The stubborn green horse who balks. At my wits end!

[Gumby80]

In terms of physical issues, you could ultrasound the hind suspensories if you haven’t already. Bilateral lesions can manifest as not wanting to go forwards. Kissing spines/cervical spine spurs could also result in random explosive behavior.

In terms of behavioral issues, will she go forwards on the longe? Will she go forwards on a completely loose rein? If yes, maybe she’s feeling “choked” when ridden into contact, or the problem is with some part of her that’s required for collection (back, hind end).

If you’re confident it’s mostly behavioral, I second (third?) teaching her to disengage her hindquarters. It’s a safe and effective way to make them move their feet in a position where it’s very difficult for them to rear/buck/run off.

If no luck, get her re-started by someone good. The point of starting them isn’t just to get them to trot/canter etc, it’s to get them happy to respond to small, light cues. If an otherwise sound, comfortable horse feels that the best option when presented with a cue is to ignore you, or to wait until you yell/scream/beat them with a longe-whip before they respond, then the starting process has failed, and you need to go back to basics.

[Cataluna]

Wow, thank you everyone for all the helpful comments!

I’ve had a couple rides since I last posted and am super happy to report that they have been amazing. Our last one had no balking whatsoever and a very happy mare :). We learned a few things that I’ll share. I’m not a new rider but I’m fairly new to dressage and have tended to be a little too light in the saddle and a little too forgiving in the bridle, opposed to really establishing a solid, steady, reliable connection. Nothing major or particularly obvious, but I’m often being reminded to shorten my reins back up during lessons. My coach switched me from my thin braided reins to thick rubber ones so I would be less inclined to subconsciously let them out slightly, and low and behold, my mare seemed thrilled about it. She LOVED all the super consistent support. Also switched her to a micklem bridle from a basic snaffle bridle which may have helped?

We think the balking may have been coming from a place of insecurity because she has tended to need quite a bit of support and balancing. It’s something I’ve been trying to work on for a while and I do a pretty good job with it overall, but perhaps not quite consistent enough for her in particular, and she felt like she couldn’t trust me to help her feel super secure under saddle. This is just a theory based on our last couple of rides.

We’re feeling really hopeful about this but just in case we’re not out of the woods yet, I am still exploring other possibilities so I’ll try and answer questions and reply more info below:

• Background is that she’s rising 5. Backed and started for 60 days with a pro as a 3 y/o, had the fall/winter off, then picked up regular schooling as a 4 y/o with 2-4 rides per week. Super fun, super easy mare from Day 1 until this balking thing made an appearance.

• Stifles are relevant because hers are weak. Two separate vets said to continue strengthening them with hill work, trotting poles and caveletti (all which she enjoys) and they don’t seem to need any veterinary intervention. We are keeping an eye on them

• Repo issues have also been considered but she doesn’t exhibit any other symptoms. Vets didn’t seem to think it was worth exploring too much

• Selenium levels have not been checked but definitely something I will keep in mind

• Hindgut ulcers were discussed with one vet but have not been explored

• I board at an eventing barn and am fortune to have access to lots of awesome hacking which we take advantage of

• I am super comfortable on her and very secure in the saddle in terms of my “velcro butt” :lol:… her bucks (when they do happen) aren’t a problem at all. Just a note that she isn’t randomly explosive. She will explode after a good whack with my dressage whip to get moving… the problem is that she explodes, I ride it out (forward, yay!), then she promptly slams on the brakes again, and refuses to go forward. Rinse and repeat. Using a whip was a short-lived experiment.

• Hind suspensories haven’t been ultrasounded but I’ll mention it

• The only way we can disengage her hindquarters is with the help of someone on the ground. You could pull her nose to her tail and push her all you want with you leg in the saddle and she wouldn’t move a single hoof a single inch. She turns her feet into cement.

• We’ve had a few different riders on her, and she’s been the same with everyone

I think that’s everything… hopefully our rides continue to go as well as they have been this week. Thanks again!

[snowrider]

Get a long whip and tap tap tap right on the hock when she locks up.

[exploding_pony]

Good for you! Glad to hear things are better!

