The OTTB and His Development

[LawsofMurph]

I am having an internal crisis that really shouldn’t bother me.

I have the most adorable 5yo OTTB that has been off the track now for a year and a half. He’s been the perfect gentleman in his transition to sporthorse life and I couldn’t be more proud of him.

For the past year and a half we have been working with my trainer/friend who has experience working with OTTBs and in dressage. It’s been a process just getting me used to riding such a different horse after 18 years with my late old man and a challenge getting me to “dumb down” the cues for the baby. But overall, I am so happy with where we are!

Me and my regular trainer agreed from the get-go that we were not going to rush anything. He was only 4 and just off the track when I got him and we are taking to slow to build him up for a long/sound career. Everything felt great… until I took a lesson with a dressage trainer.

It’s been nearly two years since my last actual dressage lesson due to losing my previous horse and breaking my arm so it was very nice to get a refresher. The current plan is to only lesson with her every once in a while since I’m not seriously showing right now. And the lesson was great! It’s so nice to be reminded of those discipline specific skills that have eroded in the past two years. But, one comment she made has stuck with me and keeps wriggling in my brain. She said, “This horse doesn’t have enough topline and should be a lot farther along at this stage based on what you want to do with him.”

I know, rationally, that I can’t compare a 5 year old who’s been strictly in dressage training with my OTTB but… the comment keeps nagging at me. Are we going too slow? Is what we’re doing going to hinder his development as we go? Or am I thinking too deep into this and he’s hasn’t been off the track all that long for goodness sake?

I guess I just need an outside opinion to stop the nagging thoughts. This is my first young horse and I don’t know what I don’t know.

[Bristol_Bay]

@LawsofMurph

She said, “This horse doesn’t have enough topline and should be a lot farther along at this stage based on what you want to do with him.”

That comment is like telling an eager student who wants to learn to read, “Too bad, you should have learned to read earlier.” Who does that help? How is that constructive?

It sounds like she is comparing your horse to a purpose-bred WB five year old who’s doing young horse classes.

Did she happen to show you any exercises to help develop his topline?

[LawsofMurph]

@Bristol_Bay

It sounds like she is comparing your horse to a purpose-bred WB five year old who’s doing young horse classes.

Did she happen to show you any exercises to help develop his topline?

I agree with this. She mostly has Warmbloods in her program and her other young horse is a Friesian cross, so we’re definitely in a different ball park.

And, yes, she gave me several things to work on both in the saddle and groundwork to add in. Along with things I can do to be a more supportive rider.

[JB]

@LawsofMurph

She said, “This horse doesn’t have enough topline and should be a lot farther along at this stage based on what you want to do with him.”

Assuming that’s what she actually said, then I hope her wording just didn’t come out in the way she intended

If he doesn’t have the muscling for what you want to do - yet - then it shouldn’t be hard hard to say “he’s a work in progress and he just needs more work and time to develop in order to do what you want”. Even a 3.5yo who wouldn’t have raced enormous numbers of races, doesn’t have the structural foundation of a horse who was started for “proper riding” at age 3 or even 2.5, so not only does he need the time to develop properly, all that first had to start with undoing the muscle development of a racehorse

@LawsofMurph

Are we going too slow?

That depends - what definition of “slow” are you using, and who defined it? If you’re still w/t then it’s likely you’re going slower than you need to (not the same as “too slow”). If you’ve been working on solid w/t/c to achieve a relaxed, forward, supple and properly energetic horse, then that’s absolutely not “too slow”

@LawsofMurph

Is what we’re doing going to hinder his development as we go?

What have you been doing? There’s a difference between hindering development, which includes poor saddle fit, poor riding or infrequent rides, etc, and proper work but taking your time.

@LawsofMurph

She mostly has Warmbloods in her program and her other young horse is a Friesian cross, so we’re definitely in a different ball park.

Good trainers see muscle development as it fits the horse, not a breed. The see that a horse is working correctly, not just what a “frame” looks like.

