The Saddle Should Bridge

[GraceLikeRain]

Has anyone else been told this by a fitter? More specifically, “on a horse with a very curved back who is lacking topline you want a light bridge to allow space for the back to come up”.

If you do a belly lift this space is filled. On one hand, the idea of leaving space for the back to come up makes sense. If you fit to the dip and the back comes up, you’ve got more pressure right under the rider’s seat.

On the other, if you have a horse who is lacking topline for whatever reason, is it reasonable to expect the back to be as lifted as a belly lift for the duration of the ride? If not, then don’t you end up with four points of pressure because pressure is not evenly distributed from front to back?

[kashmere]

I haven’t personally been told this, but I have watched a rep/fitter give this advice to a barnmate. Her horse had recurring back soreness. She switched fitters (and ultimately brand of saddle) and… voila, no bridging, no back pain, and a nicely developing top line.

That’s one second-hand, anecdotal experience. Take it however you will!

[TequilaMockingbird]

I can what they’d mean in theory but how do you decide what’s the right amount of bridging? Because, as you said, I could not ever seen a horse lifting it’s back like it does in a belly lift for the majority of the ride.

So the times that the belly is not lifted enough to negate the bridging, I’d think the saddle has the potential to make the horse sore. And a horse with a sore back is not going to want to lift its back. And the less it lifts the back, the more sore it becomes from the bridging saddle, in a feedback loop.

Maybe having a very slight bridging might be ok in a high level horse that is extremely consistent and strong in engaging the back up. Basically a horse that uses its back in a position close to that produced by a belly lift for the majority of the ride, if such a horse exists… I certainly wouldn’t want a bridging saddle on my horse, no matter how slight.

[Obsidian_Fire]

@GraceLikeRain

On the other, if you have a horse who is lacking topline for whatever reason, is it reasonable to expect the back to be as lifted as a belly lift for the duration of the ride? If not, then don’t you end up with four points of pressure because pressure is not evenly distributed from front to back?

That would be like asking you to hold the hardest part of a sit-up for an hour, with a weight attached.

No. Fit the saddle as needed “right now” and make adjustments as the horse develops.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

Is this a spring tree? Would the saddle flex once your weight is in the saddle?

[beowulf]

Yes.

I was told by a Stubben rep that it is A-OK for my saddle to bridge and that fitters reflock with this in mind. I was told this when I had her out to reflock a saddle that was bridging. She had seen it six months before and it was fine - It didn’t bridge like this when I first got it - I suspect breaking in and the wool being padded down contributed. This was a custom saddle that I purchased by her specs.

I am not sure I follow the logic.

I posted about it on the Stubben FB page asking for clarification and was told the same thing by another Stubben rep: the bridging is okay because they want a place for the horse’s back to go when they lift their back.

The only problem is, I have noticed my horse is not likely to lift his back/soften his back in the first place, because the saddle is uncomfortable for him because the pressure isn’t evenly dispersed! In particular, I think it is causing extra pressure in the hollows behind his withers, especially when I am sitting in the tack.

Not happy about it. I emailed Stubben asking for clarification and whoever was handling my case dropped the ball. Haven’t heard from them in months, and I left a few voice-mails seeking clarification too.

It’s a lovely saddle and I really like it for a different horse, but purchased it specifically for this horse, specifically guided by a Stubben rep/(who is also a fitter), only to have the horse not like the saddle down the road. The first 8 months or so he moved much better, but in recent months (coinciding exactly when the saddle started to really bridge) he has become sore over his shoulder and back that my chiro believes is from the saddle. He’s seen regularly by her and these are new, so… Not even sure where to go with this. I can’t stomach the idea of buying another custom saddle. When I had the rep out again, because the horse was still sore over his back, she then placed blame on the girth…

Well I bought the girth she told me to, and he’s gotten even more sore… He’s such a good boy, he doesn’t buck - but I can tell he is unhappy when the saddle is placed on his back even though he doesn’t pin his ears or swish his tail. So he’s been on vacation while we sort this out. I even had the vet out to rule out it wasn’t him – rads are exactly the same as last year, and no changes…

I suppose in hindsight I should not be surprised by this. Saddle fitting seems more and more about who can huck what brand saddle, and less and less about what actually works for the horse.

