A friend just came back from her annual trip to North Carolina’s Currituck Outer Banks and she brought me a brochure on the horses.
It says the animals are classified as “Colonial Spanish Mustangs” per inspections in 2007 by The Horse of Americas’ Registry & the American Indian horse Registry.
DB - isn’t this the same breed you breed? Or is it a different strain? I thought yours came from out West somewhere.
The brochure also said ship’s logs have documentation of horses being pushed overboard from Spanish ships to refloat grounded ships and that some were left behind when Spanish settlements failed.
Would be interesting as some of the foundation blood for what eventually became the QH was reportedly Spanish blood from Florida and Georgia area Spanish settlements that ended up in the hands of the Indian tribes of that area and were then crossed with the TB blood from the colonial imports from England…and a later second strong infusion of Spanish blood from the SW with the horses from Mexico/California areas.
Ok, I was actually part of the inspection team back in 2007 when the HOA registry went out there. It was quite interesting and we looked at a lot of horses as well as skeletal remains.
Yes the horses are definitely descendants of Spanish horses left behind when explorers came to the Chesapeake region hundreds of years ago. They were here when Jamestown was settled and early Colonial horses, here in the East, carried a lot of “Banker” blood. Other landrace breeds like Marsh Tackies came out of the same gene pool but diverged a bit as they were kept by people and bred for certain traits. Native American ponies like the Chickasaws were definitely of Spanish blood from this region and were crossed with the early TB’s in this region an were known as the Colonial Short horse…or eventually the Quarter horse.
I disagree a bit with their name of Colonial Spanish Mustangs. To me, they are a landrace (which means an isolated breed that developed in a certain region) and one of the dozens of such breeds or landraces that are part of the Colonial Spanish horse family. I prefer to call them what they were called for hundreds of years…Bankers…for the Outer banks where they lived. What I consider “Spanish Mustangs” are the horses of Western regions that are somewhat larger and have some native American strains in them also. The whole name issue is a big point of contention amongst us preservationists, and it can nearly bring folks to blows. Kind of like warmblood politics.
I was not consulted when the folks in NC got them recognized at the NC State Horse as Colonial Spanish Mustangs. I think it is confusing…and would have argued that point…much more so than it needs to be. I think they were hoping by emphasizing the feral part of their history to win them protection and more habitat but I am not sure that strategy will work. Their future, if there is one, is in the hands of dedicated people to keep them from becoming more inbred than they are now and helping to preserve the bloodlines. I’ve been out there and have pics of ponies grazing in front yards of beach houses and every year more and more are killed by autos or idiots who intentionally try to harm them. :no:
The Bankers are smaller than the Western Spanish Mustangs in general…most are 13 to 13:2 hands while the western horses can run up to 15 to 15:2 with average around 14:2. The western horses like I have are a bit more typey…look more Spanish to me…but the Bankers are way more inbred so some of that coarseness is certainly from that. I’ve seen pictures of Bankers from the 1970’s before the herds were fragmented so badly by development and they were some seriously typey lovely Spanish horses at that time.
Bankers are probably pretty close cousins to what I have, and DNA tests have shown the Bankers cluster more to Peruvian Pasos than anything else. Another point to remember is that the Spanish explorers brought several breeds…from utility horses to war horses…and when they got lose or were taken by Indians, they intermixed, adapted to their environment and became the unique breeds/landraces they are now.
Certain regions have horses that tend to be heavier, and others a bit lighter. My horses are heavy on Southwestern blood which is considered to be “Barb” blood and they are more lightly built than the Choctaw strains of the midwest. The gaited lines are thought to have more Ginette blood…Ginettes are now extinct but live on in their gaited descendants. Spanish Barbs are also extinct in Spain and probably the closest you will get to the old breed today are the Southwestern type Spanish Mustangs.
So that was a long winded answer…yes they are related but no they are not the same. Some people would like to label them as the same thing but I would not want to see that. I definitely agree in the shared heritage but not that they are the same breed by today’s definition.
This was really interesting to read about! I’ve been going to the obx for the past 20 years and always love to see the ponies.
