The Triple Crown Races 2019

[Rackonteur]

So, if it came to trial and COTH were the jury, would we still be debating this? Would we be a hung jury and would the judge have to dismiss us and set a re-trial?

I just listened to a little bit of Jerry Bailey’s interview with some TV guy about the race and he mentioned the fall in the Oaks. Did anyone lodge an objection or inquiry there?

I don’t think the Derby was any different even though what we’re discussing happened near the end of the race instead of right at the beginning. We could debate that the clipping of heels and the fall did impact the results of the Oaks. But we’re not. With some people, the difference hangs on the timing of the Derby incident.

But THERE WAS NO FALL. War of Will did not go down. There was no pile-up. No jockey was unseated, no horse went down, no one was hurt. Watching the race again in slo-mo just now I wondered if maybe Maximum Security spooked at the white thing on the pole just inside the infield rail. Who knows? I didn’t see any plastic Walmart bags flying around.

I did see a seagull or some bird fly along above the horses in – I think – the 1964 Belmont but nobody freaked out.

I think the stewards should have let the results stand and then put this race down in the books as setting a precedent for a ruling should – in the next 145 years – another colt spook coming off the far turn and drift wide.

Or – listening to Jerry Bailey’s take on it – maybe we should equip race horses with little beepers like cars have now to warn the jockey that the horse is drifting out of his lane – which are not marked anyway because this is not Track & Field!

When I watch the Grand National each year, flat races look a bit wussy in comparison. In the National loose horses run with the pack and jump with the pack and nobody cries foul. Horses fall, and jockeys come off, at nearly every fence. It is what it is.

Either we need to keep running these animals, and realize a race is a controlled stampede, or we need to declare animal cruelty and stop racing them altogether.

“The race is to the swift,” and life is risky. Either run with the big dogs or leave your horse in the pasture.

[LaurieB]

@Rackonteur

So, if it came to trial and COTH were the jury, would we still be debating this? Would we be a hung jury and would the judge have to dismiss us and set a re-trial?

I just listened to a little bit of Jerry Bailey’s interview with some TV guy about the race and he mentioned the fall in the Oaks. Did anyone lodge an objection or inquiry there?

I don’t think the Derby was any different even though what we’re discussing happened near the end of the race instead of right at the beginning. We could debate that the clipping of heels and the fall did impact the results of the Oaks. But we’re not. With some people, the difference hangs on the timing of the Derby incident.

But there was an officlal inquiry after the finish of the Oaks. The stewards ruled that Positive Spirit was interfered with causing her to fall. Jaywalk, one of the race favorites who had caused the problem, was disqualified from her 6th place finish to last place.

Here’s the race chart: http://www.equibase.com/static/chart…50319USA11.pdf

Both the Derby and the Oaks were treated the same way with respect to officlal oversight.

[Rackonteur]

@LaurieB

You don’t have to be one of the “all time greats” to win the Kentucky Derby. Mine That Bird proved that. So did Giacomo.

Aristides set the precedent for that. How often has the Derby winner not been one of the “greats” – before or after, on the track or in the breeding shed.

[Rackonteur]

@LaurieB

But there was an officlal inquiry after the finish of the Oaks. The stewards ruled that Positive Spirit was interfered with causing her to fall. Jaywalk, one of the race favorites who had caused the problem, was disqualified from her 6th place finish to last place.

Here’s the race chart: http://www.equibase.com/static/chart…50319USA11.pdf

Both the Derby and the Oaks were treated the same way with respect to officlal oversight.

Thanks. I missed that. Oops.

[Where_sMyWhite]

I was gonna add that it seems often when a horse goes down, the inquiry is lit shortly thereafter even if it appears the fall was due to a catastrophic injury.

[avjudge]

@Rackonteur

“The race is to the swift,” and life is risky. Either run with the big dogs or leave your horse in the pasture.

If you’re quoting, I assume you mean Ecclesiastes: “I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong . . . but time and chance happeneth to them all.”

Does seem appropriate to this year’s Derby.

[Sparrowette]

@avjudge

If you’re quoting, I assume you mean Ecclesiastes: “I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong . . . but time and chance happeneth to them all.”

Does seem appropriate to this year’s Derby.

Yup… This^^

[Rackonteur]

@avjudge

If you’re quoting, I assume you mean Ecclesiastes: “I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong . . . but time and chance happeneth to them all.”

Does seem appropriate to this year’s Derby.

Well, then, obviously I was not quoting from Ecclesiastes!

I think it was a horse race novel but I have read too many of those to remember which and when. FAIK the author was misquoting Solomon!

[mommy_peanut]

https://www.horseracingnation.com/ne…ockey_Saez_123

Interesting that Tyler deleted his tweet about making a hole where there wasn’t one…
I still believe that MS was reacting to getting run up on by WOW…

[LaurieB]

@mommy peanut

https://www.horseracingnation.com/ne…ockey_Saez_123

Interesting that Tyler deleted his tweet about making a hole where there wasn’t one…
I still believe that MS was reacting to getting run up on by WOW…

The only thing I know about the tweet is what is written in the article you cited–which does not say that Tyler was making a hole where there wasn’t one.

Here is the direct quote from the article:
“An early portion of the video also points to a now-deleted tweet from Gaffalione in which he says he was “anticipating a spot” with War of Will. “You can clearly see Luis Saez is pulling him back in,” Gaffalione added. “You have to remember this all happens in a matter of seconds going 40 mph.”

If I say that I am anticipating that a red light will turn green, that doesn’t mean I am running the red light.

