The horse that does not lie down to sleep/stay apparatus failure

[event101]

I just finished listening to 3 podcast episodes on The Horse First with Dr. Audrey DeClue on performance horses that collapse when falling asleep standing up (stay apparatus failure). Worth a listen, if you have a horse that does not lay down to sleep. https://open.spotify.com/episode/7vSDkQwTz40QUVCT7CNjFs?si=DEfJbxdXRTexq-M0BzYqrA

She talks about how the nuchal ligament and the superspinus ligament affect the stay apparatus in the front limbs. And if there is pain in the neck, back, or pelvis, it can cause horses to have failure of stay apparatus. She said by treating back and pelvis pain, she has been able to help horses, and they are able to keep the stay apparatus locked because there is no more tension along their back.

So my question, has anyone here been able to help their horse that collapses from sleep deprivation, by treating back and/or pelvic pain? Did you inject, do shockwave, or something else? I should note, this is talking about horses that are more or less “sound,” and in work. This is not about horses that don’t want to lay down because of herd or environmental reasons. The horses she’s talking about will lay down to roll, but are not comfortable enough to sleep.

I have been trying to figure this out with my guy for awhile. I have some new ideas to discuss with my vet, but curious if you all have been through this. And especially if you found something that worked!

[Scribbler]

Horses need some REM sleep and can only get it lying down so your horse would have some major symptoms if he never lay down at all.

[Janet]

Chickens LAY eggs.
Horses LIE down.

[event101]

Ok, well mine does not LIE down.

[Scribbler]

@Janet

Chickens LAY eggs.
Horses LIE down.

Lay laid lain are all possible forms of lie in various conditional forms.

Your horse would have symptoms if he never lay down at all. Maybe that should be "if he never laid down at all " where we maybe don’t hear the d, it’s blended

But it’s certainly not “if he never lie down at all” or “if he never lied down at all.” You could say “if he never lies down at all” but that’s not quite the same meaning, it’s a different tense

[Texarkana]

Grammar aside, I had an older mare who began lying down again for a few weeks after PEMF.

[awaywego]

Struggling with this with my teenaged gelding as well. He’s sound and competitive to show; gets pentosan, equioxx and weekly PEMF made no difference in him lying down. We have tried trazadone: he slept (standing) all day. I have a pic of him lying down in the pasture in 2015 so I know he once did lie down! We recently discovered stifle and knee arthritis and will be injecting both so I’m hoping that helps. He also has kissing spines, and I guess I would say it’s unclear at best how much pain this causes, but definitely could be a contributing factor as well. Oh and he gets Osphos yearly for pedal osteitis. I’m really doing the best I can to keep him comfortable!

One of my questions: even if we can eliminate the pain that is causing them to not want to lie down, do they know that it will no longer hurt/be uncomfortable? Like if a horse learns that every time it jumps, the rider catches him in the mouth, he may learn that it’s better to stop. It can take a long time to unlearn that behavior. My only guess is that when they go down to roll they notice a difference?

[JB]

I haven’t listened, but:

Does the stay apparatus not just allow a horse to just snooze standing up?

If he’s not lying down to get REM sleep, then true sleep deprivation, can cause they to fall asleep not just snoozing, while standing up, and the stay apparatus isn’t designed for that.

Is that what she is really talking about?

The stay apparatus is just literally the patellar ligament hooking over the patellar hook. It unhooks by activating various quadriceps-area muscles, especially the tensor fascia (sp)

I’ve never heard of that mechanical function failing because of sore muscles, I HAVE heard of the mechanical function inappropriately activating when things are sore or unbalanced - upward fixation of the patella/UFP/locking stifle.

[Libby2563]

@Scribbler

Horses need some REM sleep and can only get it lying down so your horse would have some major symptoms if he never lay down at all.

