The stubborn green horse who balks. At my wits end!

[Cataluna]

Let me preface by saying that everything physical has been ruled out at this point. Two months off with $2000 worth of lameness evaluations, chiro, extensive body work and massage work, checking teeth, professional saddle fitting, treating for ulcers, and trying 4 different girths. This is simply her saying “NO”, and I’ve had it. She’s a wicked smart mare, and she’s learned that we can’t make her really do anything that she doesn’t feel like doing.

How do you fix this issue??? As of now, trainer and I have resorted back to Square 1 and are essentially trying to start her all over again. The only way she’ll move forward is with the help of a lunge whip. She will not listen to it if trainer is on the other side of the arena, so we are essentially stuck working in 30m circles and serpentines. I can’t ride without my coach present. Once she gets “stuck” she flat out ignores leg completely, and ignores a whip if I carry one (or explodes off bucking if I actually use it).

This is a mare who you could steer off your seat, and who I previously could mentally think of our gait and she would respond. We’ve brought her along slow and steadily, and once we started doing canter work (which was hard!) she started balking and it’s been downhill ever since.

I’m beyond frustrated and beyond discouraged :no:. Open to any and all suggestions.

[sascha]

1. Stifle ligaments.

2. EPSM

3. Hindgut ulcers.

Given that you said it started with the canter work, my money lies fairly evenly with choices 1 and 2 or a combination thereof. Hmm, maybe a nickel more on stifle ligaments needing help. And, yes, they can trot up sound, flex fine, and still need them done. Hoping that’s what it is because it’s an easy fix.

[partlycloudy]

Does she do this when your coach rides? Have you tried different saddles ( I know you said you had it fitted, but just covering all bases) go with other horses? Ie follow another more experienced one?

Ive had this happen too ( usually mares!) And also used the person on ground with lunge whip tactic.

Hang in there, they usually grow out of it.

[luvmyhackney]

Have you tried getting her out of the ring, on a trail ride, or even playing follow the leader?? She sounds bored and just lost interest. You can play follow the leader in the ring with one or two other horses. Make it fun, instead of work.

[Huntin_Pony]

I would find someone who is VERY proficient at groundwork ala Ray Hunt/Buck Brannaman and have that person spend some time with your mare. Be very cautious to find someone with years of experience and good references and watch the person work with another horse first. The trainer should be calm and clear and the work should result in a relaxed horse that’s working better than at the beginning of the session - always.

Such groundwork exercises are likely to be just what your horse needs. To see exactly what exercises I refer to, take a look at Melanie Smith-Taylor’s book “Riding with Life.” This is a fabulous book with crystal-clear explanations and photos as well as the answer to “why” these things are important and what they will do for your ridden work.

Where are you in Ontario? I have a friend there who might be able to recommend someone. PM if you’d prefer.

[Countrywood]

Have you tried jumping her including free jumping? Does not have to be high, small x rails very low but my horse who used to balk like crazy about canter loved jumping from day one which cured it. I am not a jumper so I would free jump him and on lunge line, I will hop over low x rails or rails riding though and occasionally I have hunter rider ride him over low courses.

See if she will canter if you introduce some jumps, and does she canter okay at liberty in field?

[princessfluffybritch]

Does she do this when your trainer rides her? How about if some knowledgeable rider got on her? Is it just for you?

If her responses have completely changed for what seems to be little reason, it may be medical.

Think about your riding. Do you approach everything as “you will do it even if we have to be out here til the cows come home”? Are you afraid of her? Are you telling her to go (but really meaning don’t go or don’t kill me?) I had a horse once that would go immediately for me, and when my husband got on he would not move. I told hubby “he doesn’t believe you”. Would doing lots of transitions help? If not medical, I look at things like that as if you can feel a fly, and pretend you don’t feel my aids, then you’re disrespecting me.

The most important thing is whether it’s medical or just plain disrespect.

[tolts4fun]

I had a mare like this, too. She was extremely stubborn and had low confidence. Unlike your mare, mine was a bit spoiled as a youngster, so we had to start from the beginning. A couple weeks after I brought her home, she was charging at me on the lunge line and pinning her ears back to every upward transition. I had my vet thoroughly check her out for any pain, and when I realized she was just testing me, I had a very good cowboy-type trainer (like huntin’ pony suggests) restart her. After a couple of sessions with him, she was great to lunge with her ears up the whole time. We slowly made progress under saddle, too. My dressage instructor had to use the whip sometimes for upward transitions (she would stop and plant all four legs), but after a couple of months, I could ask her to do anything without a fuss. We spent a lot of time doing walk-trot transitions as she built up her strength and courage. It probably took 6 months before I started asking for canter.

