The Secret Horse Quest for the True Appaloosa

[findeight]

On the topic of the land bridge, diversity and movement of mammals from the Miocene thru the Pliocene and Pleistocene, current thought is there was no THE land bridge. There were many times as the glaciers waxed and waned it was possible (but not easy since it would have been ice covered) to migrate on land between Asia and North America-some going east, some west. Making pinning down the exact origin of a species possibly developing concurrently on at least two continents more complicated.

Let alone color patterns within a species even if there were numerous complete, accurately dated skeletons with well preserved hide and hair showing color and pattern, which we don’t have. Rather surprising to some there is still much we don’t know and new information rewrites what we thought we did.

I so hate the pseudo documentaries and their “sort of science” passing as serious programming. Between the Mermaids, that Really Big Shark one and the Sasquatch hunters? And the Alien theorists? Guess you can make up whatever you want and sell it as a “Documentary” or science based exploration show. Use enough big words and make up a “Research Foundation” and you are good to go.

I think in this case, the use of “Secret…Quest for the True…” in the title sounds a little theatrical, perhaps it suggests Appys arrived here with the Knights Templar and the Holy Grail. On a space ship manned by Vikings.

[Sandy_M]

Findeight - So True…Gad! History Channel and TLC have become so schlocky! At least SyFy says it’s SyFy.

As for the lady with the DNA testing. First question would be, what is the extended pedigree of the Appaloosa tested? Since the “modern” Appaloosa has a lot of other stuff mixed in, is the DNA link from the TB part (well, duh), the QH part (a breed of TB derivation), the Arab Part, the Mustang Part…?? Lemme see, the Arab is Asian all by itself, and TBs and QHs all have heavy doses of ancestral Barbs, Turks and Arabians… We therefore know even without DNA testing that Appaloosas ULTIMATELY have an Asian derivation - but I would tend to believe that derivation came mostly through the Spanish horses in the 15th-16th Century, not over the various land bridge(s) in prehistoric times.

Methinks this is a somewhat calculated quest, i.e., let’s make something sound mysterious and see if TV will pay us for a show about it! I know they can kinda “sort it out” and tell you what breeds (probably) make up your mutt dog, but I didn’t know they were doing it with horses yet. Certainly possible, but I think it something to make book on that it ain’t going to reveal your Appaloosa is descended from Prezwalski’s horse!

FWIW, a recent article in Equus (I haven’t read the entire thing yet), seems to be saying that the proverbial three foundation sires of the TB were not, in fact “Arabian,” but Barb and Turk (some Arabian obviously, but not the “pure” Arabian usually noted).

I would also note that Cro-Magnon (I think) cave paintings at, I believe, Peche Merle, picture spotted horses. But I’ve never heard of anything similar in North America of contemporaneous time.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Pech+Merle+horse+paintings&biw=792&bih=454&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=pMPCVPP1KpbqoATk54AI&ved=0CCAQsAQ

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Sandy M;7972261]
spotted coloring is certainly regarded as “primitive,” along with duns/zebra striping. [/QUOTE]

inquiring, as I was taught it was the opposite? spotting is linked with domestication?

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7973878]
inquiring, as I was taught it was the opposite? spotting is linked with domestication?[/QUOTE]

Never heard that. I wouldn’t think so, based on the Peche Merle paintings of spotted horses which are prehistoric. Maybe confirmed and selected for among domesticated horses by human intervention.

[Appsolute]

I too have read about spotting and its correlation with domestication (there was that interesting study regarding foxes being bred for personality - and pretty quickly they ended up spotted).

BUT - there are also ancient cave drawings:

Leopard Spotted Horses cave paintings - ancient cave paintings of the Stone Age that are among the oldest drawings made by Paleolithic humans, and also serve as evidence of our growing capabilities, what has a great significance in evolutionary sciences. These paintings that seemed to depict fictional white-spotted horses might have been drawn from real environment observations. Scientists hotly debate how realistic these paintings are — discovering this fact could reveal whether ancient humans tended more toward accuracy or creativity.Recent discoveries by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences show the similarities between DNA contained in old fossils and paintings.

