Dressage has a certain appeal for analytic types, self included. I’ve been doing this since I was 11 and even at that age, was very committed to drilling down into the details to “get it right”. For example, my first instructor told me early on that I should be able to feel each hoofbeat and at any time tell her which one was off the ground when she asked. So I spent my time between lessons working on that exactly until I could do it. When I scribed for the first time, the judge told me the outside rein should feel like a thick rubber band, and the inside like a thin one. So I went home and worked on exactly that until I got that feeling.
Some years (decades…) later, I think these are good details to track, but maybe they should have been a natural by-product of correct work/instruction, not something I necessarily needed to spend many hours practicing in isolation. I definitely see new riders and kids around me who learned how to do nicer work than I do faster than I did, and think I must have misunderstood what details are truly important.
Similarly, I’ve noticed across all the instructors I’ve ridden with over the years, they can all say the same general correct things, all identify the same generally correct work, but the effectiveness of the instruction comes down to which details they focus on - and as with training horses, how they time their corrections :winkgrin:
Is this all just individual or are there some universally important details with respect to learning dressage? I’m asking about the learning process as a rider specifically, not universally important details in dressage itself (e.g. in front of the leg, inside leg to outside rein, etc.)
It’s not very good to drill down details with horse or people, as it might not ever make anyone involved getting it right.
For example, my first instructor told me early on that I should be able to feel each hoofbeat and at any time tell her which one was off the ground when she asked. So I spent my time between lessons working on that exactly until I could do it.
Yeah… and no.
I believed you lost quite some time on details instead of understanding why it was important and how/when to feel it.
When I scribed for the first time, the judge told me the outside rein should feel like a thick rubber band, and the inside like a thin one. So I went home and worked on exactly that until I got that feeling.
And that is a « it depends » situation.
It should actually feel quite the same - even contact - but as with everything, it depends.
How do you know you ever got « that » feeling?
Some years (decades…) later, I think these are good details to track, but maybe they should have been a natural by-product of correct work/instruction, not something I necessarily needed to spend many hours practicing in isolation.
Practicing in isolation is never good - you need eyes on the ground, you need a plan and realistic goals.
I definitely see new riders and kids around me who learned how to do nicer work than I do faster than I did, and think I must have misunderstood what details are truly important.
And that’s because each rider has it’s own learning path and curve.
You were probably just not ready yet to understand clearly what the trainer and the judge were saying.
Similarly, I’ve noticed across all the instructors I’ve ridden with over the years, they can all say the same general correct things, all identify the same generally correct work, but the effectiveness of the instruction comes down to which details they focus on - and as with training horses, how they time their corrections
At some point, the rider has to ride.
This is another step in the training ladder where you ride and the trainer offers more ideas - the rider having the tools and the skills.
Is this all just individual or are there some universally important details with respect to learning dressage? I’m asking about the learning process as a rider specifically, not universally important details in dressage itself (e.g. in front of the leg, inside leg to outside rein, etc.)
You have to ride the horse you have the way it needs to be ridden - and have a plan on how to make it progress following the training scale.
If the horse is progressing, it means the rider is progressing too.
@alibi_18, thanks for your response! I agree with your points.
Any recommendations on developing appropriate plans/goals? I have many resources on the training scale at my disposal, but not sure if I’ve seen good examples/methods of turning that into daily/weekly/monthly goals and plans. I’d be very interested in good resources and advice here.
FWIW I’ve spent a good portion of my life on “problem” horses (physically or mentally), where very often the plan is lots of soft, supple, relaxing repetition for as long as it takes until everything is no big deal. So when I try to do something other than desensitize and supple, I feel sometimes like my timescale for progress is set too long and my metrics for progress are so fine that the increments don’t actually build on each other well.
The way I taught my students was to break tasks down into the details to start. When doing something, let’s say a leg yield, we started with the inside rein asking for a little bend, the inside leg goes back and pushes the horse towards the outside as the inside hind comes off the ground, the outside rein catches that energy and keeps the hindquarters coming over, the outside leg keeps the forward. This gave a series of steps to do a thing.
Those of us who have advanced beyond this stage realize that these steps don’t happen in isolation, one step at a time, but sometimes concurrently or very rapidly and are subject to change depending on the horse’s response and how we want that to change.
As the rider becomes comfortable doing the leg yield I reduced the verbal guidance to the steps, allowing the rider to think of them as they needed. I moved to a leg yield direction with a reminder of the aid they missed or were not doing effectively, and in time (we talked about this) the rider no longer thinks of each step but thinking “leg yield” produces the necessary combination of aids automatically. The rider then has the knowledge of the steps/aids to run through if they aren’t getting the leg yield they want and the brain power to actually think about the quality of the leg yield and how to influence it to improve.
