The greatest sire son producer in TB mares from Germany is the Waldrun family. It produced TB sons who made their mark on sport horses in Germany and Holland for generations of mares.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10213951
Her? It seems like her most influential sons were by Neckar. Who was also the sire of Vierzehnender (sire of Marchenfee… the mare I keep on focusing on) and Vollkorn.
So perhaps the influence of the stallion Neckar is as much a factor in the success of these mares in terms of producing jumpers as anything else?
Her. It’s not just her own produce that ended up so influential in sport but the stallion sons of her daughters and granddaughters.
It’s the same female family as the Goody Two Shoes family which was responsible for, among others, Sadler’s Wells and Nureyev.
In France you have many, nowadays WB-marelines, which started not so long ago with TB-mare as its sport origine.
Première Main by Birum - Rialto - Blue Skies - Rialto. It’s the female line of Saperlipopette. 5 foals and 2 international performers with an ISO of 179 and 168, both by Double Espoir.
Her daughter Niobe d’Orvault is by Double Espoir, too. ISO 108 (above average but not by much).
Niobe is the mother of 17 foals (first in 1985 last in 2004) : 4 stallions (3 by Hurlevent, 1 by Voltaire). 2 children with ISO > 173, 4 with ISO >128, 6 other with ISO > 100.
The second female of Première Main, ISO 168, had 4 foals (2 / 2). The female don’t have any progeny (according to the website ‘webpedigrees’).
Again according to webpedigrees, the mareline is very much alive, but no notable performers in the younger generations of all branches.
L’Echappée by Trésor - Deux Pour Cent - Black Devil - Monarch - Gay Crusader.
7 foals, 5 TB and 2 SF. 3 fillies. Her TB-females were bred to TBs and SF without much performances. 1 of her TB-daughters produced in the AA-SB.
Her only SF daughter, Elyria is at the beginning of a very good mareline. Elyria is by Nykio, a Fra Diavolo-son out of a TF-mare.
Elyria has 5 stallion-sons : I Love You (by Almé), Kiss Me Fontaine and My Lord Fontaine (both by Erioso, a Rantzau - Furioso-son), Uptolove Fontaine (by Le Tot de Semilly) and another Almé-son, Velcome Fontaine. All these stallions were above average performers and some very good performers.
Except Nighty Fontaine, no international performers in all branches, but some good horses (ISO in the range of 140/130). Mostly these good performers were out of TB-descendants, or with a TB-ancestors nearby and Galoubet and his son Quick Star.
Her daughter Nighty Fontaine (by Dark Tiger, a TB) is the mother of Alligator Fontaine (ISO 190, 'til today the highest ISO for a stallion, by Noren) and Frascator Mail (ISO 170, by Jalisco B). She was one of the founder mares for Haras de Brullemail.
Tresor Mail, one of her grand-sons (by Jaguar Mail out of Nocturne Mail) is a good eventing performer, and a stallion too).
Alligator is difficult to breed in the actual situation. He breeds best with mares by TBs or direct TB-mares. He is a good motherfather.
Last example (even if there are many many more …) is the female line of Bassano de Nantuel.
Bassano is a Baloubet du Rouet - Calypso d’Herbiers - Kaolin de Lyre - AA/TB line.
Without going into details, here too the best performers and the mares with good descendants have blood courants (either TB or AA) nearby.
Bassano himself, young and promising stallion born in 2011 has a very good paper, but somewhat uncommon.His 4th mother was a TB-mare, but produced in the AA. So the 3rd mother of Bassano was an AA-mare, by a Nithard son.
Royaltie, his 2nd mother is by Kaolin de Lyre, a Night and Day - Le Mioche-son. Night and Day was a good stallion in the SF-SB, known to give blood and aptitude to his progeny, very hot horses. And in this paper, his son was bred to a mare out of AA-mother with a TB-mare as grand-mother …
And Royaltie, too was bred to a stallion, Calypso d’Herbiers, who can be used in place of a TB-sire (meaning he gives blood, little bone, and makes beautiful (chic as the French say) horses).
Bassano is one Baloubet-son who really is a beautiful horse, unlike many of the Baloubet-descendants. He stands at Clarbec-stud, which cooperates with Penelope Leprevost, which is an indication of the esteem and the expectations for his (futur) career.
Thanks for sharing OBdB and Viney.
So I looked a few more mares up… Just to compare a specific subset…
Kambas was the TB mare in Bassano de Nantuel’s dam line
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Kambas&x=40&y= 3
Goody two shoes and Waldrun Viney covered…
http://www.pedigreequery.com/goody+two-shoes
http://www.pedigreequery.com/waldrun
And here are two more relevant mares…
http://www.pedigreequery.com/bonne+cause
http://www.pedigreequery.com/miss+betty
Miss Betty was Hand in Gloves dam.
All are family number 5.
Bonne Cause was also family 5, as, IIRC, Royal Canopy. However, an anomaly has been discovered in 5e, which is the Bonne Cause family, that shows a different founder mare from the rest of Family 5. I’m going off memory so might not be correct. The information is available on bloodlines.net.
Among contemporary Thoroughbreds attributed by stud book record to family 5 three different mitochondrial DNA haplotypes have been found, representing no fewer than three separate founder mares. One of these haplotypes is found in 5g and 5h, another in 5d and 5e, and the third in an unspecified part of the ‘trunk’ of family 5.
[URL=“http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Families/Family5e.htm”]http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Families/Family5e.htm
5h is the Goody Two Shoes and Waldrun family.
Great topic - when narrowing my options on which stallions to use, I invariably pick the one from the strongest dam. I want her genetics too (maybe even more than the sire of the sire).
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/106212/maternal-influences-make-a-difference