What I can tell you, unequivocally – is that that method of fitting above, is not working for my horse.

[beowulf]

Yes. I have a Stubben Zaria that I purchased based on a Stubben fitter/rep’s suggestion two years ago. It originally did not bridge at all - but after a year, I had her back out to look at it because it was bridging. I was told that it is okay for my saddle to bridge and that Stubben fitters reflock with this in mind. The rep/fitter made no adjustments to my saddle.

I posted about it on the Saddle Fitting FB page asking for clarification and was told the same thing by another Stubben rep: the bridging is okay because they want a place for the horse’s back to go when they lift their back. However, several fitters also chimed in and said that is not acceptable. Which to believe?

The problem with this logic is I have noticed my horse is not likely to lift his back/soften his back in the first place, because the saddle is uncomfortable for him because the pressure isn’t evenly dispersed! In particular, I think it is causing extra pressure in the hollows behind his withers, especially when I am sitting in the tack.

I emailed Stubben asking for clarification given all of this conflicting advice, and the fact I have a $5,000 custom saddle I can’t ride in… and whoever was handling my case dropped the ball. Haven’t heard from them in months, and I left a few voice-mails seeking clarification too.

It’s a lovely saddle and I really like it for a different horse… but it isn’t working for my guy. It worked great the first 8 or so months, but now it seems we’re back where we started. I had the rep look at him again because I still wasn’t sold the bridging was okay… and she told me it was the girth. So I got the girth she told me to get, and the symptoms have gotten worse. I can tell he is unhappy when the saddle is placed on his back even though he doesn’t pin his ears or swish his tail. He’s been on vacation while we sort this out.

I even had the vet out to rule out it wasn’t him last month --his back rads are exactly the same as two years ago, no changes…

I suppose in hindsight I should not be surprised by this. Saddle fitting seems more and more about who can huck what brand saddle, and less and less about what actually works for the horse.

What I can tell you, unequivocally – is that that method of fitting above, is not working for my horse.

[netg]

I disagree with actual bridging. However, the point of contact at the middle may not be as full as contact front and back to allow motion. I have seen saddle fitters do belly lifts to tell - what you want to avoid is rocking when lifted, but bridging when dropped is always a bad thing.

[Scribbler]

@beowulf

Yes. I have a Stubben Zaria that I purchased based on a Stubben fitter/rep’s suggestion two years ago. It originally did not bridge at all - but after a year, I had her back out to look at it because it was bridging. I was told that it is okay for my saddle to bridge and that Stubben fitters reflock with this in mind. The rep/fitter made no adjustments to my saddle.

I posted about it on the Saddle Fitting FB page asking for clarification and was told the same thing by another Stubben rep: the bridging is okay because they want a place for the horse’s back to go when they lift their back. However, several fitters also chimed in and said that is not acceptable. Which to believe?

The problem with this logic is I have noticed my horse is not likely to lift his back/soften his back in the first place, because the saddle is uncomfortable for him because the pressure isn’t evenly dispersed! In particular, I think it is causing extra pressure in the hollows behind his withers, especially when I am sitting in the tack.

I emailed Stubben asking for clarification given all of this conflicting advice, and the fact I have a $5,000 custom saddle I can’t ride in… and whoever was handling my case dropped the ball. Haven’t heard from them in months, and I left a few voice-mails seeking clarification too.

It’s a lovely saddle and I really like it for a different horse… but it isn’t working for my guy. It worked great the first 8 or so months, but now it seems we’re back where we started. I had the rep look at him again because I still wasn’t sold the bridging was okay… and she told me it was the girth. So I got the girth she told me to get, and the symptoms have gotten worse. I can tell he is unhappy when the saddle is placed on his back even though he doesn’t pin his ears or swish his tail. He’s been on vacation while we sort this out.