Of course when I was about 12, we were able to get close enough to give them some scritches…and thats about the time my sister and I realized they were gelded and not “wild” ponies, as everyone had told us!
I still love to see them in Corolla and have pictures of them from the past 10 years or so. Theyre beautiful out there on the beaches!
DB – thanks for your input. I knew you’d have the skinny on these guys!
Your first point brings up something I hadn’t really thought about before…obviously if the Spanish were dumping horses overboard, they would NOT pick their finest. Instead, I’m thinking they would part with the lesser quality first: the work horses, pack horses, etc.
They certainly weren’t going to dump their finest blooded stock. So that means the foundation horses weren’t top drawer in terms of quality to begin with. In fact, more likely of “cull” quality.
Over the years (even over the centuries), is there any record of the locals having added improvement stock to the herds to raise the quality of the animals? Or is the blood all from the original Spanish (dumped) horses?
As far as the inbreeding, how are these horses more inbred than any other group who were restricted geographically? I’m probably wrong on this, but isn’t that what created the “purity” of other mustang groups like the Kigers and Steens?
The way I understand it is that in these cases their physical location prevented (or at least greatly lessened) their opportunity to breed to other outside stock, thus creating their “purity”…and along with that, their type (and thus) a “breed”.
Or was there more involved?
Size. I know this can be true with mustangs in general, but have you found that the heights of your breed have increased after several generations in domestisity simply as a result of better nutrition? At this point, you probably have a number of horses who are several generations away from their “wild caught” ancestors – are they producing taller stock now or would you say their height tends to be genetically fixed?
Are there private breeders out there today who are breeding these Outer Bank horses like you are breeding your Spanish Colonials?
As for “Ginettes” – is that the same as “jennets”? I remember seeing the term quite abit in many of the historical novels I use to read when I was younger. As I recall they were described as small, placid, gaited mounts favored for the high-born ladies (or other “non-riders” such as important church officals, etc) of the time.
Were they an actual “breed” or just a type?
IMO this is fascinating stuff. Not neccessarily because of the breeds themselves (although that can be interesting), but more because of the insight this can give us into breeding in general – the effects of stuff like inbreeding, nutrition, character traits, etc. when the “breeder” is Nature instead of Man.
Yes and no. If the military was involved, they would have been on fine blooded stock. Most of the early explorations were by their conquistadors. The warhorse of Spain of that time was considered the finest horse in the world…the Spanish Barb. OK…also too in those early trips, they could not reload the horses onto the ships so they all had to be abandoned. I’d imagine there were some very nice horses early on but later when settlements were started, then you would see the utility animals.
In the West the Indians stole horses also and no doubt they got some good horses also from military sources…as well as haciendas, bloodstock, etc… I do think that the persisting Spanish settlements in the West and Southwest are why we see the more Barb types in that region…they had more of the gentry type horses in them.
[quote=Kyzteke;5743261]Over the years (even over the centuries), is there any record of the locals having added improvement stock to the herds to raise the quality of the animals? Or is the blood all from the original Spanish (dumped) horses?
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The only area I know of outside stock being added is Chincoteague and Assiteague (sp?)…not the Outer Banks…but it’s inevitable that some non Bankers got in there. Their influence was not great though as still today the herd is very uniform. The known recent additions of outside stock is one reason why the Chincoteague ponies are not being conserved by the HOA and Col. Spanish groups.
[quote=Kyzteke;5743261]As far as the inbreeding, how are these horses more inbred than any other group who were restricted geographically? I’m probably wrong on this, but isn’t that what created the “purity” of other mustang groups like the Kigers and Steens?
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The inbreeding has not become a major issue until recently when the herds became fragmented by development. At one time, the Bankers stretched from VA to SC but now there are only two small isolated herds…Corolla and Shackleford. The Corolla horses are kept at 60 horses and experts argue that is not enough to protect viability of genetics but the island can’t sustain many more than maybe 80 at best.
To some degree all the landraces are inbred but to much lesser degrees until you get to a number where it’s no longer sustainable.
[quote=Kyzteke;5743261]The way I understand it is that in these cases their physical location prevented (or at least greatly lessened) their opportunity to breed to other outside stock, thus creating their “purity”…and along with that, their type (and thus) a “breed”.
