The limits of ground work

[Scribbler]

Musings on people who go down a groundwork path to fix issues with riding horses, and then never ride again. I think it’s happening now with R+ clicker training now that everyone has soured on the hidden coercion of “natural” horsemanship. It’s the new forum for over-promising and under-delivering results.

Everyone is well meaning but I think it’s a rabbit hole.

So I should preface this by saying I am a big fan of groundwork, liberty work, and clicker training, and feel I have been relatively successful in an ammie way. I’m pragmatic, I try to figure out what works with a particular horse. But I really really love riding. I feel safe, relaxed, connected, when I ride.

My experience has been that groundwork has important lessons for a riding horse but it’s not going to fix everything under saddle. And clicker training really doesn’t work from the saddle because you need to halt to treat. At some point you need to get on and ride to fix riding issues.

Also very importantly R+ fails when the horse is too excited or scared to care about treats. It’s fine for R+ trainers to say “yes, that’s why you need to keep them under threshold.” But it’s precisely those moments when your horse goes “over threshold” because of something in the environment that you need the horse to listen to you (respect you, fear you, whatever) and your pressure and not bolt away bucking into traffic. Whether in hand or under saddle.

I think we’ve all watched the Parelli newbies who start on a program to fix issues with a horse that’s scared them, and never get back on because you always need a bit more work first.

Now I think clicker training is going to become the new Parelli. I’ve now watched 3 seperate people transform themselves into R+ coaches and start to promulgate the idea in their students that you can achieve anything and everything through R+ if you just chunk it and work at it long enough.

Also that use of “pressure” is inherently wrong. It can get quite ideological (in the sense that R+ is the only socially just way to train, widespread now with dog trainers) and as one of my friends has said several times “it’s scientifically proven to work! There are actual real published studies!”

There is indeed a body of theory, animal behaviour is an academic discipline, and you can debate things like “is with holding a treat actually positive punishment?” And also slag more prominent people in the field “who get it all wrong” theoretically, which is a true marker of an academic discipline. My PhD is in something else and I want to leave my PhD brain out of horses, that’s why I ride

Anyhow I am watching this unfold.

Here’s the issue. The clicker trainers I know IRL are relatively smart people who have absorbed a lot of theory and fine points, but I still haven’t seen them get results I want from their own horses (they’ve all basically stopped riding) or clients (ditto). The clients are excited because they believe they are going to solve scary long standing issues with their horses, and also clicker is fun. But it also seems they find it very challenging to time and shape behavior, whereas I’ve found it fairly simple, too easy almost.

The clicker trainers I see online are pretty fraudulent, and I loathe people posting 15 second video clips of tack free beach gallops as if that is reasonable goals and not a carefully managed photo op stunt.

[sherian]

it’s a great tool for training some things, but it sure ain’t the magic method for everything that they think it is. Seems to attract young google experts with limited actual experience, and when older people say yes but it ain’t always the answer they can spout all the buzz words but they really don’t understand how it applies to real horses. I find people who actually did real animal behaviour/psychology courses are more likely to use it for specific issues only.
Watched a video posted by a young girl about a mare she bought at the local auction, she is quite convinced she is the next messiah sent to save our negative reinforcement souls. The mare has been a pasture broodmare for quite a few years, but I suspect she was was a 50/50 3 yr old so likely broke. Kid thinks all horses should come running to you with joy in their eyes and stuff their head in the halter, so when mare is like “meh, sod off human, I’m busy eating hay” she has decided mare is traumatized and scared to be haltered. Posted a video of stuffing treats in the mare as she put her nose in the halter than taking the halter away, repeat a gazillion times. Poor kid was quite gobsmacked when most of the people on the group weren’t singing her praises as the next great trainer. Maresy is happily training kid to be a pez dispenser of treats and I suspect will never break a sweat under saddle again. Kid wants to buy and retrain auction horses to save them from the evil meat man and is sadly going to get hurt when she runs into a horse that was someone’s problem dumped at an auction to disappear.

[findeight]

Seem to be the same people who attribute any minor issues to horse being abused. Seems the most common explanation/excuse for lack of progress. Ignoring the fact they are scared of the horse, are in over their heads skill wise or both.