One concern is your comment about inability to disengage her hindquarters. You need to get that fixed. If she is doing this at 5 you are going to have big problems later on. I think 5 is the toughest age - they are rebellious teenagers

But you need to be able to move her around or else when you are in trouble it gets much much much more dangerous. Easy to say, I know …

[mvp]

[QUOTE=exploding pony;8540292]
Good for you! Glad to hear things are better!

One concern is your comment about inability to disengage her hindquarters. You need to get that fixed. If she is doing this at 5 you are going to have big problems later on. I think 5 is the toughest age - they are rebellious teenagers

But you need to be able to move her around or else when you are in trouble it gets much much much more dangerous. Easy to say, I know …[/QUOTE]

I guess I don’t understand the comment that the mare cements her feet to the ground. Really? You can’t do something to make a horse want to move and “get out of harm’s way?” (Me and a whip being the approaching harm.)

I get not wanting to have a big fight about Thou Shalt Go Forward with a balking mare on her back. But I don’t see why this can’t be worked out in short order on the ground or long-lining.

I’m confused.

[Cataluna]

I meant while she is balking. The cement feet happen only when she’s planted herself and is refusing to go forward (or backwards… or sideways). Using a whip to force her to move results in explosive bucking like I outlined in earlier posts. When she’s balking, light to medium taps are completely ignored, and anything harder launches a rodeo, promptly followed by more balking despite encouraging the forward movement. Whip wasn’t the solution unfortunately.

When she’s being “normal” and not balking she’s like driving a Ferrari in terms of adjustability, sensitivity and response to aids… disengaging the hindquarters isn’t remotely a problem here. This is part of the reason why this balking had/has us so confused and frustrated, and why I came here to see if anyone else has ever dealt with a similar, bizarre problem.

So happy to report that we had another amazing ride on Saturday with only minor “stickiness” from halt to walk at the beginning of our lesson! I feel like our theory from last week may be the answer to it… lots of support and hand-holding. Rider error for sure.

[Countrywood]

Hopefully the balking was a stage and is in the past. But if it resurfaces, imo you need to go back to basic training, such as on ground and lunge line /simple riding basics to get her to respect the whip as an aid…

It is not that unusual for a horse to alternate between balkiness and being a Ferrari, both are flip sides of the same problem, the horse is over reacting or under reacting to rider’s aids. The Ferrari like aspect of a highly trained horse cant be desirable but in a green horse that alternates it with balking it means, like her explosive response to the whip, she is not responding reliably and steadily and consistently to the rider /aids. (including using the whip as an aid)

One has to get them forward the moment they start to balk before they plant feet, there usually is a few seconds in between when they are still moving but you feel their back come up/head come up a big slow down coming.

Maybe your timing is getting better and you are catching her before the foot planting part anyway good to hear it is going well!

[enjoytheride]

You need to put her in controlled situations that will stimulate the balking but allow you to work her past it. Continue working on forward, and take her someone that helps you learn how to move her laterally.

I took my mare to a cowboy and he asked me to move her haunches over. He said if I gain control over her haunches where I am able to adjust them in all gaits then I will remove the balking.

[enjoytheride]

You need to put her in controlled situations that will stimulate the balking but allow you to work her past it. Continue working on forward, and take her someone that helps you learn how to move her laterally.

I took my mare to a cowboy and he asked me to move her haunches over. He said if I gain control over her haunches where I am able to adjust them in all gaits then I will remove the balking.

[mvp]

@enjoytheride;8541607

You need to put her in controlled situations that will stimulate the balking but allow you to work her past it. Continue working on forward, and take her someone that helps you learn how to move her laterally.

This seems the right way to go, generally speaking.

OP, I did read your answer to my question about balkiness and cement feet in your otherwise-Ferrari. I won’t prescribe anything to you since you seem to have a solution worked out. But here’s the deal with my mare:

I have a young horse who is autonomous (she wants you to be sure to know) and who can get a bit afraid if someone asks her to do something that she thinks will cause her to lose her balance/get eaten by a predator she didn’t see coming. And she hasn’t had a job for that long, so along with all of these other interpersonal issues, she doesn’t yet have that soldier-like work ethic that an older horse has.

All this means that when she doesn’t want to do something, she’ll try some version of “No.” When I first had her, a farrier not giving her her leg back when asked meant “No” was a rear. Not her fault… seemed like the next logical thing to do if someone is hanging onto a front leg when you didn’t want him to. Her clock was cleaned. She learned that rearing as a version of “No” was not an option.

