The I'm rehabbing my TB with kissing spine thread

[CindyCRNA]

H![]( all. I am rehabbing my 15 year old TB with T-14 T-15 kissing spine as it was very painful. It was most likely due to poor saddle fit which I feel guilty about so there is going to be saddle fitting updates in this thread also.

3 weeks ago, x-rays confirmed the diagnosis after I noticed he was stumbling more, not wanting to bend to the left or pick up a left lead canter. I had a chiro come out to help diagnosis if he was having pain and he almost dropped to the ground when they palpated that spot. So vet came out and here we are.

Treatment: steroid injections at the site the day of diagnosis, a series of 3 shock wave treatments and back strengthening exercises. She suggested a Pessoa system.

I contacted my dressage trainer and she came out with hers and we put him in it. He has been lunged but not in this system. There were naysayers at the barn saying they have seen horses explode in it and they proceeded to pull up a chair and watch his first session. He dropped his head and went beautifully in it, better than what I have ever seen in a regular system. He gets 5 min each way twice a week working our way up and 10 min of riding at a walk.

We are trialing a wide Prestige Passion which MAY fit. They will still need to add shoulder relief and wool panels but he is curvy and this may work.

High withers, large shoulder, short back equals difficult to fit! [IMG]http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx78/CindyCRNA/Vic%20232_zps25ty014b.jpg)

[bettyk]

I believe what the “naysayer” actually said was that a pessoa in the hands of an uneducated person can cause damage and believes that it is not a gadget to be used in a cavalier way.

[IPEsq]

Some horses can freak out the first time they feel the ropes behind their butt. Others don’t.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

FWIW you don’t need to spend the money on the pessoa if you have a surcingle, side reins and a polo wrap or track bandage (this runs where the breeching strap goes). I don’t care for how the line to the breeching strap runs to the bit on the pessoa or similar rigs. JMHO

[JB]

[QUOTE=C![](ndyCRNA;8386357]
We are trialing a wide Prestige Passion which MAY fit. They will still need to add shoulder relief and wool panels but he is curvy and this may work.

High withers, large shoulder, short back equals difficult to fit! [IMG]http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx78/CindyCRNA/Vic%20232_zps25ty014b.jpg)[/QUOTE]

he’s definitely a recipe for a Prestige. Also, Amerigo/Vega if you need something a little curvier.

[CindyCRNA]

[QUOTE=bettyk;8386745]
I believe what the “naysayer” actually said was that a pessoa in the hands of an uneducated person can cause damage and believes that it is not a gadget to be used in a cavalier way.[/QUOTE]

I do not take it lightly for sure. And you were not the naysayer, lol!

[BlackPony]

What? No one thinks this horse can be cured by an E-Se-Mag supplement that’s already been tried and failed? Lol

Sorry… I’m shocked at the different reactions on this thread vs another. You must have a board approved vet

I know 4 horses, including my own, that have/had KS. All of us owners paid a fortune for “just one more (insert everything under the sun) before trying surgery”, and honestly? Every single one of us wishes we had done it sooner. Two fully recovered, one was put down because he never got better, and mine is almost 5 weeks post op and yet to be determined. It’s like $1500-2500 for the surgery depending on where you are, and I promise you will spend exponentially more playing around with other options that leave the actual problem there to fester and bother the horse more. Once it shows up in a horse working at his usual level, it seems to be beyond some shockwave and careful reconditioning. I know that’s not very positive, but I’m watching another boarder go through diagnosing this now and it’s really looking like my experience is going to be 5 for 5… It shows up, doesn’t get better, and all seems to go downhill after the “rest them then start with so little work that their muscles waste away even more” suggestions. I’m not saying don’t take it easy on an ouchy horse, I’m just saying that that has consistently started an even worse downward spiral.