Consistency and going back to the basics really worked for me and my mare. I also tried to get her out on the trail two times a week to keep her work interesting. Of course, we would go out with a friend because I was afraid of her planting her legs out on the trail (then I would be in a real pickle). At first, she would only follow the other horse, but after a while, I was able to ask her to lead on the trail. It really helped her confidence, and after a year, she was a really good horse.

Good luck with your mare! The time you spend working with her will be rewarding, and soon you will both be happy in the ring again!

[merrygoround]

This sounds as though it may be a situation where you may need to find a person capable of sitting out her bucks and have them gently work with her. However, be aware that there can be regression any time she finds the work difficult.

My go to at times like this is to shorten rein, put their nose to my knee and kick them forward in a very small circle. Just get those feet to move.

[cnm161]

My mare went through this*. Merrygoround’s is very good advice:

[QUOTE=merrygoround;8535076]
My go to at times like this is to shorten rein, put their nose to my knee and kick them forward in a very small circle. Just get those feet to move.[/QUOTE]

I couldn’t leave the back door open at all-- no tipping forward with my upper body or rocking forward on my seatbones, or she’d slam the brakes on. For a while I rode with the image of an eventer down a bank, saying to myself, “My pony will not persuade me to unplug my core so that she can duck behind my leg.”

And you have to have good timing. There’s a moment right before they stop where you can change what’s about to happen: either you can LY or turn or keep the feet going, or you lose it and they slam on the brakes. It’s not giving in to terrorism if you change the subject when things get tough, so long as you are on the whole expanding the rideable range of your horse and not letting the horse draw those boundaries inwards.

*In the interest of honesty… Sometimes it comes back, like when I’m asking for half-steps and PONY SAYS NO. But for the most part it’s all good.

[beau159]

@Cataluna;8534688

Once she gets “stuck” she flat out ignores leg completely, and ignores a whip if I carry one (or explodes off bucking if I actually use it).

Teach her to disengage her hindquarters. Help her get “unstuck”.

If you KNOW that she’s know what you want but is flat out refusing to do it, then you need to get after her. Or, if you don’t feel comfortable potentially riding out a buck, then find someone who is.

There’s definately a difference between a horse that is green and doesn’t know what they don’t know – and the horse that is green but fully well knows you want them to go forward. Sounds like yours is the latter.

I’d ask nicely once, and then get after with the whip, my leg, or whatever it may be. This is where disengaging the hindquarters works well because you can keep yourself “safe” by bending her nose around, and moving that butt. If they are stepping sideways with their hindquarters and properly disengaging, it makes it very difficult for them to buck.

I am also curious if she does this only with you, or with anyone who rides her.

[see_u_at_x]

[QUOTE=merrygoround;8535076]
This sounds as though it may be a situation where you may need to find a person capable of sitting out her bucks and have them gently work with her. However, be aware that there can be regression any time she finds the work difficult.

My go to at times like this is to shorten rein, put their nose to my knee and kick them forward in a very small circle. Just get those feet to move.[/QUOTE]

I’m going through this exact thing with my young horse right now and this is what I have done. (And he is smart and super sweet, too, but he’s going through a phase.) I have also hired a professional event rider to come out and ride him through his little stubborn streak. She said that he really has no inclination to buck or rear, but I really wasn’t sure about that either way while I was riding him. The last thing I’m going to do is ask him to do something in a way in which I’m not able to handle the response.

[netg]

[QUOTE=merrygoround;8535076]
This sounds as though it may be a situation where you may need to find a person capable of sitting out her bucks and have them gently work with her. However, be aware that there can be regression any time she finds the work difficult.

My go to at times like this is to shorten rein, put their nose to my knee and kick them forward in a very small circle. Just get those feet to move.[/QUOTE]

This is how I solve it, too. If gives them a very clear movement direction which is hard to resist and doesn’t involve fights and lots of violent bucking.

I would just make sure to look at how you’re riding to create this problem, and fix it. Rarely is it a horse attitude problem, though usually it is an attitude problem.

I say that because I created this problem in my mare. In her case, I was riding her more like my older, stronger, more developed gelding. And she was sitting as much as she could, but in doing so lost forward. So she would try to go backward or just not move - because she didn’t see a way she COULD go forward. Any time I’m trying to get something out of her and she doesn’t understand, and doesn’t see a way to give a correct response, her response is to stop. So I have to remember I create that, and I prevent it by making sure I don’t ask for too much sit or anything else, and to make sure I praise effort even if it’s not what I want - so she sees try is good, even if not what I want yet. She’s a very good girl who will try her heart out, as long as I don’t confuse her or ask for more than she can give. And I believe most horses are the same.