Until now, scientists only had DNA evidence of monochrome horses - mainly bay and black - living in Europe in that period, and had therefore assumed that the spots had a shamanistic or spiritual significance – or were simply the artistic license of an imaginative caveman. With past research of ancient DNA only turning up evidence of brown and black horses as seen painted in the Lascaux Cave and Chauvet Cave, scientists wondered if the spotted horses seen in other caves such as Pech Merle, with it paintings of white horses with black spots, were real or fantasy,. New DNA evidence gathered and analyzed by an international team of researchers has found that spotted horses did indeed exist in Europe in what is known as the Upper Paleolithic period, 50,000 to 10,000 years ago.

[Sandy_M]

Okay - Arabians - step aside - Appaloosas (and Knabstruppers) are the oldest breed. (Aside from Prezwalski’s horse, of course). Okay, make that the oldest domesticated breed. And people look down their noses at our spotted, stubborn, exasperating, beautiful horses. Now I have justification for my stubborn (oh, there’s a clue) clinging to Appies as my breed of choice. ROFLOL

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=Appsolute;7973906]
I too have read about spotting and its correlation with domestication (there was that interesting study regarding foxes being bred for personality - and pretty quickly they ended up spotted). [/QUOTE]

That fact was referenced in the movie Limbo - a movie many people hated because of its ambiguous ending. That aside, the fox story laughingly forms the basis for the argument about MY horse’s rather reactive, “more Arab than Appaloosa” temperament. His full brother is much calmer. Since they’ve isolated the Lp (leopard) gene that governs all Appy coat patterns, my conclusion is that when that gene is fully expressed in the leopard pattern, it carries with it the calmer Appaloosa temperament, just as the tamer the foxes got, the more broken their coats got. Needless to say, my horse is not leopard, but a chestnut with a snowflake blanket with a few small spots. G.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Carl Raswan’s explanation of the great three:

The Godolphin Arab or Barb–and Arab of a strain in the desert that the Bedouin knew had Turkomen blood. I can understand this because of the markedly arched neck the Godolphin was known for.

The Darley Arabian–of a slightly different Arabian mare line, but also one with Turkoman blood. When I looked at the reproductions of the paintings of the Darley I see a horse that does have the refinement of true Arab blood as well as the slight elongation of the Turkoman.

The strains of the Godolphin and Darley stallions Raswan gave were Muniqi and Jilfan, but right this minute I can’t remember which was which and I’m too tired to find the book.

The Byerly Turk–a Turkoman horse.

The long lines of the TB conformation come from the Turkoman. The Turkoman blood came from all three of the source stallions.

Of course the TB obviously has a lot of Barb blood in it. This could well have come from the Royal mares. Back then Barbs, Turks and Arabs, mares and stallions, were considered proper royal gifts. Of course now we know that the British Galloways were also represented through DNA research, backing up the statements of early English TB breeders and stud men.

The idea that the English TB had mostly Arab ancestors is the fault of the Lady Wentworth (Crabbet Park). Yes there was a good bit of Arab blood acknowledged in the early TBs but Lady Wentworth was a painter, and she cleverly altered copies she made of the paintings (and photographs) to “prove” her all Oriental (no Galloway) mostly Arab hypothesis and wrote a giant book about it.

The great comfort to me of the mistaken hypothesis that everything good in the TB came from the Arab is what drove the Blunts to the desert, buying the best Arabs they could to “rejuvenate” the TB, resulted in the saving of the pure Arabian breed. Their desert imports are in the blood of all the major breeding programs worldwide, Egypt, Russia, USA, British, Spanish, South America, Australia and some in the Polish.

By the way I knew one TB mare that had Appy type black spots on her chestnut coat, but her eyes and hooves were normal. Possibly from a Turkoman or Barb recessive?

[Jackie_Cochran]

By the way, I like Appys fine. I just wish they didn’t come with melanoma and blindness.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Sandy M;7973903]
Never heard that. I wouldn’t think so, based on the Peche Merle paintings of spotted horses which are prehistoric. Maybe confirmed and selected for among domesticated horses by human intervention.[/QUOTE]

I’m referring to what Appsolute is talking about – there was a study where animals were selected for temperament – over several generations the animals selected for good temperament values also ended up becoming spotted. It’s definitely a correlation, spottiness and domestication.