It’s likely that he’s had touching vertebrae for quite a while, and maybe saddle fit, limited turnout, exercise reduction, or whatever exacerbated it. But it definitely doesn’t seem to be something that is going to be showing signs and be fixed by a new saddle. I don’t say that to scare you, just trying to save you the time and money I and others threw away making our horses miserable with constant poking and prodding and injecting. I really don’t think it has to be that way.

Did your boy race? Mine is the only one I know of that didn’t, but she is a TB and she does have at least one known family member with the same problem. It seems to be most prevalent in TBs, but with the amount of work they do as young horses makes it hard to tell if it’s genetic conformation or work induced trauma of some sort.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck!

[findeight]

Has saddle fit been clinically implicated in causing KS? Always thought it was conformational or a slight possibility of injury related and once the vertebrae touch, that ain’t going to spread back out without surgery.

[CindyCRNA]

[QUOTE=findeight;8387086]
Has saddle fit been clinically implicated in causing KS? Always thought it was conformational or a slight possibility of injury related and once the vertebrae touch, that ain’t going to spread back out without surgery.[/QUOTE]

His previous saddle bridged and pinched his shoulders. The thought was he was guarding. That and a conformational predisposition and there you have it…maybe.

BlackPony, I agree. I almost looked into that first but was reading a lot of negatives online. It didn’t help every horse but it did help quite a few. I understand the theory behind the rehab. Make his back not hurt ( shock wave, saddle fit), strengthen his back it so it doesn’t sag. It’s still iffy but if money were no object (isn’t it always!), it would make sense to try conservative therapy. Cutting the ligaments makes me nervous. It makes me think you could cause issues with the vertebrae that are on each side of the affected vertebrae.

[CindyCRNA]

And no, he never raced. He wasn’t broke until 7.

[AlterWalter]

Never heard of kissing spine being caused by an ill-fitting saddle, but I’m sure it can make it worse. When my 6yo OTTB was diagnosed by x-ray, first thing I did was get a good saddle fitter and get him the best fitting saddle I could lay my hands on. Then did teeth, consulted with farrier, and treated ulcers.

Then, because like you I was hesitant to jump to surgery, I did a long self, -designed rehab. Lots of lunging with a chambon, then side reins (2 months, every day). Then slowly introduced riding (over 6 months) lots of ground poles, cavaletti, hill work etc. H3ll, I think I lunged longer than is required for post surgery rehab.

The emphasis was on daily work, and making sure that he was carrying himself properly (no slopping around on the lunge, head in the air, etc). And lots of backing in hand each day (if nothing else, this horse backs up like no one’s business. You can just think about backing up and he just rounds up and floats back like a dream).

We are about a year down the road. I ride 5 days, lunge 1 day. If I can’t ride, I make sure someone lunges him so he’s working 6 days a week. We jump around over low stuff - logs, x-rails.

So he’s big and buff and fighting fit. He’s my muscled-up beast of an OTTB! Working well under saddle, no more head tilt, no more balking. Swings along like a happy guy. That said, from what I read about this problem we could face problems in the future.

Also I’m not sure how much of his issues were caused by kissing spines, or by ulcers, and being underweight and undermuscled, and having tooth problems (he came to me looking pretty pathetic - lots of stuff to fix up).

But the imaging did show several overlapping processes and the vet gave him a diagnosis (damnit, because now I can’t get him insured for the surgery if I need it). So I consider him a kissing spine success story for now.

There’s a poster on here (I think called Comedic Eventer) who has a horse with kissing spines - no surgery, still competing I think. You might search for her posts about kissing spine.

[CindyCRNA]

[QUOTE=AlterWalter;8387193]
Never heard of kissing spine being caused by an ill-fitting saddle, but I’m sure it can make it worse. When my 6yo OTTB was diagnosed by x-ray, first thing I did was get a good saddle fitter and get him the best fitting saddle I could lay my hands on. Then did teeth, consulted with farrier, and treated ulcers.

