The *Real* Clinton Anderson (profanity)

[Alterration]

@Mosey_2003

I think it’s a combination of wanting to feel like you have an advantage or access to insider information - that you know things that “the masses” don’t

Agreed.

This part is what all the cultish trainers and clinicians want to tap into. Everyone is promising a secret and for you to be part of the in-crowd, and because, though we have large brains, we are largely driven by our limbic system so we just EAT that up. Everyone wants to be a part of the in-crowd, whatever that in-crowd is. We are so driven by this identity - I’m a that it causes us to not critically think or take in new information.

Even if it’s used for “good” I find it suspicious. I’ve seen it recently in a local trainer who wouldn’t let her students lesson with others, and she’s trying to create a cult with her content. She’s “kind” and “biomechanically correct” but it gives me the ick.

[OverandOnward]

For the fans who become ‘true fans’ who consistently follow and buy – there are doubtless many explorers who want to learn, but there are also many ‘joiners’ who are joining the group to be in the group.

It’s part of the human mind to want to belong to something, and it’s an urge that has kept the human species alive (although not everyone has the urge in equal quantity).

CA is appealing to people who like feeling that they are joining other like-minded people. His public clinics and demos are rallies for them. There they can gather with the membership, in person. It’s a commonality to share.

It all has to be organized and presented as both a personal and group journey to an emotional moment of triumph. This orchestrated journey, and the climax of it, creates the emotional glue that seals the bond. So it is carefully stage managed and produced, in the videos and membership outreach, as well as at the clinics/demos.

Churches, political rallies, charity appeals, all types of causes do the same thing. It’s a formula and it can work.

I think that yes, it’s a fair guess that people who don’t feel much connection to the big-picture decision-makers around them – even their own breed and discipline organizations – may find it appealing to get on the CA or Parelli bandwagon. Yes, now they know things that many other in their organization don’t know. They are double-joiners of both their foundation organizations and their favorite guru, and are now in the knowledge elite.

Are their horses actually performing any better? Have they solved all of their horse problems? Doesn’t even matter, because now they have a line of talk to carry on with, about their personal horse activity.

And best of all, there is no dependence on gaining recognition by a formal organization. The joining member is the one who decides their status for themselves. It can be a very powerful feeling from joining.

[OverandOnward]

On the other hand – the less showy natural trainers who don’t have t-shirts and shiny-packaged membership organizations and so on … to me, most of them are actually training people how to train their horses (or trying to, depending on the student!).

These days all of the traveling clinic trainers have to do something to keep enough interest to allow them to make a living at this. Especially to survive the pandemic, and beyond. Memberships and online videos. I think many are not making nearly as much money as the public guesses that they are. There can be high expenses involved with the clinics.

Horses don’t always play their assigned role in a public space. I’ve seen times when CA and Parelli struggled with a horse. I’ve never heard either one admit actual defeat (might have missed it, of course).

In Buck’s documentary movie “Buck”, he admitted that the yellow stud colt was untrainable, even by himself. He did try with the horse to suss out the depth of the situation. And came to a sad conclusion about the truth. Instead of attempting to impress the paying audience by pulling out all of the tricks to make it look as if he had made some kind of progress, and then sending the colt home.

Both CA and Parelli have known public moments where a horse was too much for what they had to offer. The ones I saw, they just super-talked their way through it and never really admitted that they had failed.

The scene where Buck, the super-trainer, puts the highly dangerous yellow horse back into the trailer to be taken for behavioral euthanasia recommended by him is one of the most powerful things I’ve ever seen. In any context, not just horses. It was an honest admission of failure, and of truth. It was an admission that there is no magic that solves everything. That sometimes the right decision is the one we never want to have to make. He seemed to be intensely sad for the horse – but he did what had to be done.

[Alterration]

@OverandOnward

And best of all, there is no dependence on gaining recognition by a formal organization. The joining member is the one who decides their status for themselves. It can be a very powerful feeling from joining.

You make a very good point.

That was the NH movement when it began - an alternative to traditional training which was seen as harsh and unkind. Now, NH and most R- training are seen by many as harsh and unkind and it’s the R+ crowd who have a following. NH being marketed “for tough guys” really amazes me now as it was the “tree hugging crowd” who were initially the target audience and we (the global we) derided the followers as being middle aged women who wanted to just do ground work instead of ride.

Now they are the tough ones, and it’s the liberty and pure R+ training methods that capture that same audience. It’s been wild to watch it over the last 40 years.

@OverandOnward

These days all of the traveling clinic trainers have to do something to keep enough interest to allow them to make a living at this. Especially to survive the pandemic, and beyond. Memberships and online videos. I think many are not making nearly as much money as the public guesses that they are. There can be high expenses involved with the clinics.

