacks along with the goal of moving forward on the injury. This might mean you will wind up treating the SI at some point anyway to help with proper movement patterns as you rebuild strength. That’s not a horrible thing except more strain on the wallet. If the alternative is that the suspensories keep getting worse with less conservative management, then you have no horse at all. Right?

Each case is very individual, just like with training. There are some good general principles, but often not clear “right” and “wrong” things to do within those general parameters that you could apply to every single horse.

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I actually really like this part of overall approach, it’s just the delivery I find laughable.

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I’m not one to speak as any kind of authority but my thought process has mostly been that hoof issues cause body issues more than body issues cause hoof issues.

Trying to find the root of the problem when the root of the problem causes multiple symptoms, trying to deal with the root problem while disposing your horse to even more issues through the rehabilitation process is certainly not for the faint of heart.

Compensation is absolutely real and it’s also a form of communication. My horse was barefoot and most of his compensation has happened in the hind end when he postures to relieve tension. He crushed his heels. He overloads the lateral aspect of the hind hoof which crushes even more and then flares medially. Now that I know what’s wrong with my horse I can see clear as day how he was compensating to take pressure off of the suspensory to the best of his ability.

So many people criticized my farrier (who is my wife - also not for the faint of heart) because yeah his feet looked awful. But she kept them balanced for him while we investigated this thoroughly. Despite me pestering her about why she wouldn’t trim him to have an ideal hoof or to put shoes on him, she said nope - we have to do what’s right for him and horses don’t read text books. Myself being a human practitioner I know the body compensates until it can’t anymore and I’m glad we caught this before he continued to break down even more. Anyone that looked at my horses feet would think he had negative plantar angles, and he never did. But I’m almost certain that’s where it would have ended up if this continued. He finally got his suspensory shoes put on yesterday and he’s walking and loading more straight instead of rolling on the lateral aspect of the hoof.

Looking back, had we removed the compensatory factors without having a plan in place to support the weakness he would have declined even more. If we had just thrown any kind of shoes on him it might have delayed the diagnosis until he completely blew a suspensory or had an acute injury.

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I’ve watched her “treat” a horse in real life. Just being around her is, bizarre to say the least. I’ve never been around someone with such a God complex. She can fix ANY horse. Her “treatment” is injecting straight Sarapin into the nerve roots along the spine. When they were “observing” the horse I looked at her set up, and it was just bottles and bottles of Sarapin. You then have to get an appropriate body work expert to work on the horse after she “treats”, and someone to do shockwave along the spine. Then you have another one of her treatments, and you continue, and continue, and continue until your horse is “fixed”, which is never. This person is still spending thousands and thousands of dollars on Audrey’s treatment plan, and she’s about a year in with no progress. She also will have you treat for EPM with no EPM titer done. She’s a snake oil vet at best. I could go on and on about her. :roll_eyes:

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OP, listen to your vet. I had a horse with a similar diagnosis, which my vet said was ultimately caused by conformation (very straight behind). Walking under tack is how you are going to keep your horse muscled. When rehabbing we have always used the Equiband system. That combined with an actual engaging walk, is very important. My vet usually has suspensory horses walk under tack for months at a time, because he is team “keep moving”, but in a controlled manner. So if they can go out and be calm for 30 mins, and then get ridden for 30 mins at the walk then great, if they can’t go out and stay calm then they get ridden 2x at the walk for 30 mins, and so on. Trust your vet, who has worked on your horse, and looked at your horse. Follow their rehab, and trust the process. I remember when my first horse got a medial lower suspensory tear behind. It took over a year but he was able to return to 3’3” and show without issue. Time and patience is key

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This is exactly what I observed from her baby vet protege - Denali Equine. I’m honestly shocked neither one has been sued. Never met two more self absorbed people, and lucky for us they are hosting a conference in Ocala soon.

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