Which is why I wonder if the paintings are not the spotted horses we think of today, but rather what wild spotted animals have.

[RutlandH2O]

I watched the documentary two nights ago. It was fascinating!

Scott Engstrom is a 69 year old New Zealand-based American who is an Appaloosa breeder. She had seen a documentary on Kyrgyzstan on which she saw, what she believed to be, a pure Appaloosa. Armed with years of personal research into the history of the breed (it has been her contention that the breed originates in Asia, not Europe) she contacted the presenter of the documentary in an effort to locate the aforesaid horse. Her quest took her to Kyrgyzstan with the presenter. Martin, the horse in question, was not located, but many Appaloosas were, after an arduous journey on horses to the back of beyond near the border with China. There, she was able to photograph the horses and take samples of manes for DNA analysis. Sure enough, after all the tests were completed, she was vindicated. Her assertion of the Asian origins of the breed was categorically verified.

If you get the chance to see the documentary, don’t miss it.

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7973957]
By the way, I like Appys fine. I just wish they didn’t come with melanoma and blindness.[/QUOTE]

Homozygous Appaloosas (few spot leopards, snow caps) often have night blindness, which is not generally a problem. Heterozygous Appaloosas are not nightblind. I’ve never known an Appy with melanoma, though I’m sure it is possible, but I don’t believe at any higher rate than other breeds. I know of a greyed out Appy (some idiot bred a Palomino App to a grey QH), who is in his 30s - double whammy supposedly - but he is neither blind nor does he have melanoma, though he is totally greyed out. I have known several Appies with sarcomas, usually around the mottled skin on the eyes. They are more vulnerable to, but don’t necessarily get, recurrent uveitis, which occurs in many other breeds.

All of the listed conditions are not exclusive to Appaloosas. FWIW, I have owned four over the past 35+ years. Two were Foundation bred, one was a second-gen TB cross, and the present one is an Araloosa. All full color and characteristics. None had melanoma or uveitis. One old horse in our barn - a varnish roan - did develop uveitis at 30. I think his owner probably thought she had a pretty good run with him, and he lived to be 34. I would not - and obviously have not - shied away from owning an Appaloosa because of the potential for blindness or cancer.

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=RutlandH2O;7973994]
I watched the documentary two nights ago. It was fascinating!

Scott Engstrom is a 69 year old New Zealand-based American who is an Appaloosa breeder. She had seen a documentary on Kyrgyzstan on which she saw, what she believed to be, a pure Appaloosa. Armed with years of personal research into the history of the breed (it has been her contention that the breed originates in Asia, not Europe) she contacted the presenter of the documentary in an effort to locate the aforesaid horse. Her quest took her to Kyrgyzstan with the presenter. Martin, the horse in question, was not located, but many Appaloosas were, after an arduous journey on horses to the back of beyond near the border with China. There, she was able to photograph the horses and take samples of manes for DNA analysis. Sure enough, after all the tests were completed, she was vindicated. Her assertion of the Asian origins of the breed was categorically verified.

If you get the chance to see the documentary, don’t miss it.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think she’s been paying attention: “The Appaloosa” by Francis Haines, published in 1963, very clearly says the Appaloosa horse originated in Central Asia. However, that doesn’t mean they got to North America via Asia. Until someone establishes that the horses in North America did NOT come with the Spanish, I’ll go along with accepted knowledge. She would seem to have “established” something that was already known.

[Guilherme]

The sources of horses in the New World is varied. The key point to consider, however, is that the native horses (where ever they may have originated) were extinct for several thousand years prior to the arrival of the Spaniards and their re-introduction of the species into North America.

I’m not familiar with the history of Russian imports into Alaska and further south during their colonial period. If the Appy is of Asiatic origin then they are the most likely importers. They had the European sailing technology necessary to successful equine imports. Chinese and Japanese sailors are claimed to have conducted voyages of discovery but evidence of such voyages is vanishingly rare. This is remarkable because both cultures were, otherwise, very careful record keepers.