I even had the vet out to rule out it wasn’t him last month --his back rads are exactly the same as two years ago, no changes…

I suppose in hindsight I should not be surprised by this. Saddle fitting seems more and more about who can huck what brand saddle, and less and less about what actually works for the horse.

What I can tell you, unequivocally – is that that method of fitting above, is not working for my horse.

The single only place I have heard the idea that the saddle should bridge is on the Facebook feed from a particular Stubben saddle rep. I was dubious about that and your post confirms that it is both a Stubben thing and a Bad Idea.

The problem with bridging is that it puts way more pressure on the places the saddle does touch. And can make pressure points on the withers and lower back.

There is no huge problem with well fitted saddles hindering a horse from raising it’s back. I watch horses at liberty and being longed and they do raise their backs in correct movement. I think that the fact the girth goes where it does allows the back to rise and the saddle to rude with it as much as possible under the weight of the rider.

I did have a saddle fitting challenge last year on an older mare whose back was dropping. The solution was a 6 pocket sheepskin shim. She was a borrowed horse, her primary saddle didn’t fit me, flocking something to perfection wasn’t an option and honestly I think her back was curvy enough no tree would be a perfect match.

Her back absolutely showed improvement after riding for a few months with the shims.

I am always very dubious about saddle reps who claim that violating the tenets of good saddle fit is OK because honestly it’s all in the service of selling as much of their brand as possible even if it’s not a good match for that horse.

Schleese has something similar where they show photos of white saddle pads with those tell tale brushing marks and explain it away by saying something or other that it’s not really bridging.

Yup.

[sheltona01]

I hear this sometime from my clients who have heard it from other fitters. So I asked a vet about how a horse lifts. These are my own words and not technical. The belly lifts is not how a horse carries itself under saddle. When the horse lifts in a belly lift, most of the lift is in the lumbar area of the spine and also in how the horse shifts it hips. The thoracic part of the spine actually has very limited movement in the joints of that part of the spine.

I agree with the other poster who said that most of the horses who have a bridge in their saddle have sore backs and/or do not want to lift. I would be asking why the bridge has developed. Is it because the horse’s back has changed or has the wool shifted. If it is a very tiny bridge, it possibly could be corrected with flocking. Having said this, horse’s do not read the saddle fitting book. I try to start at an ideal fit, but sometimes the horse has other ideas. I always try to listen to the horse.

[GraceLikeRain]

Thank you everyone. Seriously, thank you so much. This reinforces what always seemed like sound logic to me.Once a professional starts talking, it can be hard to sift through the language and air of expertise to identify whether the core concepts are logical. Once someone starts talking about a wood laminated spring tree and how xyz flocking does all of these special things I feel out of my element.

This area has a number of independent fitters who also “by the way” also rep for a specific company. However, truly independent fitters appear to be as scarce as hen’s teeth in my area. It is disappointing though because this came from the only true independent fitter I’d found. The bridge was enough that you could comfortably slide a hand and could see some daylight without a pad. A $3,000 mistake narrowly avoided and unfortunately, I don’t know how much I can trust their evaluation on other saddles after this experience.

[Scribbler]

You can see how much a given horse lifts his back by working him correctly on the longe. You will see that a horse carrying himself correctly does lift and fill the back a little bit but it’s nothing like the arch of belly lift triggered by the finger nail of your equine RMT!

It’s obvious that a correctly fitted saddle doesn’t prevent a horse from lifting his back in movement.
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

[DunByMistake]

@Scribbler

The single only place I have heard the idea that the saddle should bridge is on the Facebook feed from a particular Stubben saddle rep. I was dubious about that and your post confirms that it is both a Stubben thing and a Bad Idea.

I know the saddle rep you are talking about and she is talking about fitting flexible trees in any brand - not advocating that bridging is normal or ok. In that post, she specifically says if you have a flexible tree saddle and it is not girthed up, it is normal to see some bridging. Once girthed up, the gap disappears. It is not a Stubben thing necessarily.

I have 2 Stubbens. Neither have flexible tree and neither bridge. Both have been fit by independent fitter.