Some things you can’t fix in other people and most do not listen if you try.

[poltroon]

All these tools have a place and it’s important to stay flexible and see what creates better communication and interactions with any particular horse.

(IME, the clicker CAN be used ridden, you just save the treats for later. The click doesn’t always get/need a reward; the click is just a clear “Well Done” signal. If your horse tells you to pound sand because there wasn’t a treat then you haven’t successfully bridged to a place where the horse actually enjoys working with and for you. But I also rarely use it ridden, only when I’m dealing with a particular specific thing.)

But I agree with you that so much it becomes an excuse to not ride when the person is fearful, and that while it’s amazing to have access to online advice, sometimes people need a IRL professional standing beside them and pushing them outside of what’s directly comfortable, or enabling more ambitious goals for happy, healthy horses.

So many people end up dogmatic and unable to see what works and what doesn’t or able to clearly assess their own limitations.

(I’m similarly annoyed with a saddle fitting group that seems to be 70% “oh never ride this horse, you need 6-8 months of groundwork to get him fit enough for a saddle” and mostly rags on people when they ask for saddle fit advice.)

[endlessclimb]

My saying is always ‘you don’t get better at things you don’t do.’

Sure, no doubt there is all sorts of prep work before the “doing”. But you still will eventually have to do it to get better at it. Period. There is no magic bullet to avoid that fact.

Never pushing a horse to and a little over threshold is a recipe for a horse who will be explosive with no tools in the toolbox to deal with it when the poop hits the fan. I’m not a proponent of outright flooding (tying scary things to horses without any prep, etc), but you must be asking “questions worth answering” regularly in your training. The world is not bubble wrapped.

[Jackie_Cochran]

When the economy eventually becomes worse will we see hundreds of horses who are “good” at the ground work exercises end up in sales barns or auctions when their owners can no longer afford to keep them?

IF these horses are not broke to ride or drive is there much hope that they will not end up on the meat trucks? People usually want to ride or drive their horses, not be responsible for the training bills to get that cheap auction horse actually broke to ride.

My first horse only had 3 weeks of training under saddle, but at least he was broke to ride. I lucked out, he was a relatively patient and forgiving horse (just gelded at 5 yrs. old, barely green broke) and with using Littauer’s “Common Sense Horsemanship” as my guide I was able to train him myself. I did it myself because there was no way I could afford to pay for a professional to train him.

Get your horses broke to ride!!! Do it yourself or pay a professional to do it for you (I recommend paying a professional to do it that is for sure!)

Otherwise when life goes haywire your precious horse may end up as meat, not as a riding horse for someone who loves him or her.

Give your horse a chance, go beyond ground training. Get your horse trained to be a riding horse.

[rulex]

Fixating on a single approach to training and working with horses seems rather dogmatic. Not very interesting to me.

I do feel sorry for the horses who get caught up in that and lack real world skills. Although maybe if the ground work thing becomes mainstream that will become enough?

I’ll just be over here riding my horse and pushing our comfort limits when the opportunities present themselves.

[Posting_Trot]

I’ve used clicker training in an occasional way, mostly for pretty specific things, like standing at the mounting block or picking up a hoof. In general, I’ve always thought that the biggest beneficiary of clicker training is actually the trainer rather than the horse. Learning to clicker train does teach you to break tasks down and then think about putting them back together.

I completely agree that you can’t train a horse to be ridden without riding it, nor can a rider learn to ride without riding!

[paintedpennypony]

My bachelor’s degree is in Animal Behavior. Positive reinforcement training was a huge focus in the animal cognition and animal learning classes that I took. It is a tool, just like everything else, and is not the end all be all that some people make it out to be. It’s really easy to do incorrectly if you don’t have a fundamental understanding of learning theory and can accurately read the animal so your timing is correct. I have seen many people end up with frustrated and confused animals that are worse off behaviorally in a lot of ways than they were before their owners attempted R+ training.