[beowulf]

@LawsofMurph

She said, “This horse doesn’t have enough topline and should be a lot farther along at this stage based on what you want to do with him.”

Comparison is the thief of joy. It’s unfair to compare an OTTB to a WB in terms of their progression in the training scale.

I’m unclear what level she expects him to be doing - 1st? 2nd? 3rd? I would expect Training level for a 5 y/o. Yes, WBs are put in YH classes and they are practically a completely different species than your horse. They are also not unlearning their first career, shedding physical baggage, or learning how to use their body in a way never asked before. The WBs competing in YH classes are not as broke as they look.

Dressage trainers have a different idea of topline. WBs come out of the gate (usually) with a solid topline that is genetics. TBs can have excellent toplines but typically a racing silhouette is very different topline and musculature than ridden work.

It is better to go slow then too fast. When that nice 5 y/o is rehabbing its first suspensory injury at 6, you just might be trotting down the centerline on your TB. And when that nice 5 y/o is now 12 and retiring from ridden work, you might be entering 2nd level with your nice TB. And hopefully when he is 22, you are still doing what he enjoys.

Just to help you feel better, I gave my growing WB filly a lot of time off. I wasn’t in love with her confidence carrying a rider when I backed her at 3 - she also went through big growth stages. I might have sat on her all of 200 days between her 4th and 6th year and I don’t regret it for one minute. Yes, I occasionally get the “so she’s behind for her age” comment from a trainer, but I always respond “No, she is exactly where she should be.” Happy and strong and sound in her work.

Horses pay the price for being pushed up the levels too soon, and it’s not just dressage riders doing it.

[Lost_Shoe]

There is not an age cut off to begin dressage training.

For example, a former trainer of mine took her advanced-level eventer and transitioned the mare to dressage and reached Grand Prix, and then sold the mare to a wonderful home for six figures. So, starting dressage training in the horse’s middle-age did not hinder that horse’s ability to advance up the levels of dressage or ability to sell for a high price. That is just one example but other examples abound.

The process of dressage training is what will build the horse’s top line. Muscle can be developed at any age. Many warmbloods are not started in dressage training until their 4th or 5th year to give their joints time to fuse. A 5 yo WB with no dressage training looks different from a 5 yo OTTB with no dressage training but that is due to genetics.

It sounds like this trainer is just biased against OTTBs. What she said is not accurate. She should try telling Hilda Gurney that TBs can’t do dressage.

[JB]

@LawsofMurph

“This horse doesn’t have enough topline and should be a lot farther along at this stage based on what you want to do with him.”

I read this again and had to come back to it.

This reads like someone pushing the horse to fit the human’s agenda. Wrong. Bass ackwards.

It’s like butchering a foot to fit a generic shoe.

This is what’s wrong with young horse classes/shows. It pushes people to make a horse ready for X simply because he’s Y years old. That’s a great way to ruin a horse mentally and/or physically.

Beowolf said it right with

@beowulf

The WBs competing in YH classes are not as broke as they look.

Lots of those horses are able to do the work asked of them at that age because they are structurally built for it, they’re young malleable. But a lot of them, whether the YH classes, or the auction rings where 3yos are w/t/c around in a frame that’s levels beyond their years, need a great deal of time off after that season in order to recover. And if they don’t get that time off, many of them start having mental and/or physical issues because they simply do not have the underlying foundation of fitness to keep working.

I don’t know that the trainer is biased against TBs, but it does sound like she doesn’t know TBs enough to see their genetic differences, and since she works mostly with breeds who are purpose-bred for Dressage work, and seemingly with the mindset that the horse must follow the age “requirements” to be at a certain level by a certain age, she sees your horse as “behind”

And that’s not ok. Just keep your mind open to anything that might seem like she’s trying to push your horse to do things he’s not ready for, in order to fit into her preconceived notions

[LawsofMurph]

Thank you all for the comments!

