My main experience with Lyons was when he was giving a seminar on RFD-TV and he started talking, they brought a fat light grey yearling colt in the round pen he was in and he kept it running around while talking forever.
After a while colt, winded, would lay down and Lyons kept getting him up as soon as he noticed and running again,
On top of it, colt was limping all along.
After a long while of that, I quit watching and never again wanted to see anything else by him.
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Eek. Yeah, even the āgood onesā might have some lapses in judgment or methods that just donāt seem like anything Iād want to follow. Running a yearling until itās trying to lay down isā¦yikes. And Buck backing his mare like thatā¦ehhā¦no thanks.
Iāve done stupid things, we all have. But I remember even as a teenager, when Iād lose my temper with my horse or do something that in hindsight I realized probably wasnāt fair to himā¦Iād literally lose sleep over it and try to do better from then on. Hopefully thatās the case with any of us when we make mistakes.
Iām afraid Anderson probably never admits that he makes mistakes though. Seems like the type thatāll blame the horse first and himself never. Maybe not though. Itād be nice to think heās not always as much of a jerk as he seems to be.
Iāll take Steve Young over any of them, really. If he gets ugly with horses, Iāve never seen it. His āfirming upā with them is still pretty mild. Heās just got such incredible timing and patience, and he understands the horseās mindset and why it is behaving like it is. I love how he says the horse is just trying to do what it thinks it has to in order to āsurvive the day.ā Thatās really a good way to look at pretty much everything a horse does āwrong.ā There may be rare exceptions, but theyāre reactive prey animals, so many of their problematic behaviors are just survival instincts kicking in.
I also like Tristan Tucker, but he gets long-winded and kind of confusing in some of his explanations to me. Still, I like his approach of helping the horse learn to find its own relaxation. Plus, heās funny (at least to me).
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I was lucky enough to go out to CO 20+ years ago and spend some time with Mark and his team. The time I spent there fundamentally changed how I trained and taught. I would do it again in a heartbeat if I could.
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I will say, Buck was still calm during the backing. But I just thought maybe letting it go and returning to it later or something would have been better, imo. But maybe I was missing the point or something. But the horse seemed like it was really frustrated and I donāt think it was worth it. I still following some of his techniques and stuff though.
No one is perfect and I do think doing things in front of a crowd for lots of money clouds decisions for most people at least occasionally.
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I think it is a mistake to judge anyone on just one error. Their body of work is what counts. And sometimes it is the infrequency of their errors that helps prove the worth of the whole.
Totally different setting ā as an employee, there is nothing more frustrating than when management focuses in on one minor, correctable mistake, and that becomes a distraction that misses a sterling body of work for a long period.
But when people are presenting themselves as teachers, mentors and coaches, that is what their audience tends to do. There is a tendency to over-inflate the importance of one incidence to the point that it is a distraction from the value of the whole. Even though we already know that everyone makes mistakes.
Is the error correctable? Is it an error that the person makes over and over?
Sometimes we are missing the context of what came before, as well. Or we didnāt understand the rationale of the correction. Or it was truly a mistake that would have been better to avoid. But simply that it happened doesnāt make it important, to me, rather, the total effect of the mistake on the horseās future, and how fixable it is, is what I think of for context.
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I like him as well.
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I donāt think accepting an obviously lame horse for a demo horse is a rare mistake, but an abysmal one.
Someone there if not Lyons himself should have spoken up and send horse back.
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My trainer told me a story of one time when Pat P was doing a clinic and needed a horse to do the trailer-loading segment. My trainer let him use a young horse who already knew how to load (this was Patās request). Well, Pat P told the crowd he had never loaded before and continued to āwork his magicā. The horse came back with loading issues.
Some training method. 
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I just went to youtube and found a video of Steve Young. Couldnāt finish it, it was slow going and disjointed. He kept jumping from one thing to another and the woman running the camera needs to be quiet. So much chattering!
So while it looks like he has good training methods, he isnāt one Iād wade through the chaff to watch for the good.