I don’t think anything is wrong with memberships and online videos, mind you. And trainers are caught in a catch-22 - because good training is just…boring. Good training is really about consistency and watching tiny little timing tweaks. Even some of the personalities who I really enjoy - the content is just friggen dry compared to the showmen. And dry doesn’t sell.

[RhythmNCruise]

@kt

While I’m not the biggest fan of Shelby Dennis/Milestone Equestrian for reasons I’m not going to go into here, a few years ago she put together a pretty horrible CA montage video you can see here , where’s he captured among other things, beating up on literal foals and a blind horse. Don’t watch if you have a weak stomach, I couldn’t even finish.

Yeah, that instance where he hard ties the Secretariat bred mare in the round pen and then runs at her to scare her so she’ll sit back and fight was where I decided I was done with him. What a fool.

I’ve also always thought he (and others like him) have to confuse the hell out of horses. One one hand, the horse is supposed to stand there while he cracks a whip over its head and next to it repeatedly and not flinch, but that same horse is also supposed to move its feet immediately when he points his hand, and if it doesn’t, he’s going to come running at it with that same whip and expect it to run for its life. Or like the narrator in the video points out…he rushes at a horse to make it move away and then snatches on it for…doing what he told it to do.

It’s just so stupid. It’s basically picking a fight with a horse for no other reason than to convince it that it won’t win the fight. I’ve seen other jackass trainers do this and brag about it. They call it “finding the holes” and say they’ll purposely provoke the horse so they can “fix” what they find.

Anyway, and I apologize if this rubs anyone the wrong way, but I loathe reining almost as much as Western pleasure for the amount of abusive training practices used in the discipline. Reiners are hard on their horses, and ego maniacs seem to be attracted to sport. “Let’s see how fast I can make this horse spin and how far I can make it slide…all while it keeps its head and tail tucked like a whipped dog.” That’s what reining has turned into.

[OverandOnward]

@Alterration

NH being marketed “for tough guys” really amazes me now as it was the “tree hugging crowd” who were initially the target audience and we (the global we) derided the followers as being middle aged women who wanted to just do ground work instead of ride.

In the last 10 to 15 years or so there has been a mystifying (to me) transfer/reversal of social dynamics on many fronts. That reverses decades of social assumptions that everyone thought were god-given nature, in the days those assumptions were the natural order. Across almost every aspect of American life, from personal to business to … everything else. Including horses!!!

I had also assumed that as public perceptions matured, public perceptions would enjoy the maturity and not regress – ever. Was I ever wrong about that.

@Alterration

Good training is really about consistency and watching tiny little timing tweaks. Even some of the personalities who I really enjoy - the content is just friggen dry compared to the showmen. And dry doesn’t sell.

The one who has helped me by far the most – online, never seen him in person – is Carson James. On first look, his youth, lack of polish and production, and broad accent, came across to me as “what a yahoo”. But he is truly the real deal who has learned from the others before him, and addresses a very broad range of behavior down to the root.

His public videos are very trimmed. Seeing the membership-version full length ones – horse training isn’t quick! And the horse hasn’t read the script! Carson is all about waiting for and then rewarding the tiny changes, and building. But – you get to see it in real life. And say ‘yeah that’s like my horse, ok this is what to try next, and how long it might take and how patient I need to be’.

I think the more professionally produced trainers actually give an incorrect impression of how their methods work, in real life. The video shows results in 5, maybe 15 minutes – by assiduously trimming what happened in real life.

But if a follower trying the same method isn’t getting results in the first 5 to 10 minutes, they may conclude that their horse just isn’t getting this. Won’t get this. Something is wrong! And not the rider, because they are following what the video showed. Unfortunately they have a very incorrect expectation of youtube-length training, not IRL training.

Below, Carson wanderingly explains that ‘balking’ (he calls it ‘locking up’) is the root of a lot of other behaviors. Because pressing it can lead to explosions of rearing (“rarin” as he says), bucking, spooking, bolting, etc., a lot of things clicked for me. From there he addresses how to start at that root, from the ground (keeping the feet moving), to work toward a better citizen overall, on the ground and under saddle. He’s done videos that are equally helpful root-corrections of things like constantly speeding up, being difficult to slow down, etc.

His fixes are not immediate, he explains a progression. In one session and over multiple sessions. Especially for the membership who can see 10 long but progressive videos on training a specific behavior.

These two are greatly trimmed down for the public viewer to show progression … and if you aren’t into it, even these trimmed version are the definition of ‘long’ and ‘dry’! When is the horse going to learn … ???

Very helpful but not competitive with the productions of CA and Parelli. In one of these at least Carson is wearing his own brand shirt. His earliest ones – no branding to be seen.