And you all are right. It’s not fair to compare the OTTB to the purpose bred WB type. I don’t necessarily think she’s “biased” against TBs, but maybe just not used to working with them. And it’s very possible that her comment just came out in a way she didn’t intend it to because, in general, she is a wonderful person. My last dressage trainer moved and she’s just too far away to see on any regular sort of basis.

My previous horse was Appendix and didn’t start dressage life until he was about 18 years old (and I finally realized I never wanted to jump again). He did great with what skills he had, but we were never destined for greatness at that age . It’s such a huge difference starting their journey rather than just choosing a new path and I’m constantly trying to learn more and do the best for him. It’s also been a huge leap to go from an Appendix to the OTTB.

Going forward, if/when I do more dressage lessons, I will treat them as more of a refresher for me to get back to where I was back when I was competing regularly.

I just needed someone to brain-check me so I really appreciate it!

[anonevent]

You are correct that you can’t compare 5yo horses who have been in dressage specific training programs as long as they’ve been undersaddle with a 5yo who had an entirely different professional career and the occasional dressage lesson. It isn’t fair. The trainer shouldn’t have said that.

My thoroughbred is in dressage training for most of the year and events the rest of the year. The change in muscle (especially topline) between disciplines is job security for my saddle fitter. After a couple months of consistent, correct dressage, he looks like a bodybuilder.

Also, he’s just a baby.

[PonyLove222]

Keep doing what you’re doing. We all have days like this of second guessing everything we’ve ever done. (Okay, maybe not FEI trainers with a stable full of imported purpose bred young horses, but that is not the norm). I would stick with your trainer who is more familiar with OTTB’s. There is a lot of truth in the saying “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”

You wanna hear about “being behind”? I like TB’s but am not crazy about the track baggage they can come with. So I did the most logical thing, and bought a TB weanling. Foolproof plan, right?!
Here we are, 7 years later and that weanling is now a strapping 16.2 mare, with zero interest in being a show horse. She is super soft, has a wonderful natural frame and topline, and I just safely took her on a 5 mile trail ride alone today. But anytime I’ve ever tried to really push her into getting our s**t together enough to play horse show, she gets sucked back and sour in her work. She doesn’t even like the horse show environment- much happier going for a hack. She has all her First level level buttons, some good pieces of Second and will offer a clean change on a good day. She just isn’t “into it”. I keep riding, waiting, hoping she wakes up one day and wants to be a show horse, and she is still young enough for it to happen. But I feel like an absolute epic failure most of the time.
If I think about it too hard, I get so embarrassed that this is all I’ve accomplished in 4 whole years of ridden work with this horse - We should at least have a few ribbons to show for our time together!! She should be playing with 4th level and jumping 3’+!! Especially when I see these people out competing their horses that have been off the track for 6 months! But she’s sound, I’ve respected her wishes enough that she isn’t sour, and we get along pretty well. When I take her out galloping in the fields, it almost makes me forget about ever wanting to half pass or jump big fences

Not to get all sentimental, but I do think sometimes horses and people get sent to us for a reason. I am not a patient person, but this mare has forced me to become one. I have a 1/2 WB who just turned 4 and is learning how to be a riding horse. His mom was out competing at 3, but he is still a total noodle. So, I will take some of the patience I’ve learned from the 7 yr old TB and just keep plugging along. Not exciting work, but it is rewarding.

Good luck. I will be cheering for you!

[islgrl]

I have a young morgan that I bought this spring right around her fourth birthday. She was basically unstarted. At all, she knew how to lead and do a couple other basic things. I look at what other 4 y.o. are doing and think that we’ll never get there. She’s hard right now. She’s not convinced that after 4 glorious years of not having a job that she wants one. But almost every day she gets a tiny bit better. and if she isn’t fully a riding horse until she’s 5 then she isn’t. I’ve never started a horse, I work full time, it is going to take longer. But I am looking at it as a journey. I am hopeful that she will eventually grow to love the work. I think she will, but I suspect it will be on her terms…

[atr]

Mental development is as important as physical development… I’ve known several young (5ish) warmbloods who.look very physically developed but dont yet have the mental capacity to do the “expected” work, and others who just eat it up.