Editing to add a video I found while looking for the other guy. This dude is dealing with a dangerous horse. Iām not sure if heās smart or dumb with his training. Iām going to look for more to see what happens with this stallion. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zW9ZujA8MNo&pp=0gcJCU8JAYcqIYzv
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Quite possibly dumb. Why is he petting him so hard in sensitive areas? Then the horse says no, so then he runs the horse to teach him a lesson, whixh is probably that he doesnt like this human anymore! No tact or feel with his ātouching aidsā and maybe that horse has ulcers.
I found part 2 with this stallion and after two weeks heās got the horse accepting touch and not reacting to the whip. But dang youād think he could have accomplished that without turning himself into a target.
I went to audit a Buck clinic once. He demonstrated, using a rope around someoneās leg and having them walk a circle around him, how the location of that leg during its path affects how the aids go through. If you ask for a step while the leg is on the ground, you canāt influence it. Iād always known that, but seeing it demonstrated like that really made it stick in my head more. When I got into dressage years later, remembering that demo put me in the mindset of asking at the correct moments, especially since I mostly deal with green horses and that makes such a huge difference in how easily they pick things up.
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I donāt think anyone who has watched CA for more than a few moments is surprised by this.
I went to see him when he arrived in our city, not because Iām an acolyte, but because I was curious. The arena, which is literally never packed, was PACKED. They actually had to make the ring smaller to fit more stands in so people could see and it was standing room only.
The training was meh, nothing miraculous, and while there were some good parts, there were also some parts where I felt that his assistant trainer had gotten the horse in trouble, and had to get out of it but there was no easy way to do that would stay on brand since the sell is āfix your horseā.
And for the record - I think he is very very hard on horses. I think a lot of what he does is rather awful. There was a lot that I felt was clearly overfacing the young horses, and quick fixes, as we all know, usually have consequences.
But I donāt think Clintonās appeal to his masses is about horse training. Itās about being a sort of person that is counter to the ācorrectā crowd. I daresay heās tapped into the same thing that a certain other set of people has tapped into (which I will not mention for fear of getting the thread shut down).
Clinton Anderson WORKED that crowd. He told stories. He got them riled up with catchphrases. That was tremendously effective. Like - creepily effective. Anything where people chant and cheer like that kind of freaks me out (outside of sporting events, and even they are a little creepy in a coliseum sort of way).
In terms of the story, while itās obnoxious, itās totally on brand. CA makes money being obnoxious.
I think the more interesting question is - why does it work? I donāt think itās Clinton leading people down that path so much as it is tapping into something his audience wants to feel - because thatās how marketing works - pulling into something thatās deep within us, that we already believe and channeling it into brand. CAās clinic taught me one thing, and thatās that even (or maybe especially) in the horse world there are a LOT of people that want to feel that angry justified feeling. It is interesting, in an academic sense, and fairly terrifying.
CA has great brand managers. Buck also has a brand, as does Lyons, but they arenāt as strong because they havenāt figured out how to package things quite like CA did. He has figured out the branding thing spectacularly well.
I bought his membership, because I spend money on all the memberships and Iām endlessly curious - and in addition to his very well broken down (from a learning perspective) courses, he publishes an absolutely gorgeous ābookā thing every few months (I think itās every quarter) that is hole-punched so that you can keep them as reference material. Itās brilliant. Heavy duty cardstock covers - the whole lot.
For the record, I pitch mine and donāt always read them until I have absolutely nothing else to read in the house. LOL But - I see why people value it who do follow him.
I have to admire him from a marketing perspective - even though I vehemently disagree with him. And so - bottom line - that obnoxious story did exactly what he wanted it to do. It kept him relevant, even if we hate him. Weāre in an attention economy and he has mastered the marketing side.
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Just wanted to say thanks for this very thoughtful post.
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I think itās a combination of wanting to feel like you have an advantage or access to insider information - that you know things that āthe massesā donāt, and wanting permission to be a bully. They really eat up things like, āYou donāt want to be like those sissies that beg their horses to do things, youāre the leader! You tell them when to jump and they ask, āHow high?ā!ā Thereās a demographic that really wants to hear that and feel like theyāre in the right and theyāre bigger/better/faster/stronger/smarter than the rest of us plebes.