Early version – no branding – who is this guy???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FafZ5vnwewI

Well at least he has a brand shirt on this time … still being himself …

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWXacD-iJSo&t=1s

CJ videos really helped me learn how to identify tiny changes. And how to urge the wanted behavior by peacefully but insistently ‘bothering’ the unwanted behavior. And rewarding the wanted behavior. Carson got his start working on a Montana ranch, so much of this is from the tradition that informed Buck et. al. He does not claim ever that all of this is original to him. He’s just showing what works for specific issues.

[Alterration]

@OverandOnward

I had also assumed that as public perceptions matured, public perceptions would enjoy the maturity and not regress – ever. Was I ever wrong about that.

I feel you there - big time.

@OverandOnward

The one who has helped me by far the most – online, never seen him in person – is Carson James. On first look, his youth, lack of polish and production, and broad accent, came across to me as “what a yahoo”. But he is truly the real deal who has learned from the others before him, and addresses a very broad range of behavior down to the root.

I like Carson James, as well as Bruce Sandifer and Jeff Sanders for that Californio style training, which is where most of the NH stuff came from…which of course had it’s roots in the Vaquero tradition - which I’m enjoying learning from at this moment with Manuel Jorge De Oliveira’s videos as well as Centauro Doma Vaquera (Mieke Hylkema).

Jeff Sanders has a video series that I really enjoyed of dealing with an untouched older spicy horse. It was a lot of watching paint dry - no miracles - but I found the interplay fascinating and it was not a heavily polished/edited sequence.

[SinMiedo]

I ran across Ryan Rose and so far I’ve been very impressed. His videos are definitely trimmed for time, but it’s pretty evident that he’s working slowly and incrementally as they’re often split into multiple parts. Several videos have helped me reframe issues I’ve had and approach them from a different angle.
I also really enjoy the way he’s able to explain things to the owners. It’s definitely nothing novel, technique wise, but based on what I’ve seen I wouldn’t hesitate to send him a horse if the need ever arose.

[Lunabear1988]

I can think of two Clinton Anderson followers that I know IRL. One is an older lady who is very open that she has fear issues. She’s all about horse welfare and very kind so shocked to see her start to follow CA but I guess she wants to feel empowered?

Another one has one of the least trustworthy horses I’ve ever met (and I know MANY people agree.) He is well trained I guess but he definitely has an air of “aggressive to humans” about him. Whether she was drawn to CA because this horse has the temperament or if the horse developed that attitude and unease around people because of the CA training, I’m not sure. I strongly suspect the latter. My young daughter pointed out how that person seems to not have any attachment at all to her animals. They are definitely livestock. Even the dogs.

[Spudsmyguy]

@Lunabear1988

My young daughter pointed out how that person seems to not have any attachment at all to her animals. They are definitely livestock. Even the dogs.

I know someone exactly like that. Although the horses seem to be well cared for, they are simply livestock to her, including her dogs. She wants to ride in the mountains and her horses provide that. I’ve never seen her pat, talk to, give treats to any of them in the 30 years I’ve known her.

[ParadoxFarm]

@Spudsmyguy

I’ve never seen her pat, talk to, give treats to any of them in the 30 years I’ve known her.

In my head, I’m thinking, how is that even possible! But everyone is different I guess. If anything, I need to stop feeding so many treats, haha. But mine are well-behaved during treating. And I not only talk to the horses, I sing to them (albeit off-key!). And the dogs, they’re little people, so there’s that…

[Lunabear1988]

Yeah this person’s care is not the greatest either. Honestly if she’s actively showing, then it’s good care. If she’s not? Then who knows how long they go without seeing a farrier or anything. It’s like her interest waxes and wanes wildly. But some people are like that. It’s just different.

[RhythmNCruise]

@ParadoxFarm

In my head, I’m thinking, how is that even possible! But everyone is different I guess. If anything, I need to stop feeding so many treats, haha. But mine are well-behaved during treating. And I not only talk to the horses, I sing to them (albeit off-key!). And the dogs, they’re little people, so there’s that…

I take care of a friend’s mare who lives with my gelding. Today is her (the mare’s) birthday. I know this because said friend posted about it on Facebook along with last year’s video of my singing “Happy Birthday” to her mare and feeding her treats.

The dog? The dog is my child. Period. I tell him daily that he’s the most perfect thing in the whole world. And yet? Still humble. Such a good boy.

[RMJacobs]

The woman from whom I bought my Hackney pony was like that. I asked her what his barn name was. She said “I just call them all Horse.” It was clear he was just aching for affection. The woman’s daughter said she tried to give him scritches and hugs when she could, but that wasn’t very often. When I got him home, he was an attention sponge, and gave the nicest hugs. He was always very sweet on the ground. Driving him was a whole other thing, though.

