The Science of Supplements

[phosics]

I just listened to the Noelle Floyd Podcast with Dr. Jyme Nichols, a certified equine Professional Animal Scientist, on supplements. It got pretty in depth on the science behind choosing effective supplements that help to build out a well rounded diet for your horse and I found in very educational.

One of the neater things I learned was about hay analysis and how that can be used to determine what your horse is getting in his hay and what he might need supplemented in his feed/other supplements. Didn’t know that even existed to the masses but what a cool tool.

So, I’d love to hear - how do you all decide what supplements to add or subtract in your horse’s diet? Interesting research you have found on what’s out there? Let’s hear it!

[Scribbler]

I had my hay analyzed several times years ago. It convinced me to source better quality hay. It’s easy enough to do, and my feed coop included a chat with a nutritionist to evaluate.

I feed a good broad vitamin and mineral supplement and a cup of flax and ounce of salt in a beet pulp alfalafa cube mash. Cheapest option where I live. It’s just a common sense solution. We need selenium here and I wanted a good dose of copper zinc and biotin for barefoot hooves.

If you are new to horse nutrition I’d re commend Julie Gettys “Feed Your Horse Like a Horse.” Good basic introduction.

The biggest thing IMHO is not letting your horses get obese.

[GoodTimes]

Dr Jyme has a podcast called the Feed Room Chemist.
It’s quite good.

As far as picking supplements and diets for each horse? It’s such an individual thing.

My young mare is simple. She just gets hay and a ration balancer.
My gelding is a little more complicated. He lives out 24/7 and only gets fed when I’m there (usually 6 times/wk). His weight is fine on free choice hay, so he just gets mad barn Amino trace. He has allergies and respiratory issues so he also gets an Omega 3 oil that’s high in EPA and DHA, as well as spirulina.

[phosics]

I’ll have to check her podcast out! I have heard it mentioned here and there before but I didn’t realize that it was hers.

They talked about a software that I thought sounded pretty neat. It is a website that you can plug in your hay values, feed, supplements, etc and it spits out the value of everything your horse is getting and highlights what he might be high and low in. It’s FeedXL.com . I don’t know if maybe it is overkill for the average horse owner but I am a numbers and analysis lover so I love the concept of it.

[blob99]

I’ve used tools like feedxl (and I’ve also used a nutritionist in the past for a complicated case) to see what my horses are getting and what they might need. I do not have horses who are getting the amount of grain the manufacturer recommends. So, that means I might need to supplement with a balancer or just a few things.

You can also find out about the grass/soil in the area!

One of mine is grain free, so he gets a vit/min supplement and flax. He has a sensitive stomach (why he’s grain free), so I’ve tried various tummy supplements on him, but none have really helped.

My other one gets a mix of performance grain and a ration balancer and is supplemented also with flax, vit E in the winter.

[JB]

@phosics

Didn’t know that even existed to the masses but what a cool tool.

www.equi-analytical.com is a great place to test hay. The 601 test is all most people need (603 if you’re trying to dial in metabolic diets)

Some county extension agencies do forage testing, but IME many of those only do bare bones basic testing, not including trace mineral testing. Some allow you to add that on to the basic, but even then, IME the cost ends up right at or higher than the 601 E-A test, so you might as well start with the better one.

I don’t recommend testing grass, as sugar/starch levels change throughout the day, nutrient levels change with seasons and even different parts of the pasture.

@phosics

how do you all decide what supplements to add or subtract in your horse’s diet?

You start with the hay analysis, if that’s an option. Lots of people can’t test their hay because whether they board or keep at home, they don’t have enough of a single supply to warrant it.

If you have your forage analysis, then you start there. You don’t even need a FeedXL subscription, you can plug numbers in here. Use the top tabs to put in the details of your horse (Animal Specifications) , your feed info (Dietary Supply) and work your way across.
Nutrient Requirements of Horses - Working Doc (nationalacademies.org)

As far as choosing a supplement to fill in the gaps, that entirely depends on the gaps. A ration balancer may do a very good job - pick one available to you, plug in the numbers you’d get from a proper serving, and see what you get. Sometimes you only need copper and zinc, and those can be supplemented separately.

@GoodTimes

As far as picking supplements and diets for each horse? It’s such an individual thing.

It is and isn’t. 2 1000lb horses in moderate work still have the same nutritional needs, even if their calorie needs are very different. Their calorie needs, or any food sensitivities, would then the be the individual requirements in filling nutritional gaps or imbalances.

@phosics

It’s FeedXL.com

Keep in mind its shortcomings. If you don’t have YOUR forage to input, it’s as generic as the average forage it will use. Its output is only as good as the info it has for the supplements/feeds you say you use. It will tell you the horse is deficient in the B vitamins your horse is almost guaranteed to be making on his own.

It’s best feature, which the NRC working doc (above) doesn’t do, is try to recommend a supplement to fill the gaps it sees, but IMHO that’s not worth paying for.

@blob99

You can also find out about the grass/soil in the area!

Generally, yes, but that doesn’t mean the horse has an issue. There are some areas where selenium is either really high (many areas of CO), or really low, BUT, you need to do blood work to see where your horse is, on his diet before making any addition/removal decisions.

There are a few areas where grass doesn’t provide enough Vit E, but again - blood work first.

Soil analysis tells you how to fertilize for optimally healthy grass.
Hay analysis tells you how to feed/supplement for an optimally healthy horse.