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This is exactly why the people I know follow him.
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While Iām not the biggest fan of Shelby Dennis/Milestone Equestrian for reasons Iām not going to go into here, a few years ago she put together a pretty horrible CA montage video you can see here, whereās he captured among other things, beating up on literal foals and a blind horse. Donāt watch if you have a weak stomach, I couldnāt even finish.
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Agreed.
This part is what all the cultish trainers and clinicians want to tap into. Everyone is promising a secret and for you to be part of the in-crowd, and because, though we have large brains, we are largely driven by our limbic system so we just EAT that up. Everyone wants to be a part of the in-crowd, whatever that in-crowd is. We are so driven by this identity - Iām a that it causes us to not critically think or take in new information.
Even if itās used for āgoodā I find it suspicious. Iāve seen it recently in a local trainer who wouldnāt let her students lesson with others, and sheās trying to create a cult with her content. Sheās ākindā and ābiomechanically correctā but it gives me the ick.
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For the fans who become ātrue fansā who consistently follow and buy ā there are doubtless many explorers who want to learn, but there are also many ājoinersā who are joining the group to be in the group.
Itās part of the human mind to want to belong to something, and itās an urge that has kept the human species alive (although not everyone has the urge in equal quantity).
CA is appealing to people who like feeling that they are joining other like-minded people. His public clinics and demos are rallies for them. There they can gather with the membership, in person. Itās a commonality to share.
It all has to be organized and presented as both a personal and group journey to an emotional moment of triumph. This orchestrated journey, and the climax of it, creates the emotional glue that seals the bond. So it is carefully stage managed and produced, in the videos and membership outreach, as well as at the clinics/demos.
Churches, political rallies, charity appeals, all types of causes do the same thing. Itās a formula and it can work.
I think that yes, itās a fair guess that people who donāt feel much connection to the big-picture decision-makers around them ā even their own breed and discipline organizations ā may find it appealing to get on the CA or Parelli bandwagon. Yes, now they know things that many other in their organization donāt know. They are double-joiners of both their foundation organizations and their favorite guru, and are now in the knowledge elite.
Are their horses actually performing any better? Have they solved all of their horse problems? Doesnāt even matter, because now they have a line of talk to carry on with, about their personal horse activity.
And best of all, there is no dependence on gaining recognition by a formal organization. The joining member is the one who decides their status for themselves. It can be a very powerful feeling from joining. 
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On the other hand ā the less showy natural trainers who donāt have t-shirts and shiny-packaged membership organizations and so on ā¦ to me, most of them are actually training people how to train their horses (or trying to, depending on the student!).
These days all of the traveling clinic trainers have to do something to keep enough interest to allow them to make a living at this. Especially to survive the pandemic, and beyond. Memberships and online videos. I think many are not making nearly as much money as the public guesses that they are. There can be high expenses involved with the clinics.
Horses donāt always play their assigned role in a public space. Iāve seen times when CA and Parelli struggled with a horse. Iāve never heard either one admit actual defeat (might have missed it, of course).
In Buckās documentary movie āBuckā, he admitted that the yellow stud colt was untrainable, even by himself. He did try with the horse to suss out the depth of the situation. And came to a sad conclusion about the truth. Instead of attempting to impress the paying audience by pulling out all of the tricks to make it look as if he had made some kind of progress, and then sending the colt home.
Both CA and Parelli have known public moments where a horse was too much for what they had to offer. The ones I saw, they just super-talked their way through it and never really admitted that they had failed.
The scene where Buck, the super-trainer, puts the highly dangerous yellow horse back into the trailer to be taken for behavioral euthanasia recommended by him is one of the most powerful things Iāve ever seen. In any context, not just horses. It was an honest admission of failure, and of truth. It was an admission that there is no magic that solves everything. That sometimes the right decision is the one we never want to have to make. He seemed to be intensely sad for the horse ā but he did what had to be done.
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