And she also had questions about whether or not it was reasonable to be asked to go back to work after a second walk break that included the rider pulling over to talk to someone outside the arena for a bit. That looks like “we’re all done” so she said “No” when I said “We’re back to work.” When she wouldn’t go forward, we did. We had a brisk little gallop and then quit after she gave me the trying, civilized trot I had wanted in the first place.

My point is horses don’t come knowing stuff. And they don’t know that they don’t get to say No. And they don’t know which forms of any NO they’d offer are unacceptable. So don’t get verklempt if your mare tries out a new form of NO. Just tell her whether or not that version is one that earns her what she wants… or does not.

[LilyandBaron]

Not a ton to offer more than others have, but with the whip, I had a rescue horse who had bad NH training, so he had been “desensitized” to the whip. This meant tapping him or hitting him (escalating to get a response) got the exact, wrong response - he would NOT flinch. You could see the poor thing thinking, “I’m not supposed to move now.” So, I was talking to a friend about it and she suggested a crop with a popper - the noise produced a result of forward where the dressage whip simply had him bracing against it because that’s what he’d been taught. A little different psychology, obviously - my guy was listening/obeying, but doing what he thought was right, not my new expectation. But just a thought that an audible aid might help a bit if needed and the contact doesn’t continue to help. The other thing is that 5-6 SUCKS. After about a year in training, horses hit full-on teen angst - they know it all, and they want what they want. Good luck getting past this!

[Reddfox]

I have dealt with horses like this. In hand work and long lining does wonders for instilling forward. Longing as well (with side reins so that they are going into contact), helps instill forward and it’s safer than riding through. The bucking, especially at the whip, tells me that this is a horse that has learnt to say no. (Providing that physically everything is fine.)

In long lining, and in the in-hand work. The horse must go forward off the whip, not the voice, not because the handler has helped them by leading them off slightly. Touch, and horse goes. It’s amazing what that work does to help the mindset of stuck horses.

I also will do double longing with horses that like to get sticky. A lot of times, they seem to be objecting to touching the outside rein, and double longing is a way to touch the outside rein, while driving them forward so that the horse can’t just spin out. It really helps the acceptance of the rein aids.

The other thing that helps is a turn on the forehand on the ground. You just have to make sure that the front feet don’t become rooted. So, hind moves and fronts steps over each other from a slight touch of the whip on the haunch. Horse can’t come over top of you, or just move sideways.

This behavior (if it is just behavioral) is something that tends to escalate, so, I’d be addressing in a safe manner sooner rather than later.

[keepersmom]

I could have written most of this post myself. I got my 5 year old mare home from the trainer, where she was doing beautifully and she just refused to go forward for me. She would not even move away from the mounting block. She never bucked or took off, but would stand there and strike with her front feet the more I pushed her. I decided not to fight I battle I am not good enough rider to win. She only did this with me. Others can ride her and she might possibly hesitate to see what she can get away with, but she never just refused to go forward with any of them. We had to use the lunge whip trick to get her to move. We eventually got her doing a bit better but I had a bad fall off of her in a canter depart where I lost my balance and broke my arm and although it was no fault of hers, decided the frustration of riding her was not worth it so I got new horse that is much more willing. It was (and is) heartbreaking because she is a lovely horse, sweet as can be, lovely mover, very quiet and sound. She was supposed to be my “dream horse” but I am taking her to a trainer to sell to someone that she won’t test like she does to me. Of course now reading all these suggestions is making me want to give it a go again with her! It’s been almost a year of her maturing, maybe she would be more cooperative now.

[angel]

If she won’t go forward, then have her go reinback. Ask for forward again. If still not, then another reinback. Repeat until she goes forward, and when she does go forward, make sure you are not holding those reins too tightly. Forget contact. Go forward is more important. When you hold the reins, make sure that your forearms remain vertical with your torso. Do not take your hands forward. The reins should be no shorter than a light contact with the sides of her mouth. Over time as you re-develop her “forward” motion direction, the reins should never become shorter than would result in the cheekpiece of the bridle being vertical with the ground. The nose will appear slightly in front of vertical at this point. If the front of the nose becomes vertical with the ground, it means she is overbent, and you will again risk balking.