Or was there more involved?
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No that is about how it happened but the population was large enough that you did not see negative effects of the inbreeding but rather a fixing of type like you’d see in a good inbreeding program. Keep in mind also that Mother Nature was ruthless in culling “mistakes” so few genetic problem horses would ever survive to reproduce.
[quote=Kyzteke;5743261]Size. I know this can be true with mustangs in general, but have you found that the heights of your breed have increased after several generations in domestisity simply as a result of better nutrition? At this point, you probably have a number of horses who are several generations away from their “wild caught” ancestors – are they producing taller stock now or would you say their height tends to be genetically fixed?
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I think it’s a bit of both. Better feed certainly will cause domestically raised Spanish Mustangs to sometimes increase in size but they are pretty consistently “smaller.” In other words, we might have seen a hand or less of increase in size since they came off the ranges. Larger horses were also culled as that was not desirable…so if something shot up to 16 hands, it was immediately suspect as “not straight” and taken from any breeding program…at least most breeders did…not all.
[quote=Kyzteke;5743261]Are there private breeders out there today who are breeding these Outer Bank horses like you are breeding your Spanish Colonials?
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Yes…several folks are involved and they are actively seeking more. Here is a local person involved in the Banker offsite breeding program. I know him personally.
He has reported that his domestic foals are getting bigger and it may well be with some time they will catch up to their western cousins. The Shackleford stock is even smaller than the Corollas and he’s been crossing the two lines.
[quote=Kyzteke;5743261]As for “Ginettes” – is that the same as “jennets”? I remember seeing the term quite abit in many of the historical novels I use to read when I was younger. As I recall they were described as small, placid, gaited mounts favored for the high-born ladies (or other “non-riders” such as important church officals, etc) of the time.
Were they an actual “breed” or just a type?
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I don’t know if they were a breed or a type honestly…there can be some muddling of the two…I suspect they were a type personally with regional breeds but I honestly don’t know…kind of like a Paso Fino, Peruvian Paso, etc… I do know that there are none left unchanged from 500 years ago.
[quote=Kyzteke;5743261]IMO this is fascinating stuff. Not neccessarily because of the breeds themselves (although that can be interesting), but more because of the insight this can give us into breeding in general – the effects of stuff like inbreeding, nutrition, character traits, etc. when the “breeder” is Nature instead of Man.
[/quote]
It really is fascinating to me also. Keep in mind also the genetic treasures that these landraces represent. I also have found the Spanish Mustangs to be absolutely the neatest horses I’ve ever been around…in terms of training, riding, intelligence, etc…they are different and people generally don’t get it until they own one or are around them long enough.
This article was recently reworked and republished by Dr. Sponenburg. It’s a discussion of the landrace breeds known as Colonial Spanish. It’s worth the read if you find this sort of thing interesting.
I spent my summers in VA as a kid and one of the high lights of the year was to go over to the shore to watch the Chincoteague ponies swim over for pony penning and auction.
This group of ponies has had infusions of welsh and arabian blood so some of them are quite typey. Mostly pintos.
In fact there is a Chincoteague pony showing in the NE that has won a lot as a childrens pony hunter.
Just to be clear…when I am describing a Colonial Spanish horse, Banker or Spanish Mustang as typey, I mean it shows clear Spanish type and traits. IOW, it looks like a Spanish horse. My horses have been mistaken for Lusitanos and Pasos many times at first glance by other horsepeople.
I know you mention the chincoteague pony having infused blood of other breeds…which was done with the noblest of intentions in keeping the breed from inbreeding and adding some desirable traits…
You can find some CP’s still that are abit of a throwback to their spanish roots…some clearly show the arab influence or mustang influence…but still others seem to have a small spanish influence to them.
Can you post a link to what you would consider a “true” looking spanish mustang? like yours?
edit-saw your guys…interesting how one looks “paso-y” to me and the other looks like an andy or lustiano. is the difference in body type common or due to age?
spin and slide…within our breed, we have different types also. Some are a bit stockier and some leaner…some leggier, etc… What they have in common though is a similar build and structure…the hip, head, back, shoulder, etc…in certain ratios and looks. They also have the right type as you clearly saw “Spanish” when looking at them but identified them as either a Paso type of a Lusitano/Andy type. What you saw was a difference in bloodlines and types…not age related. I’m guessing you were looking at my stallions. The buckskin is of 75% Southwestern (Sulphur/bookcliffs) lines and the bay is about half Choctaw and half Southwestern.