[cayuse]

Ok, I’m going to admit my ignorance or lack of ability to understand so everyone be gentle here and please help me sort it out. I can’t seem to understand why clicker training is any different from a verbal “good boy” and a cookie reward for a job well done. What am I not grasping? I do a bunch of ground work with my minis and some verbal praise and the occasional goody seems to get things headed in the right direction. Can someone explain what I’m missing out on? I guess the clicker seems like an extra step to me. I don’t think I could get my timing with it right. I think I’m confused

[paintedpennypony]

Clicker training is when you deliberately condition the clicker a la classical conditioning with a food/ praise/ toy/ etc reward so the animal comes to understand the clicker = reward = I have done something correct. It’s a very clear way of communicating exactly what you want from them, assuming you (1) condition the clicker correctly — clicker here being any sort of consistent marker — and (2) time your mark and reward at EXACTLY the precise moment they do what you are asking of them a la operant conditioning.

Using verbal praise and treats is still positive reinforcement, but without the marker/clicker the communication can get muddled.

ETA I’ll give an example of why timing is so hard for many people. The “touch” command is always the first thing I teach an animal after I condition the clicker. There’s a target that I ask them to boop their nose to. For my horses it’s a cut up pool noodle on the end of a lunge whip, for my dogs it’s my hand in a specific position. When you first bring the target out the animal has no idea what you’re asking of them. So the moment they even glance at it, click and reward. Then they’ll start turning their head in the general direction, click and reward. Take a step towards it, click and reward. Outstretch their head in the general direction, click and reward. Make accidental or inquiring physical contact with the target, HUGE PARTY! Click and reward! Eventually they’ll put it together that you are asking them to put their nose specifically to the target. Then you can use the target to teach other behaviors, like loading on a trailer, self-haltering, stepping up to a mounting block, or for the dogs, pretty much any obedience command or introduction to sports like agility. But… you have to be able to read your animal and what the building blocks of the goal behavior are so you know what to reward and when.

[Demerara_Stables]

@cayuse

I can’t seem to understand why clicker training is any different from a verbal “good boy” and a cookie reward for a job well done.

It’s not. When you get a blank slate (say, a young horse) that knows nothing, you have to teach them what “good” is, so you have to figure out what they like, then you can transition to saying “good girl.” For instance, you can start out by offering scratches or cookies or some other reward while also saying good girl. Eventually they learn that “good girl” verbally means they did the right thing.

It’s similar to training with negative reinforcement. You start by having to manually push them over to move away from you, while saying over, then decrease the pressure bit by bit (still saying over) until eventually you can just say the word or move to their side to get them to move their feet.

[Foxglove]

@Scribbler --I agree with you --but then I generally do. I think the perpetual ground work is similar to the artist who never finishes a painting --as long as it is in progress, it can’t be judged. As long as the handler is training the horse, there is no finished product and so the ability of the trainer can’t be questioned.

I have a few horse world acquaintances who are perpetual trainers, or maybe just dreamers. They own a horse or horses and have plans to trail ride, show, do endurance etc, but somehow never seem to get to the starting line --one has a horse that just needs more work, another a horse that won’t load, another an undiagnosed (except by the owner) kissing spine, ulcer, --or always needs adjusting or a different piece of tack --bit, saddle, pad, whatever --and these problems or stumbling blocks have existed for years . . .sometimes with sequential horses.

But someone once said on COTH (maybe you) that we own horses for different reasons --some to love and ride (me) some to love and care for without riding. Each to their own. If ground work is someone else’s jam --yeah for them.

I do wish that some of them would stop the endless preaching about whatever new technique he/she has discovered. But then, a good friend recently pointed out that all I do is babble about my newest passion: Ranch Horse Riding and Cow Work --guilty.

[Obsidian_Fire]

@paintedpennypony

I have seen many people end up with frustrated and confused animals that are worse off behaviorally in a lot of ways than they were before their owners attempted R+ training.

This. I personally know of someone on their THIRD horse who is now telling them to ‘eff off’ (with dangerous behavior) because they can’t seem to get past the “I want my horse to like me”, and understand that discipline is not a dirty word.