[beowulf]

@DunByMistake

I know the saddle rep you are talking about and she is talking about fitting flexible trees in any brand - not advocating that bridging is normal or ok. In that post, she specifically says if you have a flexible tree saddle and it is not girthed up, it is normal to see some bridging. Once girthed up, the gap disappears. It is not a Stubben thing necessarily.

I have 2 Stubbens. Neither have flexible tree and neither bridge. Both have been fit by independent fitter.

This is more a comment directed towards the person that told you this, and not you…

but IME… the bridging doesn’t “disappear” - it is still there. It is just no longer visible, because the saddle-pad and the horse’s skin is relatively flexible and hide the gap/open space. The pressure distribution is still mostly the same, save adding the girth just makes the pressure points dig deeper into the horse.

I have the sore horse, and the saddle-pad marks to prove it… Oh and… one thing that the bridging saddle did that no other saddle has done… it rubbed the fur off of my gelding’s back under where the cantle is… Never seen that before.

The core logic surrounding that premise isn’t sound, because adding more pressure to something doesn’t make the pressure disperse better. It just adds more pressure to the pressure points… The more I listen to saddle fitters, the more I realize it’s a good thing they’re not physicists!!

[sheltona01]

A few of us actually do know a lot about physics. I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering which is basically a problem solving degree in physics.

I think the main problem is that there is so much misinformation out there about saddle fitting that is taken as truth from even well respected sources that actually is not true. Plus some of the saddle fitting training is really dubious. It is really hard to sort it out and it is repeated over and over again. It is also really hard to go against the grain and say something because people get so upset and verbally attacked you.

[beowulf]

@sheltona01

A few of us actually do know a lot about physics. I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering which is basically a problem solving degree in physics.

That comment wasn’t directed at you :yes: AFAIK, you weren’t the one advocating bridges/pressure points being okay.

[fordtraktor]

A bridge is definitely a no for me. That said, I have had decent luck shimming the gap and making the soreness go away if the bridging is SLIGHT. I am also a huge believer in half pads and have a large collection, which can make minor adjustments work. Shimming would not be my goal if I had one horse and one saddle for it, and I would definitely not buy a saddle that needed shims to make it work in your case. I also think many horses like the looser feel of a half pad.

The horse will tell you if the saddle is uncomfortable to them. I think that palpating a horse’s back should be taught as a -before and after riding every time- part of grooming – and happily trade it for things like tail brushing and perfectly mudless! That 20 seconds a day is priceless.

@beowulf heartbreaking your Zaria isn’t fitting your boy! I would get another saddle fitter to add flocking in the bridge and see what happens before you throw in the towel on it. That fitter sounds…sketchy.

Also IME Stubben fits saddles really tight. My horses have never liked that and prefer a more open, flexible fit.

[Lusoluv]

Someone telling you any saddle SHOULD bridge??? No - just no. Saddle fitting isn’t rocket science, though it can be an art when dealing with difficult conformation. However, it is mostly common sense and if it sounds wrong, it most is. Runaway from fitters like this.

[sheltona01]

I know, it is just a pet peeve of mine to hear all of the misinformation and honestly it makes me so angry and makes my heart hurt. I feel bad for the clients and I really feel bad for the horses that suffer. They sad thing is that most fitters are really trying and probably believe what they are saying. It is what they were taught from people who they believe.

I was taught to sometimes bridge a saddle from my first mentor and believed it then. However since then I have continued my education and understanding and not longer believe it. I understand why she thought it was a good idea. It came from a misunderstanding on how the horse moves. Then there is always that odd horse that proves you wrong and goes against the saddle fitting norms. :lol:

[beowulf]

@fordtraktor Amen on the back palpations - or even just watching a horse’s eye when the saddle comes out and is put on their back!

Regarding the Zaria… sad right?! I’m only throwing in the towel because on top of the bridging (which could be fixed by some thoughtful reflocking) he is so disproportionately sore over his shoulders/back for what should be a minor bridge that I’m starting to think it is not the saddle for him… even though he did very well with it the first 8 months… but he is completely different in terms of shape now.

Personally, I think the tree size I was recommended is too small.