The horse of unknown training

[SharonA1]

I keep being tempted by ads for sweet, wonderful mid-teens horses (all advertised as beginner-friendly and ridden English) touted as being wonderful in the ring and on trails, WTC, sane and safe, etc. These particular horses are, I admit, inexpensive.

None of them seems to know how to relax going around the ring, and none of them seem to know how to put their heads down. Nor do they know how to canter unless they’re run into it. They do seem to think that they’re supposed to stop on a dime at the lightest cue (no gentle downward transitions here).

Just out of curiosity (I will not buy a horse inappropriate for my level and resources. I will not buy a horse inappropriate for my level and resources. I will not buy a horse inappropriate for my level and resources. At least, I know I shouldn’t), IF you had a good trainer, how hard is it to take one of these and turn it into a solid English pleasure horse, able to stay on the bit and have quiet transitions and be smooth and steady around an arena?

I know we all know this, but, it’s just hard to see these sweet middle-aged horses, who seem to want to try their hardest for you and do not have a mean bone in their bodies, but have no idea what to do.

Sigh. If I had a billion dollars…

[endlessclimb]

In my experience, it’s not that hard. A steady kind hand, and patience (it takes a long time to build the “balance and lift” muscles!) is all it takes. They seem so much happier in the end.

[hoopoe]

If you have the skill set to evaluate a horse with no real training beyond tolerating the rider then how long it take depends entirely on your skill set and the horses willingness to be trained after so long a time It is possible, but it is also possible to wait and look for something that has ,at least, basic correct training. There is no time line for retraining such a horse just as there is no time line for finding a little hidden gem ( witness some of the rags to riches current on this forum)

The way of going, from what you describe here, can also be signs of discomfort

[Scribbler]

If the horse is going that way from lack of training, I know trainers who could get the horse lifting and carrying himself within a year. it depends on your tool kit for gymnastics. But absolutely it can also be a sign of physical discomfort and then you are down a diagnostic rabbit hole. But of course moving badly can make a horse sore, and moving correctly can fix that too.

[2bayboys]

One thing to remember when evaluating sales videos online:

The rider may not have the ability to display the horse’s real skill set. The head up, tense way of going, scrambling or abrupt transitions may be created by the pilot.

AND

The rider may have the skills to make a horse with practically NO training appear to know the basics of walk trot canter and whoa. And even jump.

This is why it’s so important to have a trusted professional helping you. Good luck!

[ridernc]

@SharonA1

None of them seems to know how to relax going around the ring, and none of them seem to know how to put their heads down. Nor do they know how to canter unless they’re run into it. They do seem to think that they’re supposed to stop on a dime at the lightest cue (no gentle downward transitions here).

This was my horse, though it was due to poor training vs. lack of training. It has taken an intensive year and a half with dressage trainers to teach her how she should be thinking about using herself, and she is incredibly sharp and trainable. We still have a long way to go, and I do admit that there are times I wish I had a horse with a better foundation/less baggage, but most days she is the safest, sanest horse there is. If you’re willing to put in the time and have patience, these horses can absolutely be amazing, fulfilling partners.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

Some are harder than others. Does the horse take both leads and go evenly in both directions? Is the musculature even on both sides of the horse’s body?

You say that the horse goes above the bit with a hollow back. Is the horse ewe necked? (Does it have a big muscle on the bottom side of the neck and no muscle on top?)

You can learn a lot from a horse’s conformation. You won’t know the cause though -whether incorrect riding or physical injury or poorly fitted tack caused the problem or whether bad conformation made the horse travel the way that he does.

[SummerRose]

It depends on the horse and on the abilities of the trainer.

Generally, “fixing” horses even older horses that have been ridden incorrectly isn’t hard, assuming the trainer is reasonably skilled. @Eclectic_Horseman’s point about musculature is a very good one, but even those horses can generally be retrained, though the time it takes to build the correct muscling can take a while.