I think part of what the OP experienced is excess focus on a single step instead of working of that step as part of larger activities. Riders are always working on contact or suppleness as part of the movement. The movement can be used to specifically target a weakness as part of the whole. Focusing too much on one thing like the contact can create missed opportunities to advance other things at the same time.
What type of horse do you have?
and I mean by that age, fitness and conformation.
FWIW I’ve spent a good portion of my life on “problem” horses (physically or mentally), where very often the plan is lots of soft, supple, relaxing repetition for as long as it takes until everything is no big deal.
We mostly all do.
I would say you should first change that mind set to a different one : you are simply training horses.
Once you’re pass the « it’s ok if it acts up, it’s a problem horse », « it’s normal if it not listening, it’s a problem horse » and « it’s taking a lot of time because it’s a problem horse » mind set, you will see a difference.
A lot of people do blame their lack of progress onto their horse’s problems.
If the horse is not making progress:
The horse is not being trained correctly
The trainer/rider is overhorsed
The horse is in pain/unrideable
So when I try to do something other than desensitize and supple, I feel sometimes like my timescale for progress is set too long and my metrics for progress are so fine that the increments don’t actually build on each other well.
Riding is all about the basics - keeping the horse supple being one of them.
It doesn’t have to have increments, it’s an ongoing process from Intro to GP.
I would suggest you work on your basics through exercices with a trainer.
Interesting problem. May I suggest that rather than thinking about foot fall and elastic reins, which are very much rider focused, you shift your focus outwards, onto the horse and the pyramid of training. Put your mind to the feel of the horse: is it straight, can you ride variation with the gait, is it feeling supple on both sides or is one side less so, is every corner ridden to maximise benefit, every halt square, etc, etc. That is were attention to detail counts.
I believe a rider reaches a stage when they no longer consider their own skills, and how they feel, but concentrate on what the horse, the other half of the partnership, is thinking and feeling. Then comes a magical level of harmony. It helps to gain experience in different environments, in different activities and on a variety of horses.
That kind of attention to detail is a good thing to have for a dressage rider, and the discipline to keep working until you get it right is also good.
However, as someone has already posted , the end goal for a dresage rider is to be able to feel and process the reactions and responses of the horse.
To me the ideal learning process would be based on the European model:
Lunge lessons on a steady, secure schoolhorse at all gaits until the student has a confident and secure seat with no reins and no stirrups.
Dressage Theory: The training pyramid and why it is important that the student understands not only the movements and exercises but the purpose of the exercises.
I firmly believe that a rider cant really develop “feel” or perhaps one could call it “true connection” without a sense of physical and mental security.
An instructor needs to do more than just teach a rider to sit the trot. They also need to teach the rider how to work within that sitting trot, and also to work within the other two gaits without going to the firm outside rein or soft inside rein.
If and when they master that, the “details” will fall into place.
I am asking these questions to figure out where I went wrong with myself in my training relationships over the last 3 decades so I can do better with the next one, which will be pointed at mid+ level dressage (for goals like USDF medals) and low-mid level jumpers (for fun). Have trainers in mind for help, but need to change something about myself to get more out of training relationships than I have in the past. I don’t know what it is I need to change though, hence the questions. Happy/willing to do that for sure, but am struggling to ask the “right” questions to get clarification.
Will be looking for a young sound green warmblood or carefully selected sport-bred Tb for a long term partnership, so looking for general advice on goal-setting and planning for developing a green horse.
While this is true and fair and I get what you’re saying*, I have gotten feedback from multiple pros over the years that my horses (current and past) are capped at first level and/or will only been viewed as not capped at first level if I can develop their gaits sufficiently myself to make them look like they have potential for more. But then there’s a Catch-22. If I’m considered not good enough to improve my horse’s gaits enough to the point where my trainer believes they have some potential, but they aren’t able/willing to help me develop the gaits if they don’t think there’s potential, what do I do? If the quality of my riding/training is the problem, why is the answer from the pros “I don’t know if this horse can get past 1st” rather than “He should be able to, but you need to change XYZ to make that happen.”