Each horse is an individual.

[dmveventer]

What did you tell her your goals were for the horse? I’m just curious about the “based on what you want to do with him” comment. If you have particularly lofty competition goals it might be worth reconsidering whether this is the right horse/training situation to get you there, but otherwise I would just keep doing what you’re doing. We all feel like we’re getting nowhere and doing everything totally wrong sometimes. Each horse is an individual, they don’t abide by set timelines. Having trusted trainers in your corner is helpful to keep the second-guessing in check but at some point you know your horse best and just have to make the best call you can based on what feels right for them. Easier said than done!

@LawsofMurph

This is my first young horse and I don’t know what I don’t know.

Bringing along a young horse is a totally different skillset, give yourself some grace. In addition to teaching the horse how to do the thing you’re also teaching yourself how to teach the horse the thing. That’s a lot of moving parts. It’ll naturally take longer than it would with someone more experienced in the irons but the only way to get that experience yourself is to do it. Your horse doesn’t care about reaching his full potential - as long as you’re treating him fairly and you’re getting something out of the process that’s what matters.

[kaya842]

Maybe this is a bit of a hot take but I don’t think there’s enough in the OP (or replies) to fairly say that the trainers was out of line, doesn’t understand TBs, is rushing you etc. What are you currently doing? What are your goals? We don’t even know what the horse’s topline looks like. Maybe it’s beautiful, maybe there are some glaring issues - most likely it’s somewhere in the middle but we don’t know.

I will say, speaking generally and not about OP directly (because, again, not enough info), I think there’s has been a big trend in slowing things down WRT bringing horses along. Like to the point I saw a post from an OTTB influencer person that they didn’t ride for 3 years because that was the only way they could make progress with their horse (with the after clips showing them just trotting around). I think taking things slow is great but know, as I’m living it now with a 5yr old OTTB of my own, that it is easy to fall into a comfort zone and not push the horse to be just a little better. I see people all the time on both green and well broke horses, who have aspirations of moving up or showing more, who fall into the trap of not pushing themselves. They go around and around instead of saying can I get pony to stop right at C? What about exactly 1 stride after? Or whatever marginal improvement they could work on (which is why regular lessons are helpful for many as there is an external voice to help push the comfort zone and work on the continual improvement). There is so much that can be done at W/ T to get softer, straighter, more supple that will translate over to more advanced things later that nearly every horse and rider can work on.

I do think if a horse has been off the track for a year and half, barring any substantial injuries or mistreatment (mental baggage), you should be past the “unpacking the track life” stage.

[AllSport]

I’m learning a LOT lately and the people who mentioned the muscling of an OTTB vs another horse really hits home. Most TB’s I’ve worked with have been OTTBs, but the current baby was never race trained (a first for me) and his top line is totally different and he doesn’t get worked much at all.

Granted this is an n of 1 in the non-raced group and he’s younger than the others I’ve worked with too. Either way, based on this I agree that the OTTB has some undoing and redoing of muscling to do that takes time.

[LawsofMurph]

@kaya842

Maybe this is a bit of a hot take but I don’t think there’s enough in the OP (or replies) to fairly say that the trainers was out of line, doesn’t understand TBs, is rushing you etc. What are you currently doing? What are your goals? We don’t even know what the horse’s topline looks like. Maybe it’s beautiful, maybe there are some glaring issues - most likely it’s somewhere in the middle but we don’t know.

All fair comments. His topline, I personally think, is consistent with other horses at training level. He’s grown over 3 inches in height and really bulked out in the past year so it’s definitely not as good as it could be, but not grossly under.