Whether or not the horses you describe can be turned into quiet packers is a different question. Some horses who are rushy and hot are just that way because of their temperament. Other horses that are rushy and seem hot may be so because of discomfort or lack of balance, which can be fixed as long as there is no underlying medical problem.

So IME yes, most older poorly-trained horses can be retrained by a reasonably skilled trainer without too much difficulty, though it may months to years. But temperament and medical issues may be a limiting factor re: turning them into solid lower-level or packer types.

[eightpondfarm]

I’ve been down this road many times. Here, right now, i have 10 horses from a rescue org. Two are absolutely non-rideable the others have all become retrained…though for reasons of their physical disabilities, I could hop on and trail ride eight of them if i wanted to, but i’ve decided that most of them are better off mowing the pastures for me. They’re happy (and i’m happy they are!) So, of the 10, only two are really GOOD candidates for dressage. And honestly, both of those were young when i started them. Wiithout trainer baggage and without body degradation from poor riding.

6 of the non-dressage rescues are decent mounts. Safe and reasonable equines, good on the ground and safe under saddle. Their problems ar low back, base-narrow, string-halt… physical disabilities observable upon adoption which render them pasture ornaments in my world.

[NoSuchPerson]

If the horse has a good mind, calm temperament, is sound, and is in good health, then it’s pretty easy to take one of these “green through no fault of its own” horses and turn them into solid citizens.

However, in my experience, many of those middle-aged but still green horses are that way for a reason. They aren’t quite sound or they have some underlying health problem. Maybe they’re difficult to manage or have had some previous bad experience that has left a not-immediately-obvious trigger for explosive behavior. Some of these issues can be overcome with time and good training. Some may never be suitable for beginners or never be reliable trail horses or never be fit for whatever purpose you have in mind.

I would never purchase one of these horses unless I was working with a good trainer who could knowledgeably asses the horse’s potential and suitability to be the kind of mount I needed. And even then, it is a gamble because sometimes you don’t find those fatal flaws until after you’ve bought the horse and started training it.

[Texarkana]

The older I get, the more I realize how much of riding is purely biomechanics. Biomechanics of the horse, biomechanics of the rider on the horse.

A lot of these horses are the way they are because of how they have been ridden, how they are built, and how their bodies have developed with how they are ridden.

If they are good eggs who haven’t developed vices from how they were produced, then you can usually sort out everything else to have an enjoyable riding horse. Not an Olympic competitor, but a perfectly fine pleasure mount to embark on low level endeavors.

It’s a matter of how much risk you can take on, though. Sometimes there are underlying soundness problems that aren’t apparent when someone is getting on once a month and yahooing around the field as they please. Also, current boarding barn husbandry is not very compatible with soundness. So if the horse was living on the back 40 going for the occasional ride then you shift them to a stall with limited turnout and several days a week of arena work, you will probably see soundness problems develop that have nothing to do with whether or not the horse was unsound to begin with.

[SharonA1]

You are all very reasonable, smart, experienced people, damn it.

The horses that are tugging at my soft heart (by which I mean my wallet) are Arabs, my favorites. Neither had obvious conformation issues and at least one of them moved like music (the other one looked sound, just terribly confused). And they have such pretty heads…

Here is the response from my trainer, who has known me for more than a decade:

"No rescuing Arabs! Hold out!"

What do you guys think she really means? Is there any way I could interpret those five words with any ambiguity?

[Texarkana]

@SharonA1

"No rescuing Arabs! Hold out!"

What do you guys think she really means? Is there any way I could interpret those five words with any ambiguity?

I think you have yourself an Arab hater in your life.

When I see an Arab like you described in your OP, I would have zero hesitation about taking it on if the horse spoke to me. Arabs are just so much harder to physically breakdown than other breeds. Maybe it’s because they are smart and nimble enough to figure out how to compensate. They can be quirky, they can develop their fair share of bad behaviors, their conformation may be so that you never get that head down. But, they also tend to remain useable despite all that. At least that’s my experience growing up breeding and showing Arabians.

[Scribbler]

@SharonA1

You are all very reasonable, smart, experienced people, damn it.