[StormyDay]

I personally follow the Pete Ramey crowd (Hoof Care and Rehabilitation on Facebook) that recommends feeding copper, zinc, and table salt as the base. If the horse doesn’t get a lot of grass then you add in vitamin E, and if the horse is metabolic you add in magnesium oxide. Ideally you test your hay to know how much you need of these things, but in a lot of cases that’s just not possible (for me, I can’t store enough hay for the year and my horses get the majority of their forage from grass from April-November)

In more recent years some equine healthcare professionals have felt that iron may cause more issues in the hoof that previously thought. It’s probably wise to test for your iron levels in your barn water and if they are high, use a filtration system. Of course, in a boarding situation that may be impossible, so in that case they usually recommend adding in more than the recommendation for copper and zinc (up to double the amount).

I’m not a equine researcher, but I can say in my herd I’ve seen excellent results with this. Mainly in their hooves. I initially Pooh-poohed the diet as I couldn’t imagine what feeding a bunch of metals was going to do, but I’ve been pleasantly surprised and I’m now a convert to the cult of Ramey

[Amy3996]

When I was newer to horse ownership, I got totally sucked in by SmartPak marketing. My relatively low maintenance senior had a SP strip a mile long for no good reason.

Now, I try to keep it as simple as I can for my young TB. Vitamin E/Selenium because he was deficient when tested, and our area is both naturally low in selenium and has no fresh pasture for a good chunk of the year. Salt, a V/M supplement to fill in the gaps because he gets less than the recommended daily ration of Ultium, Farrier’s Formula, and Outlast because of his ulcer history.

My one supplement that some might consider gimmicky or unnecessary is Equaide BodyBuilder. It’s a liquid muscle support supplement that I was initially very skeptical of but seems to have made a remarkable difference for him.

@StormyDay

If the horse doesn’t get a lot of hay then you add in vitamin E,

I think you meant fresh grass? Hay contains very little Vit E.

[JB]

@StormyDay

If the horse doesn’t get a lot of hay then you add in vitamin E

Grass, not hay

@StormyDay

In more recent years some equine healthcare professionals have felt that iron may cause more issues in the hoof that previously thought.

It’s much less about the high iron, and much more about the total amount of cu/zn, the ratio of cu:zn (the only “known” ratio, 1:4-ish), and a general ratio of fe:cu (ie let’s not do 60:1, try to get reasonably closer to 10:1 or so). That said, sometimes just adding cu/zn isn’t enough, and some horses do benefit from also lowering the Fe intake

The 150/450 amounts are very reasonable for sure. Double that is also reasonable in the right situations

The MgOx can be really good for IR hosres

[StormyDay]

Yes I meant grass. Typo

[GoodTimes]

@JB

@GoodTimes

As far as picking supplements and diets for each horse? It’s such an individual thing.

It is and isn’t. 2 1000lb horses in moderate work still have the same nutritional needs, even if their calorie needs are very different. Their calorie needs, or any food sensitivities, would then the be the individual requirements in filling nutritional gaps or imbalances.

Sure, if you’ve got a barn full of performance horses, or a barn full of school ponies you’ve likely just got a couple tweaks to optimize the diet for each individual.
But if I scan the farm where my horses are I see a young stallion who is in work, plus it’s breeding season. Then I see two 30yo pony mares, one of whom foundered in the past. Then I see some very pregnant broodmares, followed by a mare with a two week old foal at her side.
Then we’ve got my gelding with equine asthma. Then we’ve got an older guy who is missing some teeth. Some school horses. Some performance horses. Etc, etc.

So yes, they’ve all got the same basic needs. But they’re each individuals. Each with owners who want to meet those basic needs, plus decide if a horse with a particular ailment may noticeably benefit from a particular supplement. Science vs marketing. If it’s worth the money. This is where functional nutrition comes in.

[JB]

Yes, they are individuals. My 32yo has very different calorie needs from my 11yo and his 22yo mother, but pretty similar nutritional needs as the mare based on weight and work.

Individuals still fall into needs by category - pregnant, nursing, breeding (which is often very similar to a harder working horse), etc.

“it is, and it isn’t” takes all that into account by individual. Even if you had a barn full of performance horses, with the same nutritional needs, their calorie needs could be all over the place. When my 17h 1500lb WB was in full work, he had higher nutritional needs, but a significantly lower calorie need, than my 16.1-2h 1250lb TB mare not in any work.

Feeding horses is mostly science, with some mix of art, and while you always tailor to the individual, you start with their category to determine how to individualize

[lorilu]

@JB

The MgOx can be really good for IR hosres

Could someone explain why please?

[Bogie]

My draft x mare gets a small amount of grain (Triple Crown senior) but mostly subsists on beet pulp and a vitamin/mineral supplement. She’s turned out 24/7 on grass and gets hay as needed (I’m in the Northeast so we don’t have hay all year 'round]. She has a tendency to get “fluffy” if she doesn’t get enough work.

My TB gelding got 6 quarts of TC Senior/day plus all the hay I could stuff into him, a fat supplement like Purina Amplify, and soaked alfalfa cubes. He was deficient in vitamin E so I supplemented with an all natural human grade supplement. If I didn’t watch him like a hawk, he got ribby. I really want his metabolism, but I’m obviously a draft x like my mare!

I don’t test my hay because it comes from so many sources.

[JB]

@lorilu

Could someone explain why please?

Magnesium plays a role in glucose management, and for some IR horses, they simply need more of that to help them. That’s why it’s in many IR-specific supplements, in relatively appreciable amounts.