The latter is the kind of feedback I did get from instructors in Germany the few years I lived there and it was hugely beneficial. I was the same student there as here, so I’m struggling to understand how to communicate better with US instructors to get the same kind of feedback I got in Germany. I get that the onus is on me to understand them and fit their programs, but clearly I have failed to do that in the past and my experience in Germany showed me that there’s something better I can aim for. I don’t understand why the clarity in Germany was so much better than here, other than probably the instruction I’ve generally had frequent access to in the US has just not been very good, which is probably true, but I feel like I’m going to get chastised for saying that too.
I think there’s a cultural aspect to though. For example, I’ve had multiple trainers in the past tell me that they’re afraid to tell their other students “hard truths” for fear of losing them to other trainers (context was that they were also telling me that they appreciate that I’m a good student and work hard and can take criticism), but in Germany, forthrightness is a way of life. I think also we in the US can sometimes be more demanding about details and lose the forest for the trees - which is relevant to the title of this post…
*I’ve ridden many dozens of horses of all kinds of types and quality. I don’t speak confidently about just about anything regarding my abilities and capacity with riding, but it’s 100% the case that I have a really diverse breadth of experience with green and low level horses. I’ve also been on quite a few schoolmasters and have a sense from that of what the end product of good basic training feels like. I acknowledge this does not mean I do anything well, but I feel like I can say with some confidence that it feels fundamentally different to get on a horse that needs years to develop decent 1st level gaits and a horse that is born with clear potential, even if the basic work is the same. I also don’t say this to blame the horses for my failings - I just think it’s important to triage what the individual horse needs relative to its own strengths and weaknesses and understand what the timeline looks like for making major changes when there are substantial problems. And for some horses, those problems will require much longer timelines. Like one horse I worked with was an abuse case and it took at least a year before he could do decent Intro/Training work because it just took that long for him to consistently trust his rider and go relaxed and rhythmically in his work, at all gaits, through transitions, etc.
Sorry for so much wordiness - I’ve been told in other contexts that “this” (wordiness) is my real communication problem - could be the answer for Germany as well, since my fluency was limited…(kidding)
Developing the gaits is a factor of time and gymnasticizing the horse. It’s the same process for any horse, regardless of the talent. Some find some things easier than others, just like people. But horses are not born with the “second trot” the swing, cadence, collection. They may LOOK like they have it, but they need to develop the strength and athleticism too. Seeing is not always believing.
Any horse can make it to second level. The flying changes may be where the rubber hits the road, but a willing horse who is properly fit and ridden can do second level to some degree of acceptability.
The thing is that very specific details aren’t what make you “good enough.” A natural sense of feel, and the ability to connect with a lot of different horses and do the right thing at the right moment makes you “good enough.”
Ok, this is a clear problem. And it is one that plagues virtually every ammie in every discipline. It’s called not getting the horse forward enough, or in front of the leg. Ironically the more scope the horse has, the harder it is for most ammies to get true impulsion.
That’s because the horse with bigger gaits is often harder to sit, or even post. Plus most ammies have a bit more fear than the average pro. And also ammies can go down a rabbit hole worrying about how to trade off impulsion, balance, cadence etc.
If you are in dressage lessons, especially on a school master, there comes a time sooner rather than later when your coach pushes you up to a lengthened or extended trot, and says Ok that’s where you need to be. And you are thinking: we’re about to launch into outer space.
Same in jumping. Finally your coach says “Ok that’s a canter you can do something with!” And you are thinking: no, that’s a full out gallop.
Then you look at the video and see it was still modest and nonspectacular.
This happens to every ammie.
You get out of it by making impulsion a priority. First you need a horse you feel basically safe on. Then you need to ride him on softer contact. You need to let go of the need to control every step and to balance every step. You need to find his big working trot right at the start rather than go years with an undertempo shuffle then choke that down into a collected trot before trying to start lengthening.
I would strongly suggest getting some lessons on a trained horse. It doesn’t need to be a Grand Prix school master, just a horse that has lengthen and collect confirmed. Solid talented Second Level would be fine. Learn what impulsion feels like and why it’s the base of the training pyramid.
I have smart analytical friends, and their Achilles heel is going down rabbit holes that are only a small part of the picture. They will fixate on one thing but lose the larger view. If you lose impulsion nothing else will work.
Firstly, so much this!!! EVERY time I have had the opportunity to watch myself jump, I am watching and thinking “boy, I’m not going very fast”! And all the while on the ride I’m thinking I’m flying at light speed.
OP - I am very analytical as well and I also notice itty bitty things; moreso when it comes to health/barn management etc than being that detailed about riding and training. That honestly would take a lot of the enjoyment I get away from it, but that’s just me. My advice to you is don’t sweat the small stuff and don’t go down too many rabbit holes…learn which ones are worth pursuing and which are not. I also have yet to find a coach/trainer in 30 years here in the US that was reserved about feedback LOL…I’d make sure you are clear about your expectations with that up front, especially if you are seeing this as a trend.