The horses that are tugging at my soft heart (by which I mean my wallet) are Arabs, my favorites. Neither had obvious conformation issues and at least one of them moved like music (the other one looked sound, just terribly confused). And they have such pretty heads…

Here is the response from my trainer, who has known me for more than a decade:

"No rescuing Arabs! Hold out!"

What do you guys think she really means? Is there any way I could interpret those five words with any ambiguity?

I would add that it’s worth watching horses at liberty or free longeing to see how they really move w t c. Now you need to look at this through breed filters. These days I do ground work with an Iberian horse and ride my very sound Paint. On the very few times I longe Paint I am horrified and think she is crippled because she has such a sucked back little trot on the longe compared to the Iberian.

Arabians running free will throw up their heads ( and their tails) but if they are your breed of choice you will be able to see how they move, especially behind is crucial because that reflects back, SI, stifles, hocks. I’d steer clear of a horse that is bunny hopping at the canter.

Lightly worked older horses can be very sound because no one has pounded them into the ground in their prime. But they could also have been put on the back burner because of chronic injuries. Somehow I feel like that’s less likely with an Arab, and more likely with an OTTB or WB which are often worked in ways that lead to injury.

[Clemfandango]

Soooo this is my mare. Loooong story but I bought her from my previous coach knowing she only had a couple of months of lead line lessons and the occasional up down lesson with some beginners. Before that she was sitting in some backyard with an owner who didn’t know very much about horses ( the owner did not know how tack her up for a test ride lol).

Now, in hindsight I shouldn’t have bought this mare while with that coach. Sure the mare was quiet and kind (mostly) but struggled with soundness issues. The coach at the time didn’t really know how to bring along green horses, had no experience with soundness issues ( did not believe in flexion testing, or proper vet care) and I had only been riding for 6 years.

I ended up leaving the coach ( another long story lol) and with some incredible dumb luck am now with a much more experienced one (she’s an EC level 3 eventing judge, EC dressage b judge and has been teaching for 40+ years!). We spent the first 6 months getting her the vet care she needed and sound ( turns out she had arthritis in both hocks. I had no clue, didn’t do a PPE because I trusted my old coach). After she was sound and comfortable we started spending the next 6 months just working on suppleness, rhythm and just now she’s just starting to relax under saddle.

This is all due to me of course. She would be much further along if she had the right training, riding and vet care from the start.

So looking back, I don’t regret buying her as I do love her…. And she actually does have a good mind. I got lucky…but I would not do it again unless I was absolutely sure I had the right support system/coach/vet.

I’ve learned a heck of a lot though!

Edit: All this to say I took a gamble with an older green horse and it’s worked out given my lack experience but only because I have the right trainer/coach and a sweet quieter horse.

[candyappy]

@Texarkana

The older I get, the more I realize how much of riding is purely biomechanics. Biomechanics of the horse, biomechanics of the rider on the horse.

A lot of these horses are the way they are because of how they have been ridden, how they are built, and how their bodies have developed with how they are ridden.

If they are good eggs who haven’t developed vices from how they were produced, then you can usually sort out everything else to have an enjoyable riding horse. Not an Olympic competitor, but a perfectly fine pleasure mount to embark on low level endeavors.

This strikes a cord in me because I have a 4+ ( not sure when he turns 5) year old gelding that I have been backing for 2 years now. He is still green --not because of anything he has done but because life has thrown obstacles in our path that has kept us at a slow, slow pace in progression of his training.

Saddle fit issues, several health related issues for me etc… Just kept meaning we took breaks here and there. He is such a good minded guy we just pick up where we left off.

When I was young this would have been unacceptable but I just turned 60 and who really cares how long it takes??

All that to say if the horse has a willing temperament and the training is behind due to no vices but maybe human issues I would consider them.

The one thing is my horse is out 24/7 and that means he kind of keeps himself in some sort of shape and I keep him at a good weight as well. I think that helps in keeping them going so you aren’t battling overweight issues…