We live in a time when horse ownership is rare and horses are prized as almost pets. During the Age of Horsepower horse ownership was also rare and horses were prized but not as pets; they were part and parcel of the survival mechanism for those societies. In China (and in Japan) horse ownership was difficult as arable land is scarce and horses eat a lot. The Mongols were an exception. A large part of their military success was their horses from the Steppes. Otherwise horses were not nearly as common as they would be in Europe (Northern or Southern).

There ownership was also not common but use was. The peon at a hacienda might not own a horse but could be a skilled horseman. In Iberia open range herding was the order of the day and the peon could become a vaquero. In Northern Europe land was forest or fenced into small areas. The serf, if they animal power at all, was like a mule or oxen driver. The nobility were the horsemen.

This history is important because when the Spanish came horses came with them in large numbers. There were key to many military victories over the native peoples. They also had few predators to worry about and, if they eloped, they could breed quickly and in numbers. This was especially true in Tejas and California. A peon in New World could not only become a vaquero they could own the mount they rode.

Horse use was quickly learned by the native peoples and some would become legends in North America.

Most North American tribes were not noted breeders. This does not mean they didn’t allow their horses to breed, only that it was “back yard breeding” on a tribal scale. The Nez Perce were an exception. Their horses were prized for their hardiness and soft way of going (sometimes called the “Indian Shuffle”). They attempted to resist white incursion into their territory and, under Chief Joseph, were successful for a time. But ultimately the Army’s superior organization and numbers began to prevail and an attempt to escape to Canada was lead by Chief Joseph. They almost made it, but fell short.

After Chief Joseph’s surrender the Army rounded up all the Appaloosa stallions they could find and euthanized them. In accordance with the public policy of turning Indian tribes into farmers they replaced the stallions with draft or half draft stallions. It is believed that a very few of the original stallions survived and multiple attempts have been made to “recreate” the original horse.

G.

[RutlandH2O]

Sandy M: I believe Scott Engstrom’s belief in the Asian origins of the Appaloosa was supported by much of Francis Haines’ research. For her, the definitive proof was the DNA evidence. There are several Appaloosa families. The North American and Kyrgyzstan families had the closest genetic connection. On the contrary, she was paying great attention.

Guilherme: Scott Engstrom made a point of describing the many other breeds of horses that were crossed with spotted horses in NA. She, also, waxed poetic about the Nez Perce horses’ extremely rideable “shuffle.”

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=Sandy M;7973853]
Findeight - So True…Gad! History Channel and TLC have become so schlocky! At least SyFy says it’s SyFy.

As for the lady with the DNA testing. First question would be, what is the extended pedigree of the Appaloosa tested? Since the “modern” Appaloosa has a lot of other stuff mixed in, is the DNA link from the TB part (well, duh), the QH part (a breed of TB derivation), the Arab Part, the Mustang Part…?? Lemme see, the Arab is Asian all by itself, and TBs and QHs all have heavy doses of ancestral Barbs, Turks and Arabians… We therefore know even without DNA testing that Appaloosas ULTIMATELY have an Asian derivation - but I would tend to believe that derivation came mostly through the Spanish horses in the 15th-16th Century, not over the various land bridge(s) in prehistoric times.

Methinks this is a somewhat calculated quest, i.e., let’s make something sound mysterious and see if TV will pay us for a show about it! I know they can kinda “sort it out” and tell you what breeds (probably) make up your mutt dog, but I didn’t know they were doing it with horses yet. Certainly possible, but I think it something to make book on that it ain’t going to reveal your Appaloosa is descended from Prezwalski’s horse!

FWIW, a recent article in Equus (I haven’t read the entire thing yet), seems to be saying that the proverbial three foundation sires of the TB were not, in fact “Arabian,” but Barb and Turk (some Arabian obviously, but not the “pure” Arabian usually noted).

