In an interview, Egbert Schep, a Dutch breeder and seller of Big Star, says the following about breeding for GP: “I would say it’s better to talk about the mare lines because the mares are much more important than the stallions. If you look nowadays at the horses in the big sport, all by of course a good father because there are enough good stallions, they all come from mare lines that are dominant.”
Is this view widely shared?
His point is quite valid. As most breeders don’t breed to garbage stallions (why would they with the availability and ease to breed to the best?) Of course one should look at the mares.
For me this is a great dividing factor between horses produced in europe and some in the US–you are far more likely in the US to see a top stallion bred to a so-so mare, especially OTTBs of varying quality, and the resulting foals can vary as well.
Mares greatly influence foals–one would be foolish to ignore them.
Good marelines are important, no doubt about that !
But the real question is : what makes a good mareline ?
and also : is it a genetic trait ? and does it vary in its evolution ?
I think it must be genetic. The long history of the Thoroughbred seems to prove that. The Agnes lines, the Pretty Polly line, the Alexander Mare of 1790 lines, the Gallopade line, the Black Duchess line, and many others all have gone on for centuries producing athletic and speedy horses. There are mare lines that just produce good producing mares. Others have pretty much died out.
sorry but not all the branches of these female lines are consistently successful …
especially in TB breeding, the pros speak of fluctuating quality, disappearing and re-emerging after some time.
Not all the horses from any mare line in any sport are consistently successful. The ones I mentioned have over time proved to remain successful. And it’s quite true that some TB mare lines’ success has diminished and re-emerged. But we only know that because of the long history and the keeping of data on success in racing.
why should the chronologie of quality in WB marelines be diffenrent than in TB-marelines ?
I never said it was. I just said that it was easier to trace TB marelines with racing success because such good records have been kept. That’s why in my opinion, good producing mares come from good producing marelines because of their genetics.
I agree partially … one has to have goog breeding stock, no doubt !
I think the main factor is the knowledge that the breeders have of their marelines. Those who know them well and have a sense for horse breeding maintain the quality, whereas the others …
Absolutely agreeing with you, OBdB (by the way, greetings from HGF ;)) but don’t Forget the influence of the rider/Management of the horse. Even products of the “best” marelines can sink into insignificance if not with the best riders/Trainers/owners.
I also absolutely agree with you at that knowledge-factor! One can estimate the heredity of a mare a considerable amount better if he knows the Mares several gernerations back and their offspring.
A look at Big Star’s pedigree in Horse Telex Shows that his dam line was consistently bred to top jumper sires each generation.
As to the consistency of their produce I leave that judgment to you.
it is fact that the mare lines of the KWPN and Holsteiner and Selle Francais are almost completely distinct and unrelated in direct tail female line from registry to registry.
Yet all 3 registries produce top sires and top performers. So these mare families were ‘bred up’ from non-discipline animals over 5-7 generations. Without the top sires, they would not have been able to do this.
Are mares important? Absolutely.
-If you know what they produce and they have been consistently bred to sires that get strong performers in your chosen discipline.
Grading up from a very good performing mare, whose parents are of a single breed or type that have not been trained for performance in the chosen discipline is also quite a successful strategy. -Over 2-3 generations.
Are there TB dam families successful in Sport when crossed with jumper sires of note?
The only top notch recent jumper from a TB mare line that I can recall off the top of my head is Plot Blue. I’m also sure that there are some TB tail female lines in the SFs, but the French had access to far more TB mares than the rest of the Continental Europeans who have never had the numbers of TB mares available that the French have had. There also have been a number of Irish and British event horses from TB dam lines. Avebury is one.
I had a mare out of TB female family 14-c, Lucky on Wings. This was a rather futile branch with regard to racehorse production among the last few dams. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lucky+on+wings
Horses that have a TB dam line: http://www.horse-gate-forum.com/forum/zucht-und-vererbung/mut-zum-blut-edle-tropfen/86373-aus-reinem-vollblutstamm-gezogen-und-trotzdem-erfolgreich
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/203492
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10205954&blood=10"a=
When I win the lottery and go shopping in Holland, you can bet your bippy I am looking for horses out of special mare lines. I want a Sina, a Balia, a Karla, and a Zottie (well, TWO Zotties). I will need to hire a pro to ride the Balia and the Karla, but I expect to win all the high ammy’s on the Sina and the world will be my oyster with whichever Zottie is not busy popping out foals. The Balia might have a head like a suitcase and a mouth of iron but she will jump mountains. Karla will be fiery and beautiful and frequently hostile. The stallions will be just about irrelevant.
a good mareline, bred carefully over GENERATIONS (durchgezüchtet) can do once in a while with a mediocre or bad stallion without loosing her quality, but not bad stallions in succession …
so you can tell me that good marelines are important and I wholeheartly agree, you tell me that the stallions are of no importance, I wholeheartly disagree !
I’m also convinced that there are marelines that produce better mares than stallions, and vice versa. As an instance, look at Selene. She produced six or so of the greatest TB stallions in history, but her daughters, even by the same stallions, couldn’t produce anywhere near the quality of their brothers. Then you look at a mare like Pretty Polly, and she produced daughters who were great breeders but her sons weren’t.
I’m wondering if the same is true of stallions. I haven’t really noticed that in the males, but I haven’t looked.
I’m speaking only of breeding success, not performance success.
The Pretty Polly Female Family: http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Families/Family14c.htm
I believe that in every race mare’s production, there will be “dead branches on the speed tree.”
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