[OverandOnward]

@Spudsmyguy

I know someone exactly like that. Although the horses seem to be well cared for, they are simply livestock to her, including her dogs. She wants to ride in the mountains and her horses provide that. I’ve never seen her pat, talk to, give treats to any of them in the 30 years I’ve known her.

Some horses (some animals, really) don’t know anything else. They think that’s the world as it is, if they spent a lifetime under such care.

I also knew someone like that, once. A very horsey friend from her barn, who was around her and her horses often, as they both rode often, told me that he was ok with her utilitarian attitude with her horses, because she was consistent, and fair enough. He said that the horses were ok because they knew what to expect and how to stay on her good side.

He felt that her consistency was better for her animals than owners who were more treaty, but also confused their horses regularly. He was in the middle – being consistent in expectations and ask, and also rewarding and enjoying his horses.

My personal experience is that horses can be more giving, and share more information, when they have a more rounded relationship with their human. For me riding, handling and just being around them can be far more interesting, if there is more depth to the relationship. If I get to know them as unique personalities. But I don’t think that utilitarian lady saw any value in that.

I thought she missed out on what great characters her horses truly were. She didn’t seem to think that was a miss, at all, as long as they did as she directed. And her horses didn’t know there was anything to miss as they had never experienced it.

The utilitarian attitude is prevalent in certain horse communities. Maybe the question is how fair people are being with their horses, however they approach them?

[Dr_Doolittle]

This tangent reminds me of a mare I knew when my DH and I were trading barn chores for board reduction (this was about 28 years ago; I had a young unraced TB gelding that I boarded at the facility) - the mare’s name was Wilma.

Around the corner from this boarding barn was another barn - this one was a “rental barn” that catered to people (mostly men) who wanted to rent a horse to “YeeHa” around on; there was ride out and these guys would drag themselves onto the rental horses, kick them into a canter and “run” them through the fields and trails. When I hacked my horse back there I would encounter a lot of these guys on foot (often hobbling) having fallen off the (smart) rental horses - who subsequently walked back to the barn without their riders.

Wilma was “retired” from that life, and moved to our little boarding barn.

My DH and I took care of the poor sweet old girl - she had a swayback and was very ribby, got extra hay and attention. I felt awful for her because her flat “affect” was unlike most other horses I had known - and I had taught at two lesson barns, so was familiar with the underappreciated lesson horses (I always gave them extra affection) - but this mare was just “shut down.” No expressiveness, no ability to interact with humans - didn’t even know how to take a treat. It was like her spirit had been broken.

My DH and I tried to give her affection and were loving to her, but it was like she didn’t understand.

Poor creature. THIS is what a lifetime of “users” can do to a horse’s temperament and emotional capacity.

[RhythmNCruise]

What’s sad is there are some horses that are definitely born with inquisitive, personable dispositions. I’ve known enough foals from birth to have seen this. My late heart horse was the first foal I ever saw born. He had a difficult birth, so had human hands on him literally before he was fully delivered. Once out, he struggled more and had to have help standing and nursing. Eventually he was good, and from that day on, he would nicker to every human he saw and go over to them for scritches and love. He grew into a big ol’ moose of a sweet gelding. I owned him his entire life and he was without a doubt the most people-loving, gentle, delightful fellow.

My current gelding was very people-oriented as a newborn foal. I remember him at just days old following people around, leaning against them and loving all the hugs and scritches and attention. He was like a lap dog. But after he was weaned (his dam foundered and died, forcing him to be weaned early) he was thrown in a back paddock with an old round bale and pretty much ignored for a year. I bought him as a yearling and not only was he malnourished and wormy, he also had zero interest in human beings. He’d lost his friendly, outgoing personality. He wasn’t mean or anything like that, just 100% uninterested. His eyes were vacant, he looked past you instead of at you, and he just looked…sad.

It didn’t take too long to get him back. Some food, some attention, some love…and his personality came back out again. He turns 17 next year and he’s a big ol’ love bug.

Horses are social creatures. They are curious and smart. Seeing them shut down with that vacant expression in their eyes is so sad.

[Mara]

@Ghazzu

The etymologies that propose the origin as an acronym are myths.

100%

The widely accepted academic etymology of “fuck” is that it’s from the German “ficken”, meaning “to strike”.

[Moss]

I absolutely love Jeff Sanders-- and Pat Puckett-- who are probably my two favorite trainers at the moment. If you go into their methods without knowing what they’re doing, it is sort of like watching paint dry. But the more you learn, the more you figure out those subtle changes in the horse and how to get those changes.

Puckett is a lot of fun to watch because he also tells stories, and he’s pretty funny. He is also incredibly patient, and he emphasizes learning patience when working with horses.

[Alterration]

Oh agreed! I forgot about Puckett.

I love watching it, it just doesn’t draw the crowds. But I also love watching horses communicate with each other and that can be incredibly subtle.