[islandhorsegirl]

I didn’t see mention of a repro exam (but I only skimmed). Have her hormone levels been checked? Her ovaries? Have you tried something like regumate?

Also, how about her selenium levels?

[Melissa.Van_Doren]

I would simply get her out of the arena and onto trails (or dirt roads, or even a large field) with an easy-going but forward lead horse. Let her find her gears again and refresh herself mentally.

[meupatdoes]

Tie it to a tree at the end of the driveway with a sign that says “FREE HORSE,” and get yourself something that wants to play.

I mean, obviously that is tongue in cheek, but if she truly doesn’t want to play, why make her? Do everyone a favor and get something else.

[piedmontfields]

OP, without further information from you, it is hard to respond. Your situation is certainly fairly common, but I think the question “is it physical or is it me/trainer?” is very fair. Sasha summarized several common physical symptoms.

[exploding_pony]

I have a very fancy mare who went through something similar. It was awful.

She just very slowly stopped going forward and got very cranky under saddle. I tried for two years to figure out the core issue. I won’t even tell you the vet bills, new saddles - it was insane. And we never found a smoking gun, though my instincts are that it is a combination of stifles and hind gut ulcers. She had two full nuclear scans if that gives you any sense of how hard we tried to resolve the physical issues.

I finally gave up and turned her out. Bred her and now two years later have a trainer trying again (she last competed in 2010). I only get on her 1-2 times a month, I let the trainers do all the other riding. It’s been about six months and so far so good, but I am being very very careful and trying hard not to get my hopes up.

The thing is, I have never been clear how much was physical and how much was her telling me NO and me not getting her through it. It was a combination.

Current program is very unique - very forward but compassionate. Not sure how many trainers could pull this off.

[Kathy_Nebel]

I feel your pain. I could have your horse’s twin brother. My boy was started under saddle with no drama. I trail rode him a bit as a three year old and was encouraged to start him in dressage training. He was never very forward, but as time went on he got downright balky. His canter was awful; I didn’t think he would ever learn to canter. As time went by his NOs got louder and louder. He made it very clear that he didn’t want to do the work. At that point I should have listened to my gut that something was wrong with him, but instead was persuaded that it was his attitude. (I still feel guilty about this.). He began nipping and bucking as well as not wanting to go forward. It came to a head when I was bucked off in a lesson and hurt enough that I couldn’t ride for awhile. When I got back on on he REFUSED to move. Use a little leg and he kicked out; use the whip and he bucked. He just planted his four feet. Even leading him was tough.

Over the next year I tried to figure out what was wrong. Saddle fitter, dentist, vet, chiro, cranial-sacro, cowboy ground work. I still had a very unhappy horse that didn’t move. Tight muscles were identified and I felt at times there was some temporary improvement, but no real “fix.”

I finally used a certified rehab vet. She found lots of issues – he was locked up front to back. I don’t know what injury may have started this syndrome and at this point it didn’t matter. Her program worked because she gave me exercises and acupressure points to do with him every day. That began last January.

Next I had to teach him that moving forward would not hurt. I started with ground driving. A friend worked with him and then taught me. He moved nicely forward without me in the saddle. (I had tried lunging, but circles were painful for him.)

I proceeded to trail riding. LOTS of trail riding. This horse would put on the breaks if I even tried to lead him to the dressage arena, so when I did start doing some work at home I stuck to the fields. It is just now that I can actually ride him into the arena and work in it. I still don’t canter him in the arena; I save that for the trail or field.

My horse is much happier, demonstrated by no nipping and no bucking (knock wood). I do find that his stifles get sore so I watch them and have started stepping over cavelleti to strengthen them.

Long story, but I encourage you to dig deeper for a cause of the behavior and once you know that is fixed, help her relearn that she can move without hurting.

Wishing you the best of luck!

[CFFarm]

Good advice posted so far and nothing much to add.

You say she’s green and was fine until the canter work. Something in the canter work has either scared or hurt her. Bumped in the mouth? Bounce in the saddle? Ill-fitting saddle? Unbalanced rider? Bad footing? Her perhaps she is bored or feels under pressure.

How old? Background?

There’s a lot you can try. The small circles or tight bending at the halt will put her off balance enough that she has to move her feet. Make a big fuss when she does. Ask her to walk on. She doesn’t? Tight circles again. Get her to move her feet.

I would get her out of the arena and trail ride or hack around the property for a couple of weeks before going back then I would change things up. Mount away from the arena. Cavaletti one day. Trail ride the next. Longe work next day, etc… Quit on a good note even if you have to back up a step.

Work on the longe I would think play and try not to get too upset