Then, because like you I was hesitant to jump to surgery, I did a long self, -designed rehab. Lots of lunging with a chambon, then side reins (2 months, every day). Then slowly introduced riding (over 6 months) lots of ground poles, cavaletti, hill work etc. H3ll, I think I lunged longer than is required for post surgery rehab.

The emphasis was on daily work, and making sure that he was carrying himself properly (no slopping around on the lunge, head in the air, etc). And lots of backing in hand each day (if nothing else, this horse backs up like no one’s business. You can just think about backing up and he just rounds up and floats back like a dream).

We are about a year down the road. I ride 5 days, lunge 1 day. If I can’t ride, I make sure someone lunges him so he’s working 6 days a week. We jump around over low stuff - logs, x-rails.

So he’s big and buff and fighting fit. He’s my muscled-up beast of an OTTB! Working well under saddle, no more head tilt, no more balking. Swings along like a happy guy. That said, from what I read about this problem we could face problems in the future.

Also I’m not sure how much of his issues were caused by kissing spines, or by ulcers, and being underweight and undermuscled, and having tooth problems (he came to me looking pretty pathetic - lots of stuff to fix up).

But the imaging did show several overlapping processes and the vet gave him a diagnosis (damnit, because now I can’t get him insured for the surgery if I need it). So I consider him a kissing spine success story for now.

There’s a poster on here (I think called Comedic Eventer) who has a horse with kissing spines - no surgery, still competing I think. You might search for her posts about kissing spine.[/QUOTE]

What you did is exactly our plan. My vet and chiro both said he will have to be worked long and low and back muscles kept built up from here to eternity but I suppose that would be the same as if you had surgery done. I asked him point blank if he had a lot of kissing spine horses. He said quite a few. I asked about success and he said most returned to full work with conservative only treatment. He said most were performance horses. I still am nervous about cutting the ligament . For human patients who have had spinal fusion, they almost always have issues above and below the fusion. I KNOW conservative treatment won’t hurt him. Will it help or return him to full service? Time will tell and that’s why I started this thread. To let others who may be fighting this know what we did and if it helped.

[silverdog]

My 2 cents worth. Agree with Blackpony. It will be next to impossible to fix overlapping processes with out surgery. Also if you have over lapping processes, it is unlikely that the lig snip procedure would be appropriate. My horse had 3 touching processes and 2 very close. Had bone shaving on all 5 a year ago and he is doing amazing. Wish I had known about this when we started him - (given the training issues we had, it has been bothering him a long time). Make sure you have a very thorough lameness exam before the surgery to make sure there are no surprises lurking beneath the surface. In KS there is a lot on compensation going on and it is not unusual for them to have sore hocks/stifles/neck/poll/SI.
Not sure where you live but I will say that the KS expert in Texas is unlikely to say conservative trmt is going to effective when you have quite a few over lapping processes. He also says saddle fit has nothing to do with it but certainly a bad fitting saddle will bother a horse whether they have KS or not.
I think you are being led down the wrong path and would recommend having an eval by an experience vet who will do the bone surgery. It is pricy - $2500 and up. But worth every single penny!!

[CindyCRNA]

[QUOTE=silverdog;8389147]
My 2 cents worth. Agree with Blackpony. It will be next to impossible to fix overlapping processes with out surgery. Also if you have over lapping processes, it is unlikely that the lig snip procedure would be appropriate. My horse had 3 touching processes and 2 very close. Had bone shaving on all 5 a year ago and he is doing amazing. Wish I had known about this when we started him - (given the training issues we had, it has been bothering him a long time). Make sure you have a very thorough lameness exam before the surgery to make sure there are no surprises lurking beneath the surface. In KS there is a lot on compensation going on and it is not unusual for them to have sore hocks/stifles/neck/poll/SI.
Not sure where you live but I will say that the KS expert in Texas is unlikely to say conservative trmt is going to effective when you have quite a few over lapping processes. He also says saddle fit has nothing to do with it but certainly a bad fitting saddle will bother a horse whether they have KS or not.
I think you are being led down the wrong path and would recommend having an eval by an experience vet who will do the bone surgery. It is pricy - $2500 and up. But worth every single penny!![/QUOTE]

Conservative treatment ain’t cheap either! Lol We are in Kansas City so we could go to K State or MU.