And this trainer just knows me and knows I want to keep going in Dressage. I’d like to one day in the future take this horse 2nd level and she knows that. But, I’m not concerned with getting there anytime in the next 5 years and I think that’s where we diverge.

This baby horse is one of the best horses I’ve ever ridden (even including trained ones lol). He was off the track two weeks before I got him and he settled in adult ammy life almost immediately. We never even really had an “unpacking track life” stage.

I apparently haven’t gotten any new riding (or even full body) pictures since December or I would attach one.

[Larbear]

@LawsofMurph

I apparently haven’t gotten any new riding (or even full body pictures) since December or I would attach one.

Do you have a Pivo? These are great for recording rides and for tracking progress. I use mine a lot since I’m not able to get weekly lessons (it’s more like monthly these days).

[LawsofMurph]

@Larbear

Do you have a Pivo?

I have access to one! But do I remember to drag it out before the horse and I are already walking over to the ring? Never.

[Knights_Mom]

@LawsofMurph

I am having an internal crisis that really shouldn’t bother me.

I have the most adorable 5yo OTTB that has been off the track now for a year and a half. He’s been the perfect gentleman in his transition to sporthorse life and I couldn’t be more proud of him.

For the past year and a half we have been working with my trainer/friend who has experience working with OTTBs and in dressage. It’s been a process just getting me used to riding such a different horse after 18 years with my late old man and a challenge getting me to “dumb down” the cues for the baby. But overall, I am so happy with where we are!

Me and my regular trainer agreed from the get-go that we were not going to rush anything. He was only 4 and just off the track when I got him and we are taking to slow to build him up for a long/sound career. Everything felt great… until I took a lesson with a dressage trainer.

It’s been nearly two years since my last actual dressage lesson due to losing my previous horse and breaking my arm so it was very nice to get a refresher. The current plan is to only lesson with her every once in a while since I’m not seriously showing right now. And the lesson was great! It’s so nice to be reminded of those discipline specific skills that have eroded in the past two years. But, one comment she made has stuck with me and keeps wriggling in my brain. She said, “This horse doesn’t have enough topline and should be a lot farther along at this stage based on what you want to do with him.”

I know, rationally, that I can’t compare a 5 year old who’s been strictly in dressage training with my OTTB but… the comment keeps nagging at me. Are we going too slow? Is what we’re doing going to hinder his development as we go? Or am I thinking too deep into this and he’s hasn’t been off the track all that long for goodness sake?

I guess I just need an outside opinion to stop the nagging thoughts. This is my first young horse and I don’t know what I don’t know.

Ignore them. Every horse has a different journey. You have time. Just do what’s best for your horse. Educate yourself as much as possible so that you can recognize good training from bad.

Look at the parameters for TL. It’s not to be round. It’s acceptance of the bit. Like a hunter (horse) might go.

[Lusoluv]

This is your young horse and you should train him the way you believe is best, not based on a schedule. I’m in a similar position, but opposite scenario:

Bought a purpose-bred 4 yr old WB last fall who looks more like a TB (tall, leggy, slender build). His previous trainer was asking if I’d be riding him in the 5 yr old classes this summer, etc. I said “no”, I was going to take a year to get to know him, continue the basics and let him grow up/fill out. He has such a baby face, my dentist said his upper canine teeth haven’t erupted yet and vet agrees he’s a late bloomer. He recently turned 5, but I’m still treating him like a 4 yr old and my long time trainer agrees 100%. My guy is very sensitive and was starting to grind his teeth with his training rider. His program was prepping him for international auction. Now that he’s mine, I’m taking it slow, but steady and it’ll hopefully pay off in long term mental and physical soundness. He’s no longer grinding his teeth. You see so many horses pushed and it damages their bodies and trust. Getting this horse from an internationally known breeder has been a lifetime dream. I will take the time it takes and not feel bad telling everyone who asks if I’m showing him this year, no, I am not.