I know that’s what the science says, but it hasn’t been my experience. Almost none of the horses I’ve kept at home over the last 9 years lie down in a stall. They do like to nap in the field, but while on stall rest on various occasions they’ve gone up to 2 months with no recumbent sleep and no apparent ill effects. It stresses me out knowing they’re not lying down, but with one exception hasn’t seemed to bother them.

I also leased a 18-hh horse who wouldn’t lie down in a stall, presumably because he felt too cramped. His owner was shocked when I sent a pic of him napping in the field with my other horses, because she’d owned him for 13 years and had never seen him sleep before. At her place and when I took him to Florida for a month, he was only turned out alone and only for a few hours, so he didn’t lie down at all. He was the same horse at my house, where he did sleep, as he was in Florida and as he had been for his entire previous life.

[Rackonteur]

@Scribbler

Lay laid lain are all possible forms of lie in various conditional forms.

Lie - intransitive
Lie - In the present tense, horses lie down.
Lay - in the past tense, horses lay down.
Lain - in the past perfect tense, horses have lain down.

Lay - transitive
Lay in the present tense, chickens lay eggs.
Laid - in the past tense, chicken laid eggs.
Laid - in the past perfect tense, chickens have laid eggs.

“Now I lay me down to sleep”.
Now I lie down to sleep.
“I laid myself down; it was so nice, and I started to dream.”

[Jealoushe]

Masterson method helped my horse with sleep deprivation immensely.

[event101]

You’re horse sounds a lot like mine! I have injected hocks and stifles, done equioxx, and body work, without making a difference in laying down. My horse also has kissing spines. I’ve had his back injected & shockwaved, with the last time being ~9-10 months before I first noticed the collapsing. The back hasn’t seemed to be as much of an issue lately, but now I’m really curious if that would help the not laying down.

As far as them unlearning that laying down is painful, I’m not sure. There is zero evidence that my horse ever lies down to sleep any more, but he will roll in the arena or the paddock and then lie flat out for a minute like he’s so exhausted, and I think oh, maybe he’s going to nap…and he’ll pop up right away. If something helps, I’m hoping he’ll realize it doesn’t hurt and just nap there!

[Scribbler]

@event101

You’re horse sounds a lot like mine! I have injected hocks and stifles, done equioxx, and body work, without making a difference in laying down. My horse also has kissing spines. I’ve had his back injected & shockwaved, with the last time being ~9-10 months before I first noticed the collapsing. The back hasn’t seemed to be as much of an issue lately, but now I’m really curious if that would help the not laying down.

As far as them unlearning that laying down is painful, I’m not sure. There is zero evidence that my horse ever lies down to sleep any more, but he will roll in the arena or the paddock and then lie flat out for a minute like he’s so exhausted, and I think oh, maybe he’s going to nap…and he’ll pop up right away. If something helps, I’m hoping he’ll realize it doesn’t hurt and just nap there!

If he’s rolling, he is able to lie down and get up.

[event101]

Kind of. There was a lot of technical explanation of anatomy, but what I got out of it was the nuchal ligament connects to other structures behind the scapula and then to the stay apparatus in the knee. When a normal horse is dozing, the neck stays basically level with the withers. When a horse that collapses dozes, thier neck drops lower and lower toward the ground. When it gets too low, the stay apparatus unlocks and they buckle/collapse.

[event101]

Correct. He can roll, but isn’t comfortable enough to sleep. Initially I thought because he could get up and down to roll, it must be an environmental cause- not enough bedding, different stall, neighbors, etc. It wasn’t that.

That’s why these podcasts were interesting, she says some of these performance horses that are sleep deprived will roll, but not lie down and sleep due to pain.

[Scribbler]

@event101

Correct. He can roll, but isn’t comfortable enough to sleep. Initially I thought because he could get up and down to roll, it must be an environmental cause- not enough bedding, different stall, neighbors, etc. It wasn’t that.

That’s why these podcasts were interesting, she says some of these performance horses that are sleep deprived will roll, but not lie down and sleep due to pain.