Interesting thread! I am in a not too different boat than you, OP, though it sounds like you’ve ridden more horses as an adult than I have. In the past couple years, I feel like I’m finally starting to “get” dressage, though I’m sure in another couple years I’ll say I knew nothing in 2020, and maybe now I’m starting to get it. :lol: But, right now I’m riding a slightly downhill appendix QH mare who is kind of long and has some other physical issues to get past. I only take lessons sporadically, and use online resources to study theory and fill in the gaps. But what has been essential for me, is having an instructor who has a background coming up on similar stock and race-bred horses, and is now working with a top trainer. So she understands my mare, and how to get the best out of her. We are at the cusp of finding collection right now, and my instructor feels totally confident that the mediums and flying changes will be there. I also have a 4 year old DeNiro/Weltmeyer mare, and my instructor has never once suggested that I should set aside the QH and just focus on the WB to avoid being limited to lower levels.
So that is a long way of saying, you need instruction from someone who understands how to get the best out of the horse you are sitting on. I would have probably gotten my QH doing a respectable first level test more or less on my own, but she probably would have been stuck at that point. With the right instruction, I understand the right amount to push to improve the gaits, and my little mare is now having moments of looking quite fancy and is quite conversant in most of the lateral work (we are just touching on trot HP recently). We missed show season this year, but I’m hoping to start her at first and then make the jump to second early next season.
So not being advanced, I don’t know the answer to your original questions, but what I’ve discovered overall is that developing the horse means working in positive tension much of the time, and pushing the envelope. It means lots of transitions in between gaits and through lateral movements, not just drilling the perfect 20m circle, but understanding why we ride figures, and then using them in variety. It also means learning the horse’s asymmetries and weaknesses, and then addressing them. In fact, I think many of the “problem” horses could be helped by using various exercises to help them feel more balanced, and therefore more secure, rather than by spending a ton of time just seeking relaxation riding circle or whole school.
I resemble this remark! Lol! My biggest riding issue with my gelding is not getting him truly forward. It’s hard. He’s green with big gaits and I’m a not so talented ammie. But we like each other so we carry on best we can.
OP one of my favorite tools to maximize instruction is video! Bonus for reviewing the video with the instructor!
Scribbler, what exactly in my post are you responding to? I understand well the transition you are talking about and have experienced exactly what you describe. I have been that fearful ammy, more as a teenager than as an adult and am well past the stage of being afraid to push my horse in front of my leg. Maybe I can do more, sure, can’t we all? But this is something I have in mind every day, every ride. So I need to know what specifically you are reacting to. Fwiw the horse mentioned was from when I was 17 - a long time and many horses ago.
Thanks, that is fair and I have made the same observations. Question still stands though. Why would a trainer in those cases say “I don’t know if your horse can do better” rather than “You need more impulsion”? Either the trainer does not know what they are doing (or they do but don’t know how to teach it) or there is more to the issue than just impulsion and a fearful rider. Are there other options I am not seeing?
If the trainer can’t fix your problem then you find a trainer who can.
We can’t possibly give an accurate interpretation of something a trainer said to you years ago. And that’s an example of going down the rabbit hole of unimportant details.
Lots of trainers are crap. And lots of coaches take cash from their intermediate adult ammie riders and resign themselves to the idea these riders and perhaps their horses have no talent and won’t improve. Lots of lower end dressage coaches don’t know how to take a slightly sucked back horse and rider combo and give it impulsion, in particular if the coach is overly focused on headset.
All sound horses can do a lengthened and even an extended trot. Not all horses will look like an Olympic level warmblood when they do their own version of an extended trot.
In your previous post that I responded to you said your trainers said specifically that you weren’t effectively showcasing your horses’ gaits and would not get past First Level. That’s a way of saying you lack impulsion.
The important detail here is impulsion.
The unimportant detail is how any given trainer in the past decade or two may have expressed that problem on any given occasion. I would not bother over interpreting comments from years back. Honestly a sucked back ride by an anxious ammie can eventually make even a very nice WB look rein lame, on the forehand, and pony trot.
Going forward I would recommend:
Find a trainer that understand impulsion.
Get a horse with decent gaits and a good brain that you feel safe riding into its full impulsion.
- could be the answer for Germany as well, since my fluency was limited…(kidding)