Within our breed there is a bit more variation than some but we are working on trying to encourage breeders to be more consistent with our breed standard. The American Heritage Horse Assoc. (AHHA) conducts inspections and approvals of all breeding stock and we have a scoring system that is available to all members to review.
Here is a link to this registry of which I’m a founding member. You can open the breed standard and see what we are looking for.
I am sure that some Chincoteagues still show Spanish traits. That is some seriously potent blood and we’ve found that even part breds can look quite close to purebreds. I’m not knocking the Chincoteagues at all but just stating that they were known to have outside blood intentionally added whereas the Bankers did not. It’s a shame back when it was done, that they didn’t bring in Banker stock instead as they might have kept that herd viable genetically but kept it Colonial Spanish. Back then folks did not realize the value of the landrace breeds as they do now and at the time adding totally unrelated breeds might have seemed like a good idea. We lost many of the wild Spanish Mustang herds to crossbreeding also with ranch stock…either by plan or by accident.
DDB, do you know if anyone captively breeds the Shackleford ponies?
I’ve had the opportunity to go out to Shackleford a few times, and it is really interesting how the ponies interact with both each other and people. They did look very Paso-ish to me, with an amazing range of colors, all just about 14-14.2 hands.
They didn’t graze in herds, but in groups of 2-4, and not always in close or visual proximity to each other. They also had absolutely no interest in or reaction to people whatsoever, it was like we just didn’t exist to them. Most people seemed smart enough to give them their distance, but we did see a couple of small children running after them on the beach, and the ponies sped up just enough that the kids couldn’t catch up.
westcoasteventer…Yes the link for Mill Swamp Indian ponies I put up earlier…he is breeding Shacklefords in captivity. The Banker ponies in general do not act much like wild horses. They are quite laid back in temperament also…much more so than most horses.
I read somewhere that they are more vocal than any other breed of horse…the speculation is that they have not had predators after them for a very long time…but I don’t know for certain. Their main danger today is from mankind…his machines and jerks who shoot them for fun. They’ve lost a number in the last few years to malicious shootings and one lovely stallion I knew to being run into and chased by someone on a 4 wheeler. He broke his leg and had to be euthanized. It looked like someone ran into him with the 4 wheeler and he walked, dragging his mangled hind leg, some distance on three legs to get back to his mares…I was told it was a horrible pitiful sight to see him. His name was Speck. This is a photo I took of him in 2007.
Yes, it was your two stallions I was looking at…it was interesting to see how different in body type they were.
That is good the breeders are working towards abit more uniformity…I wish we could get that within the CP breed…but it seems you either like the “new” style or you like the “old” style. I did not know they had inspections and scoring systems, that is very very neat…I always applaud an organization that does this, I think it shows their dedication to “only the best”.
And I surely didnt think you were knocking the CP’s…they do have alot of outside blood…I know the people in charge tried to pick breeds that were “similar” to what the spanish CP was (the arab and the mustang)…but I do understand how that basically made them the red headed stepchild of the breeds of the americas.
Do any of the heritage/spanish mustang/ect organizations recognize the CP? (at least organizations that are legit?) or did the outcrossing kill their chances at being recognized?
Yes it did…at least with the HOA registry. None of the Spanish Mustang focused registries would be interested in them with the known outcrosses also. The American Indian Horse Registry would take them but they are more a theme registry than one based on bloodlines. All they won’t take is anything with draft in it.
[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;5755090]
Yes it did…at least with the HOA registry. None of the Spanish Mustang focused registries would be interested in them with the known outcrosses also. The American Indian Horse Registry would take them but they are more a theme registry than one based on bloodlines. All they won’t take is anything with draft in it.[/QUOTE]
hmm…I see…thanks for the info…alwasy interesting to learn more about this stuff.