I don’t really buy that. It doesn’t make sense from my observations of horse behavior.

[hybriseris]

@JB

Is that what she is really talking about?

The stay apparatus is just literally the patellar ligament hooking over the patellar hook. It unhooks by activating various quadriceps-area muscles, especially the tensor fascia (sp)

I’ve never heard of that mechanical function failing because of sore muscles, I HAVE heard of the mechanical function inappropriately activating when things are sore or unbalanced - upward fixation of the patella/UFP/locking stifle.

I listened to the episode because of some personal interest with my lease mare.

In it she is speaking specifically front limb stay apparatu, which she believes in sport/performance horses is in some way damaged. As an example she gives horses with cervical arthritis and impingement on their nuchal ligament causing them pain, therefore damage and reluctance to lay down. Other reasons in her line of thinking have to do with other areas of back/neck/shoulder pain not due to arthritis, specifically talking about sport animals.

I have to say, I’m not sure how to feel after listening to the episode and a few others. She doesn’t seem to think much of her fellow veterinarians or established research.

[Scribbler]

@hybriseris

@JB

Is that what she is really talking about?

The stay apparatus is just literally the patellar ligament hooking over the patellar hook. It unhooks by activating various quadriceps-area muscles, especially the tensor fascia (sp)

I’ve never heard of that mechanical function failing because of sore muscles, I HAVE heard of the mechanical function inappropriately activating when things are sore or unbalanced - upward fixation of the patella/UFP/locking stifle.

I listened to the episode because of some personal interest with my lease mare.

In it she is speaking specifically front limb stay apparatu, which she believes in sport/performance horses is in some way damaged. As an example she gives horses with cervical arthritis and impingement on their nuchal ligament causing them pain, therefore damage and reluctance to lay down. Other reasons in her line of thinking have to do with other areas of back/neck/shoulder pain not due to arthritis, specifically talking about sport animals.

I have to say, I’m not sure how to feel after listening to the episode and a few others. She doesn’t seem to think much of her fellow veterinarians or established research.

So I think a horse in this much pain in front is not likely to be active as a sport horse.

I’ve known 2 older horses in my barn have this issue. One was hocks got them injected fine. One was an old horse who wouldn’t sleep inside and hated that his runout was changed to sand. Back to hogfuel and the narcolepsy stopped.

If the horse can lie down to roll they can lie down to sleep if they trust their environment.

Now cervical arthritis and nuchal ligaments and malformation of C5 C6 are all emerging topics in horse health, attracting both real research and pseudo science. This is true of any new concept where cause and/or effect can be blurred or exaggerated. In general, don’t trust podcasts over research.

[hybriseris]

@Scribbler

In general, don’t trust podcasts over research.

I’m not, just answering JB’s question.

In general, most of her references are from the early 1900s in terms of literature. She also makes reference to a disorder she’s coined herself (Dorsal Scapular Movement Disorder). I can see where she’s going with the nuchal ligament, I think it’s interesting. But like I said, the delivery where all other vets are doing it wrong, the mix of science and pure speculation etc… just rubbed me the wrong way.

[Scribbler]

@hybriseris

@Scribbler

In general, don’t trust podcasts over research.

I’m not, just answering JB’s question.

In general, most of her references are from the early 1900s in terms of literature. She also makes reference to a disorder she’s coined herself (Dorsal Scapular Movement Disorder). I can see where she’s going with the nuchal ligament, I think it’s interesting. But like I said, the delivery where all other vets are doing it wrong, the mix of science and pure speculation etc… just rubbed me the wrong way.

Early 1900s like 1910, 1920? Before x-rays or imaging or antibiotics or good slow motion film? Or genetic testing?

Right through the 1970s I had vet or first aid books that were really a compendium of the best guesses of grooms from the Great Age of horses. Some things turned out to confirmed and others were significantly off base in cause and effect.

Going back there for research is silly.