I would also note that Cro-Magnon (I think) cave paintings at, I believe, Peche Merle, picture spotted horses. But I’ve never heard of anything similar in North America of contemporaneous time.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Pech+Merle+horse+paintings&biw=792&bih=454&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=pMPCVPP1KpbqoATk54AI&ved=0CCAQsAQ[/QUOTE]

Whatever you do, do NOT blow to pieces my precious “King of the Wind” book!!! I believe in every last bit of it, down to the kitty cat.

[findeight]

Just to muddy the picture, the Chinese in the Middle Ages had quite the navy and were transporting armies and cavalry anywhere they could. They could have made the west coast on the Japanese current before the Spaniards and long after the land bridge. No proof but who knows? Especially if they ended up there by accident, in which case there would be little or no documentation other then they set sail and never came back presumed lost. History that does exsist of that time does not dwell on screw ups, only the great deeds and successes.

The cave paintings could have been the work of a fanciful young artist and are not proof. Theories are interesting as is the documentation that supports them. But they are still theories.

[lorilu]

My understanding is that there were a few ocurrances of the spotted gene mutation; the spanish horses had it (hence the paintings), the asian horses had it, the Knobbies have it (I read that it was a different independent mutation - I have heard they imported appys to diversify their gene pool).

I think we have to remember that there is no reason similar phenotypes would not occur from similar, independently occurring mutations in diverse, separate and non-interbreeding populations

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=findeight;7974982]
Just to muddy the picture, the Chinese in the Middle Ages had quite the navy and were transporting armies and cavalry anywhere they could. They could have made the west coast on the Japanese current before the Spaniards and long after the land bridge. No proof but who knows? Especially if they ended up there by accident, in which case there would be little or no documentation other then they set sail and never came back presumed lost. History that does exsist of that time does not dwell on screw ups, only the great deeds and successes.

The cave paintings could have been the work of a fanciful young artist and are not proof. Theories are interesting as is the documentation that supports them. But they are still theories.[/QUOTE]

Prior to about 1350 the Chinese were a major sea-faring power. Their vision, like that of the Europeans, was southward towards the riches of the Spice Islands. The north held little interest for China.

Around that time a major power struggle developed in the Imperial Court that pitted the “internationalists” (which included the naval advocates) against the “isolationists” who were interested in turning more inward. Note that these categories are not completely accurate but are “close enough.” The isolationists won and an order went out to burn the existing ships and dismantle the dockyards and transfer the shipwrights to other tasks. China would eschew sea power until into the 21st Century.

Even in it’s glory days the Chinese sailing technology was not equal to the Europeans, nor was their shipbuilding. If they had continued to push forward they might have learned better ways and we can contemplate what might have happened if the Chinese had rounded the Cape of Good Hope first, instead of the Portuguese. Maybe we’d all be speaking Chinese!

The Japanese, however, took a different track. The Japans were visited by the Portuguese, among others, and a significant Western culture was imported. For their own reasons the Japanese decided to end foreign influence, killed or exiled all foreign visitors, killed locals who had converted to Christianity or otherwise displayed foreign mannerisms, outlawed and destroyed all firearms, and remained isolated until Commodore Perry opened the islands to trade in 1853. The Japanese quickly embraced the new world being thrust upon them and began an incredibly vigorous Westernization of their technology. They quickly entered treaties with Great Brittain and obtained British industrial and military technology. The created the Imperial Japanese Navy and modeled it after the RN. Within 50 years they would be able to send a fleet to sea that would embarrass the Russian Empire and make themselves a major power in Asia. But they never imported any horses to North America that we can identify!

There were two attempts by China to invade Japan in the 13th Century but both ended badly thanks to two typhoons that destroyed the Chinese vessels. The Japanese proclaimed Divine Winds were sent by the gods to protect Japan. Their word for the “divine wind” was “kamikaze.”

Russians were very active sea farers and that would ultimately bring them into conflict with the Japanese and lead to the Russo-Japanese War in 1904. If anybody imported Asian horses into North America it would have been them.

G.

[SuzieQNutter]

If you do the free Coursera course.

They say that there was horses in America in the beginning but they escaped over the land bridge.

The instructor is right into it and you can discuss it with him if you want to.