[CinchyMare]

I think clicker training has been a huge benefit to the horse industry and a step in the right direction for more kindness to horses. It is a tool, it has limits. If you want more riding success then you’re going to need to do more dressage type groundwork that might be more of a pressure release when the horse is good and a good boy.

I know that I can make a horse walk trot canter on the ground with dressage stuff then put up a rider and if I have lunged or long lined that horse in the correct balance then the rider can usually be more passenger like and the horse can hold the position and balance it learned from the groundwork.

I’ve also seen people try to click those positions and it was a disaster…

I find R+ most helpful with the farrier and feet and I wish more farriers were more open minded that a bucket of food can help wean a horse off sedatives and make it a more positive experience. And it’s great for the saddling process on young horses.

[Montanas_Girl]

@Scribbler

Also very importantly R+ fails when the horse is too excited or scared to care about treats. It’s fine for R+ trainers to say “yes, that’s why you need to keep them under threshold.” But it’s precisely those moments when your horse goes “over threshold” because of something in the environment that you need the horse to listen to you (respect you, fear you, whatever) and your pressure and not bolt away bucking into traffic. Whether in hand or under saddle.

This.

[tabula_rashah]

I think the difference is “good girl” or “good boy” is a muddy reward because most people are chatty with their horses. The click sound is very distinct and direct.

On the original post- I don’t think this is a new phenomenon. It’s just a latest trendy thing for the we don’t ride our horses because they are too (insert flavor of the day excuse/ reason here). The everything is a stressor and all training must be R+ is going wacky in all my dogs groups too. And really if you want to just have a horse and enjoy it, not ride it, etc- go for it. But realize that if something happens and the horse needs to be sold, you are pretty much setting it up to head to auction.

I do a fair amount of ground work with my horses, although I avoid treats unless I need to use them for getting very specific behaviors. I have a couple minute routine of stretching and bending that I love for checking the feel of greenie before I get on or using as what I term a brain re-call for a horse that is starting to get melt-downy. Like everything it’s a tool- how you use it is up to you and it’s not the immediate answer to every situation.

[endlessclimb]

@tabula_rashah

But realize that if something happens and the horse needs to be sold, you are pretty much setting it up to head to auction.

Bingo. I know someone who 90% of their horses’ ground manners are just ATROCIOUS but ponie is trying to communicate so you can’t say no. Then they wonder why they can’t get any of the horses sold…

[beowulf]

@Scribbler

Here’s the issue. The clicker trainers I know IRL are relatively smart people who have absorbed a lot of theory and fine points, but I still haven’t seen them get results I want from their own horses (they’ve all basically stopped riding) or clients (ditto). The clients are excited because they believe they are going to solve scary long standing issues with their horses, and also clicker is fun. But it also seems they find it very challenging to time and shape behavior, whereas I’ve found it fairly simple, too easy almost.

I’ve seen this in my own network too. I assume these ladies have already tried everything else. Most people aren’t going to be searching for alternative methods if what they’re doing is already working. That tends to attract a certain subset of people who might have horses who are not physically capable of riding careers. That in itself limits the sample size for riding success.

But, these people are very different than the enabling fluffy Dobbin-can-do-no-wrong horse clickers that don’t believe in discipline or general horse sense, IMO.

[FjordBCRF]

@Scribbler

So I should preface this by saying I am a big fan of groundwork, liberty work, and clicker training, and feel I have been relatively successful in an ammie way. I’m pragmatic, I try to figure out what works with a particular horse. But I really really love riding. I feel safe, relaxed, connected, when I ride.

I am much the same. When I read the title, my head went in a bit of a different direction. I’ve done more groundwork this year from April forward than ever with Charlie with getting his what turned out to be neck issues ID’ed and rehabbed. I always did some groundwork with him so it wasn’t new, but I have been thrilled with how it is all translating under saddle now that Im getting back to a little more consistent riding…so much so I think that the people who DO ride their horses…should incorporate it more

I don’t know any of the Groundwork People you are referring to in real life, but there are a couple Facebook groups Im part of that they seem to be very present on. Reading a lot of the questions that get posed, and a lot of the answers are something.