Big difference.

[LaurieB]

Country House has been taken to Rood & Riddle. He won’t run in the Belmont either,

http://live.drf.com/nuggets/47999-country-house-being-treated-at-rood-and-riddle-will-bypass-belmont-focus-on-summer-fall-campaign-per-mott

[dressagetraks]

Something that occurred to me today.

Many contracts I have ever signed contained a phrase like, “In the event of any dispute, parties agree to have it settled by John Doe Arbitration rather than court.”

I’ve never been licensed as an owner to race in Kentucky nor any other state. But does anyone know if Kentucky’s contract for owners contains such a clause?

If so, getting this to court, which the Wests seem to want to do, rather than John Doe Arbitration might be difficult.

On the other hand, he obviously agreed when signing that owner license request form to abide by the rules of the Kentucky Racing Commission, one of which is that the decision of the stewards is final and not up for appeal, and he’s already clearly intending to dispute that part despite having signed it.

[Rackonteur]

The sooner the Belmont is run and won, the better.

Maybe next year people won’t go so Triple Crown crazy.

[Palm_Beach]

@dressagetraks

Something that occurred to me today.

Many contracts I have ever signed contained a phrase like, “In the event of any dispute, parties agree to have it settled by John Doe Arbitration rather than court.”

I’ve never been licensed as an owner to race in Kentucky nor any other state. But does anyone know if Kentucky’s contract for owners contains such a clause?

If so, getting this to court, which the Wests seem to want to do, rather than John Doe Arbitration might be difficult.

On the other hand, he obviously agreed when signing that owner license request form to abide by the rules of the Kentucky Racing Commission, one of which is that the decision of the stewards is final and not up for appeal, and he’s already clearly intending to dispute that part despite having signed it.

Owners are not under contract. You apply for a license, and if you are not too much of a hardened criminal, you get one.

[LaurieB]

@dressagetraks

Something that occurred to me today.

Many contracts I have ever signed contained a phrase like, “In the event of any dispute, parties agree to have it settled by John Doe Arbitration rather than court.”

I’ve never been licensed as an owner to race in Kentucky nor any other state. But does anyone know if Kentucky’s contract for owners contains such a clause?

If so, getting this to court, which the Wests seem to want to do, rather than John Doe Arbitration might be difficult.

On the other hand, he obviously agreed when signing that owner license request form to abide by the rules of the Kentucky Racing Commission, one of which is that the decision of the stewards is final and not up for appeal, and he’s already clearly intending to dispute that part despite having signed it.

@dressagetraks, I tried to copy and paste what an owner agrees to when he/she signs an application for a license in Kentucky (any kind of racing related license since it’s all the same application) but I couldn’t make it happen. So here’s a link to the application itself.

http://khrc.ky.gov/Forms%20Library/K…pplication.pdf

You do sign away some rights, but disputes–and who will handle them–aren’t mentioned.

[atl_hunter]

@mommy peanut

https://www.horseracingnation.com/ne…ockey_Saez_123

Interesting that Tyler deleted his tweet about making a hole where there wasn’t one…
I still believe that MS was reacting to getting run up on by WOW…

So do I. You may find this very interesting - from the attorney of Luis Saez: https://www.courier-journal.com/vide…xETLlBzm41PptM

[Pronzini]

@LaurieB

@dressagetraks, I tried to copy and paste what an owner agrees to when he/she signs an application for a license in Kentucky (any kind of racing related license since it’s all the same application) but I couldn’t make it happen. So here’s a link to the application itself.

http://khrc.ky.gov/Forms%20Library/K…pplication.pdf

You do sign away some rights, but disputes–and who will handle them–aren’t mentioned.

There is no option for a dispute because there is no provision for a dispute.

“I agree to comply with all rules, regulations, statutes and steward’s judge’s directives related to Kentucky racing.”

This is a steward’s direction.

[Laurierace]

@Rackonteur

The sooner the Belmont is run and won, the better.

Maybe next year people won’t go so Triple Crown crazy.

I don’t understand this comment. The Belmont will be ran in four weeks like every year so won’t really change anything. Are you saying that you hope that people will be so turned off by what happened this year that they won’t even bother watching next year?

[Where_sMyWhite]

At this point, for me, I wish they’d all just stop. I don’t care anymore what the media says. I don’t care what the attorneys say; they’re just putting their appropriate party’s spin on things (as they should). Are the involved parties potentially leaving a negative taste in the public’s mouth for the ongoing drama? Very easily yes.

The race was run, the horse crossing the finish line first was set down due to interference based on a unanimous steward’s decision.

Could things have been handled differently? Probably. Was the right decision made? IMO, yes.

Done, move on.

Too bad that Country House won’t be running in the Belmont. I’d have liked to have seen how he handled the distance of 1 1/2 miles vs the 1 1/4.

[Maythehorsebewithme]

@Where'sMyWhite

At this point, for me, I wish they’d all just stop. I don’t care anymore what the media says. I don’t care what the attorneys say; they’re just putting their appropriate party’s spin on things (as they should). Are the involved parties potentially leaving a negative taste in the public’s mouth for the ongoing drama? Very easily yes.

The race was run, the horse crossing the finish line first was set down due to interference based on a unanimous steward’s decision.

Could things have been handled differently? Probably. Was the right decision made? IMO, yes.

Done, move on.

Too bad that Country House won’t be running in the Belmont. I’d have liked to have seen how he handled the distance of 1 1/2 miles vs the 1 1/4.

Yes! Yes! Yes! This is exactly how I feel!