[caryledee]

I had the lig snip done in April after meds, lunging, chiro, and injections did not help. Mine had similar symptoms…stumbling, not wanting to go forward, not wanting to bend, picky about saddle fit, and finally starting to rush. He is built very similar to your horse…big shoulder, short back, high withers. The ligament was snipped in 2 places, directly under the saddle area. The procedure and recovery were a breeze. However, they cannot do this surgery successfully if there is arthritis in the facet joints.

I think every horse is different and I hope yours can recover with just conservative treatment. A lot of them do (per my lameness vet.) But like you said, the conservative treatment can actually be more expensive in the long run. I paid < $1000 for the surgery. But you need to be comfortable with the decision before you send them in for it. Good luck!

[CindyCRNA]

[QUOTE=caryledee;8389592]
I had the lig snip done in April after meds, lunging, chiro, and injections did not help. Mine had similar symptoms…stumbling, not wanting to go forward, not wanting to bend, picky about saddle fit, and finally starting to rush. He is built very similar to your horse…big shoulder, short back, high withers. The ligament was snipped in 2 places, directly under the saddle area. The procedure and recovery were a breeze. However, they cannot do this surgery successfully if there is arthritis in the facet joints.

I think every horse is different and I hope yours can recover with just conservative treatment. A lot of them do (per my lameness vet.) But like you said, the conservative treatment can actually be more expensive in the long run. I paid < $1000 for the surgery. But you need to be comfortable with the decision before you send them in for it. Good luck![/QUOTE]

I spoke with my vet yesterday. He said most of his performance horses have returned to full work with conservative treatment. None have required surgery. He said the UK was having better luck with their surgery patients than Pennsylvania (?) as I guess Pennsylvania was the first to start the procedure here. May Im ask what saddle you use?

Shock wave number 2 yesterday and he tolerated it without sedation. Prestige is getting in 2 more saddles for me to try. The Passion fit him pretty well but it was like sitting on a park bench.

[caryledee]

[QUOTE=CindyCRNA;8390986]
I spoke with my vet yesterday. He said most of his performance horses have returned to full work with conservative treatment. None have required surgery. He said the UK was having better luck with their surgery patients than Pennsylvania (?) as I guess Pennsylvania was the first to start the procedure here. May Im ask what saddle you use?

Shock wave number 2 yesterday and he tolerated it without sedation. Prestige is getting in 2 more saddles for me to try. The Passion fit him pretty well but it was like sitting on a park bench.[/QUOTE]

I got him a custom Black Country. Because he has a short back and I have long legs, their upswept panel option works well. You can also get serge panels (wool). He also did well in a County Stabilizer but the price is a lot higher.

[CindyCRNA]

Vic is progressing well. His last of 3 shock wave treatments is this Thurs and he has settled into his pessoa training system rig well. He works 10 min in each direction now 3 times a week. He is ridden 1-2 days per week for 20-30 min at a walk and canter as he still needs to strengthen to trot under saddle.

The saddle search continues. prestige has been working diligently with us and I’m looking to trialing a County Stabilizer. I won’t know if any of this works until he is back in full work and jumping so I am taking a lot of leaps of faith, especially where the saddle is concerned. I have to buy a saddle to work him but I don’t know if he’ll hold up. My vet is optimistic.

[Helicon]

Be careful not to go too far the other way and get something too scoopy. If the saddle rocks at all it will condense a lot of pressure onto a small area of the horse’s back.

[AlterWalter]

OP, how is Vic doing? Any updates?